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SamHays1999
Kansas
Post #61
Saturday August 12, 2017 9:21am

Joined May 2017
Total Posts: 104
Original post from dolcem

"A bit?" I think the issue here is that you've grown up in a very conservative area and have a high tolerance for bigotry. Not saying that you're a bigot, but you hear this kind of crap a lot so you think it's not that bad. I'm no PC nazi, and I agree with a lot of the criticisms of how insanely PC our culture has become, but it's important at least make a little bit of effort to be respectful of other people and cultures and not say stuff that you don't think is prejudiced but might actually be, and there should be social pressures against the type of ignorance that was displayed in blaise's posts. The problem with America is that in a lot of regions, it's cool to be a meatheaded bigot (it's seen as masculine), and those values need to change. That means reminding people that it is actually uncool to be a bigot.

The moral condescension of the Democrats was a contributing factor to their loss of the election (by electoral college) but certainly not the reason, as you stated in your post. And I'd say your posts contains more of it as mine did. You might view yourself as more enlightened than both sides in the discourse but you're a little young for that type of thinking.

Only one person called him a klansman (which was wrong) and again, you can't argue that such a response to such blatant racism is nearly as bad as the comments that were made to begin with. The two sides in that argument are not on even moral ground, especially considering that blaise's intention was most likely to troll us. An overreaction on our part is very understandable.

I'd certainly rather be careful about not perpetuating the subtle forms of racism that exist within our culture and defensive of society's most oppressed groups than be a racist. Too much of a good thing (being PC and not being prejudiced) is much preferable to too much of a bad thing (racism).


There's definitely some parts I agree with here. We should be respectful of other people and cultures. We should try to not be prejudice to those people and cultures (and I do find what Blaise said prejudice, I mainly just wholeheartedly disagree with the discussion-ending buzzwords tbat turn off anyone who is neither a Democrat or Republican and especially turns off the Republicans from changing their point of view). But again, on some other parts, I would say we do have the plenty of reminding about it not being cool to be a bigot. We have Hollywood reminding us non stop, we have the political establishment reminding us non stop, we have the media reminding us non stop. What I fear is them misplacing these reminders for non-bigots who just state opinions that really aren't extreme, but the overly PC side just disagrees with and then they try to ruin their lives, calling them Alt-Right when they aren't (I see examples like this with a handful of popular "skeptics", "classical liberals", "libertarians", etc.), trying to get them fired from their jobs (I've seen over a dozen examples of this, including with "classical liberals" who just hate what the Democratic party have become), etc. As for the reasoning Trump won, that's fine if you don't believe it wasn't the reason or the main reason, but personally, I think it was a top 2 reason atleast. On people calling Blaise a Klansman, I could find 2 who pretty much said it (something about him wanting to go back to a time with burning crosses and one about "His hood is showing) and it took a while for anyone to really condemn it (but I'm glad you did). Alright, good discussion here, enjoying it, whether it ends here or not. This is needed desperately in such divided times, true debate.

dolcem
Post #62
Monday August 14, 2017 7:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,729
Original post from SamHays1999

There's definitely some parts I agree with here. We should be respectful of other people and cultures. We should try to not be prejudice to those people and cultures (and I do find what Blaise said prejudice, I mainly just wholeheartedly disagree with the discussion-ending buzzwords tbat turn off anyone who is neither a Democrat or Republican and especially turns off the Republicans from changing their point of view). But again, on some other parts, I would say we do have the plenty of reminding about it not being cool to be a bigot. We have Hollywood reminding us non stop, we have the political establishment reminding us non stop, we have the media reminding us non stop. What I fear is them misplacing these reminders for non-bigots who just state opinions that really aren't extreme, but the overly PC side just disagrees with and then they try to ruin their lives, calling them Alt-Right when they aren't (I see examples like this with a handful of popular "skeptics", "classical liberals", "libertarians", etc.), trying to get them fired from their jobs (I've seen over a dozen examples of this, including with "classical liberals" who just hate what the Democratic party have become), etc. As for the reasoning Trump won, that's fine if you don't believe it wasn't the reason or the main reason, but personally, I think it was a top 2 reason atleast. On people calling Blaise a Klansman, I could find 2 who pretty much said it (something about him wanting to go back to a time with burning crosses and one about "His hood is showing) and it took a while for anyone to really condemn it (but I'm glad you did). Alright, good discussion here, enjoying it, whether it ends here or not. This is needed desperately in such divided times, true debate.


Sure, we do have voices speaking out against bigotry, but it's not enough that just a few celebrities and media outlets say their talking points. It needs to be a cultural change that includes the entire population. Normal, everyday people need to stand up to racism; that's the only way we'll defeat it. Because the more it becomes the job of the media and the celebrities, the more easily the bigots can simply dismiss it as elitism.

Sure, PC culture can go overboard, but again, I'd rather us be too PC than racist. I'm not condoning any of the crazy stuff that happens in this country in the name of PC, but right now we're discussing the racism that occurred in this thread, so I think any discussion of PC is a distraction from that topic.

Only one person made a KKK comment, and we said that it went too far. Tyler's comment did not imply that blaise was a part of the KKK at all, or even that he was a white supremacist. He just said that blaise wishes America was like it was in the 1950's, back when "colored people knew their place in society," or back when America was "great," depending on how you want to phrase it. Was it a bit overboard? Perhaps. But it was incisive and funny. And I'll go back to my previous point. If someone makes a racist comment, there is little wrong with making a witty response about that person being a racist. How else should we respond? Again, your treatment of both sides of the debate as being equal is just completely off-base, and you should admit it. Popular pressure should be against racism and for being PC/respectful. Of course people shouldn't take it too far, but racism is a much bigger problem, and this is why I have a hard time with people that make such a big deal about our overly PC society. Sure it's a problem, but there are much greater injustices out there than people having to watch their words too closely when talking about sensitive issues.

You also have to realize that it's a fundamentally different thing to say something racist versus calling someone a member of the KKK. Racism and hate speech bring up memories of centuries of some of the worst forms of oppression humanity has ever seen. Making a racist comment is about more than the word itself; it digs up these memories and systems of power that reinforce hierarchies that still exist today. Just calling someone a member of the KKK is not hurtful in the same way because the KKK never had to suffer (the Southern political class was full of KKK members). They didn't have to go through centuries of slavery justified by the "scientific" believe that black people were inherently less intelligent than white people, a belief that I would not be surprised if blaise held.

Here's a good Jacobin article that discusses the same issue. Trump and a lot of others out there are trying to frame this as both sides getting out of control, but it's a ridiculous notion. I don't support violence against Nazis but I sure as hell know which side of that fight I would be on. That kind of hatred must be opposed as strongly as possible, and the people fighting it are the good guys and the people on the other side are the bad guys. It's really not the end of the world if the good guys go too far, and the main comment that any sensible person should make about what's going on shouldn't be that we're being unfair to the Nazis, it should be one of outrage that we actually have Nazis in this country.
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