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dolcem
Post #1
Sunday August 25, 2013 11:38am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
All of us here have our favorites...players that we think are really good, players that we think help out the team a lot, players with a style we like for whatever reason. Sometimes we feel these players are underrated by the other fans or we think that the player provides something to the team that other people don't realize. And of course some of these guys are considered by the other fans to be not good enough (ie Adu).

I don't want to be one of those types that posts constantly about a player and try to sell him like they're his agent, so I usually bite my tongue on this one. But I'm going to say it just once, in a thread about him, because he deserves it.

Torres is the most underrated player in the US pool. This is a guy who is consistently started in a very good league with a good style of play since he was a teenager. He was so good Valencia was going to buy him (I know this is an EPL-centric forum but this is Valencia for pete's sake...when have we ever had teams of that caliber buying our players?) but then he injured his foot and lost the chance.

Anyway, our player pool (and soccer culture) is desperately lacking technique, creativity, and passing skills. All good teams have at least a couple creative players (especially attacking midfielders). Players who can make that difference in the final third. A lot of fans recognize this. Many wanted Adu, who has proven time and time again that he isn't a professional soccer player, because we're so desperate for that player. JK thought Torres was so good he could put him at a new position and give him "the keys to the team."

It didn't work because that's not Torres' position. In fact, Torres has never been really utilized correctly on this team. Under Coach Bob he wasn't given a fair shake despite deserving a chance (this was when Coach Bob decided Michael was an automatic starter and other CM's weren't really tested out much). He was barely played, and then after he played well in that Costa Rica game where we tried the 4-3-3 and got walloped in the first half, he was subbed off at half-time as a scapegoat for the goal (that was Mastroeni's fault, who stayed on in the second half instead and totally ran out of gas as he was old and not going to play for us next World Cup) and didn't play again for over a year. He was called up again right before the World Cup but had little practice with the team before he was thrown in the Slovenia match as a deep-lying DM in a 4-4-2 (not really his position). Our style of play (Bradleyball) did not fit his at all so he didn't play well.

Under JK he has always been played out of position, either as an LM or CAM, except for two games. He looked good in both of those matches.

If we took any other CM in our pool and played them on the wing or as a CAM, would they do any better than Torres has? More importantly, if they did not play very well there, would we think they weren't a good player? Williams, Bradley, Klejstan when he was younger...all of these guys were tried on the wing (we don't have depth on the wing, and that's why JK keeps playing Torres and everyone else there) and they couldn't do anything. Nobody thought less of them for it. So why doesn't Torres get fair consideration?

We desperately need creative players who can beat opponents of the dribble and pass the ball well. We have the work ethic, toughness, and athleticism but we're lacking that Latin flair. Torres is EXACTLY that player. Adu would have been even better since he's an attacking mid but it'd be great to have a CM with those skills. Torres is the most technically gifted player in our pool (more than Adu I think because Adu hasn't proven that he can play at a reasonably high level). His dribbling skills are second to none, his touch is impeccable, and his passing is excellent. He even takes better set pieces than anyone in our pool, which we're going to need if we want to make it out of the group stage.

How can people not root for this guy more? After Bradley, Jones, and maybe Cameron he is definitely next on the depth chart. Diskerud and Klejstan to me are similar but more box-to-box players. Torres complements one of the first three I listed better and I think he is definitely a better player than Diskerud or Klejstan. Because the two CM's need to complement each other, I think we should bench Jones in favor of Torres. Have Bradley play as the #6 and Torres as a deep-lying playmaker #8. Having that Xabi Alonso type is so crucial for the 4-5-1...without it, the defense and attack aren't connected and the team can't pass the ball forward well or maintain possession.

Torres, in my book, is definitely a starter. And yet most people here don't even think he deserves to be in the final 23. Maybe I overrated him a bit and maybe a combination of Jones, Bradley, and/or Cameron is best for the team. But I think he deserves a lot more credit and I can't understand why people don't want to see us try him out as a CM.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rjw77
Post #2
Sunday August 25, 2013 1:20pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 264
Torres could complement Bradley in the way you are saying, but I don't think that is our best option. Bradley is the best playmaker of our center midfielders. The qualifier against panama was probably the most exciting game for us to watch because the team played so well. The biggest change from our normal team was cameron in for jones. Cameron played as a true CDM, allowing Bradley to move higher up the pitch where he excelled for us. I don't think we would be utilizing Bradley, our best player, as much as we could if we played his as the #6. So to me its not that torres is bad, and I agree he is a little underrated, its just that with him paired with bradley we wouldn't be getting the most out of bradley.

dolcem
Post #3
Sunday August 25, 2013 4:23pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
Original post from rjw77

Torres could complement Bradley in the way you are saying, but I don't think that is our best option. Bradley is the best playmaker of our center midfielders. The qualifier against panama was probably the most exciting game for us to watch because the team played so well. The biggest change from our normal team was cameron in for jones. Cameron played as a true CDM, allowing Bradley to move higher up the pitch where he excelled for us. I don't think we would be utilizing Bradley, our best player, as much as we could if we played his as the #6. So to me its not that torres is bad, and I agree he is a little underrated, its just that with him paired with bradley we wouldn't be getting the most out of bradley.


Bradley is naturally a #8 box-to-box midfielder who likes to make forward runs. He has gotten better at distributing the ball as well. He is also an excellent #6 and we don't have to absolutely build the team around him to the extent that he needs to play his best position considering how versatile he is. I think he's almost as good a #6 as a #8 and that's how some coaches have seen him (like when he was at Mo'gladbach for example). In a 4-5-1 (especially ours with our lack of creative options) it makes more sense to pair a #6 with a creative, deep-lying playmaker. That's Torres' exact role and I think a Bradley Torres combo (#6 and #8, respectively) would be better for the team than a Cameron Bradley combo (#6 and #8).

Even if you disagree with me and think Torres should be benched so Bradley can be the #8, what happens if Bradley gets injured or suspended? Jones is very similar to Bradley but would you guys rather have Jones playing as a #8 than Torres in that role (with Cameron or Beckerman as a #6, I guess)? Jones isn't quite skilled enough or good at passing to be our #8 IMO.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
Ohana
Post #4
Sunday August 25, 2013 6:24pm

Joined Jun 2013
Total Posts: 12
IMO, the game is moving away from the traditional Platini-style CAM. When those players become available, great, every coach will certainly find a way to use them. The reality is they're rare. In the absence of this kind of player, teams seem to increase the speed of play and the amount of passes. Substitute volume for "quality." This is appealing to coaches to create this type of "system" because the amount of games played is ridiculous. Also yellow card suspensions and injuries, etc. make it difficult to justify centering an attacking philosophy around one player. I'm seeing two types of games played currently: the first type is against a better opponent and the second type is against a lesser opponent. When you're the lesser opponent, you sit back and counter as fast as possible out of the back. When you're the better opponent, sit on top of the defense and pass as fast as possible. Someone figured out that you don't need ONE dominant playmaker if you can get 3 average playmakers doing what the coach tells them to do. Youth development is following this philosophy. Develop technically sound, not dominant, players that play their role (the most important part). I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just starting to think that the "Platini" is currently out of style. Klinsmann is absolutely using the latter system.

bbakerxyz
Post #5
Sunday August 25, 2013 8:37pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
So, what's the point of your thread? Pretty much everyone likes Torres and knows he's a CM. Are you saying he should start in front of Bradley or Jones? Good luck with that. Obviously Juergen likes him. Better for him to play outside mid than sit the bench. Juergen's not an idiot. Of course he knows Torres is better in the center.

Torres probably has more caps and PT than his competition for backup CM, right - Sacha, Mix? If you're a backup, you really need to be able to play a couple of different positions to increase your chances. Why do you think Freddy is never in the conversation - he can only play one position in one type of formation (now, he is great at that position, but that ain't enough). Jeurgen is giving Torres the opportunity to show whether he can play a couple of different positions. He's never going to put Mix or Sacha on the outside.

rainORshine
Post #6
Sunday August 25, 2013 11:42pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
if torres is underrated in general (which i am not sure is really accurate) he is certainly not underrated by JK. JK has given torres every opportunity to cement a spot with this squad and it just has not happened.

torres has started 14 games for JK. what else can a torres fan ask for? (sacha kljestan DREAMS about 14 starts - he has 1)

yes, only 5 of those starts came as a CM, but 3 of those starts came in a 4-4-2 where he had plenty of room to operate and when he plays as a LM, offensively he essentially functions as a CM, pinching central while the LB becomes primary wing option (with RB playing more conservatively). in pre-GC friendly torres started in CM indicating he was in line to have that spot for the gold cup. that was the only game he started there - losing out to holden and diskerud

you are only going yo give a guy "the keys to the car" and let him dictate your strategy (and play him in his ideal position) if he is your best player. torres is no where near our best player and thus he has to adapt to the alpha dogs around him - and play in a slightly less than ideal spot

bottom line - you are not building your squad around jose torres and if he is going to find a niche on the field, it is going to have to come, at least initially, in a subservient role. he has been given every opportunity for this to happen and the results, essentially, are not inspiring.

time to give others a crack at it

dolcem
Post #7
Monday August 26, 2013 2:46am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
Original post from Ohana

IMO, the game is moving away from the traditional Platini-style CAM. When those players become available, great, every coach will certainly find a way to use them. The reality is they're rare. In the absence of this kind of player, teams seem to increase the speed of play and the amount of passes. Substitute volume for "quality." This is appealing to coaches to create this type of "system" because the amount of games played is ridiculous. Also yellow card suspensions and injuries, etc. make it difficult to justify centering an attacking philosophy around one player. I'm seeing two types of games played currently: the first type is against a better opponent and the second type is against a lesser opponent. When you're the lesser opponent, you sit back and counter as fast as possible out of the back. When you're the better opponent, sit on top of the defense and pass as fast as possible. Someone figured out that you don't need ONE dominant playmaker if you can get 3 average playmakers doing what the coach tells them to do. Youth development is following this philosophy. Develop technically sound, not dominant, players that play their role (the most important part). I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just starting to think that the "Platini" is currently out of style. Klinsmann is absolutely using the latter system.


I agree with what you're saying, although I'm not really sure how it applies here because Torres is a deep-lying playmaker CM, not a #10 as some on here think. I think Torres should get PT (at his position) because it helps to have a few creative, skilled players.

Original post from bbakerxyz

So, what's the point of your thread? Pretty much everyone likes Torres and knows he's a CM. Are you saying he should start in front of Bradley or Jones? Good luck with that. Obviously Juergen likes him. Better for him to play outside mid than sit the bench. Juergen's not an idiot. Of course he knows Torres is better in the center.

Torres probably has more caps and PT than his competition for backup CM, right - Sacha, Mix? If you're a backup, you really need to be able to play a couple of different positions to increase your chances. Why do you think Freddy is never in the conversation - he can only play one position in one type of formation (now, he is great at that position, but that ain't enough). Jeurgen is giving Torres the opportunity to show whether he can play a couple of different positions. He's never going to put Mix or Sacha on the outside.


My point is that he's totally underrated and I can't believe Klinsmann hasn't tries him at his natural position (I understand his reasoning for doing so-we're stacked at CM but desperately need skilled attacking midfielders-but still it's really disappointing. A lot of people don't think he should be on the final 23. No one here is pulling for him (yet the forum is filled fans of players like Adu) even though he's a really talented player who never gets played in his natural position. Is he better than Jones or Bradley? No. Cameron? Maybe. But he definitely is next on the depth chart. And a lot of people have commented on here that the Bradley/Jones pairing doesn't work...so why not try a Bradley/Torres pairing? Torres is at least our fourth best CM and much better than Mix, Sacha, Beckerman, and Williams, so I don't get why he wouldn't make the plane to Brazil. But JK never plays him at his natural position and it's a total waste.

Original post from rainORshine

if torres is underrated in general (which i am not sure is really accurate) he is certainly not underrated by JK. JK has given torres every opportunity to cement a spot with this squad and it just has not happened.

torres has started 14 games for JK. what else can a torres fan ask for? (sacha kljestan DREAMS about 14 starts - he has 1)

yes, only 5 of those starts came as a CM, but 3 of those starts came in a 4-4-2 where he had plenty of room to operate and when he plays as a LM, offensively he essentially functions as a CM, pinching central while the LB becomes primary wing option (with RB playing more conservatively). in pre-GC friendly torres started in CM indicating he was in line to have that spot for the gold cup. that was the only game he started there - losing out to holden and diskerud

you are only going yo give a guy "the keys to the car" and let him dictate your strategy (and play him in his ideal position) if he is your best player. torres is no where near our best player and thus he has to adapt to the alpha dogs around him - and play in a slightly less than ideal spot

bottom line - you are not building your squad around jose torres and if he is going to find a niche on the field, it is going to have to come, at least initially, in a subservient role. he has been given every opportunity for this to happen and the results, essentially, are not inspiring.

time to give others a crack at it


Give other players a crack at CAM and LM, yes. But we've seen our other options at CM and Torres hasn't even been tried there when it's his natural position. I have no idea where you're getting your facts from but Torres has been played as a CM under Klinsmann ONCE (the Guatemala game where we won 6-0) for 45 minutes. Every other game he has played as a LM, CAM, or LB. Klinsmann gave him the keys of the team because he's a very good player. It didn't work out because he isn't an attacking midfielder but that doesn't change the fact that he's a really good CM. Klejstan, on the other hand, is not nearly as good as Torres and never has been rated highly by anyone (Valencia scouts, for example). And Klejstan (or any of our other CM's, for that matter) would have done no better if played out of position. Torres is much more skilled, passes the ball better, and takes set pieces better than anyone in the pool. He's better than Klejstan.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #8
Monday August 26, 2013 2:15pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
oh, valencia scouts watched some game film (and decided to pass)

now i understand how torres is MUCH better than kljestan and every other CM option

torres played CAM twice. CAM is a central midfield position - Central (Attacking) Midfield.

he has played CM in a 4-4-2 3 times - once with beckerman, twice with edu.

you are really going to use the 6-0 guatamala scoreline as part of your reasoning? the score was 1-0 at half and the team looked terrible. torres was yanked and never returned to CM. AND THIS IS THE ONLY TANGIBLE EVIDENCE that torres helps this team that you have tried to present

this is by far the weakest and most unhinged ranting i have ever seen on this forum - beyond adu level. but by all means, please continue to enlighten us on how "great" torres is

trying to force the idea that torres is MUCH better than the the other CMs in the pool is an absolute INSULT the intelligence of the YA readership - especially when the ONLY criteria you seem to using is that he was scouted by valencia at some point in his career

again - 14 starts and NO ONE (besides yourself) is suggesting torres be a starter.

he didnt even start Gold Cup final, for crying out loud

well, at least you seem to have come around about JK - you obviously think he makes terrible decisions and has it all wrong. funny, given how you supported him so much when the team was playing so poorly

(btw - i will not be returning this ridiculous thread - i hope the others appreciate your bible of a response)

rjw77
Post #9
Monday August 26, 2013 2:55pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 264
I agree with the above post. In the guatemala game, torres played in his natural CM position and got the assist on the goal in the first half, but when he and beckerman were subbed for holden and diskerud, the whole game exploded offensively.

dolcem
Post #10
Monday August 26, 2013 3:07pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
Original post from rainORshine

oh, valencia scouts watched some game film (and decided to pass)

now i understand how torres is MUCH better than kljestan and every other CM option

torres played CAM twice. CAM is a central midfield position - Central (Attacking) Midfield.

he has played CM in a 4-4-2 3 times - once with beckerman, twice with edu.

you are really going to use the 6-0 guatamala scoreline as part of your reasoning? the score was 1-0 at half and the team looked terrible. torres was yanked and never returned to CM. AND THIS IS THE ONLY TANGIBLE EVIDENCE that torres helps this team that you have tried to present

this is by far the weakest and most unhinged ranting i have ever seen on this forum - beyond adu level. but by all means, please continue to enlighten us on how "great" torres is

trying to force the idea that torres is MUCH better than the the other CMs in the pool is an absolute INSULT the intelligence of the YA readership - especially when the ONLY criteria you seem to using is that he was scouted by valencia at some point in his career

again - 14 starts and NO ONE (besides yourself) is suggesting torres be a starter.

he didnt even start Gold Cup final, for crying out loud

well, at least you seem to have come around about JK - you obviously think he makes terrible decisions and has it all wrong. funny, given how you supported him so much when the team was playing so poorly

(btw - i will not be returning this ridiculous thread - i hope the others appreciate your bible of a response)


OK Mrs. Kljestan, I'm sorry you have been offended so much by my rating Torres higher than your husband in Belgium and some guy who plays in Norway.

Yes, how ridiculous of me to start a thread on a player at yanks-abroad. The audacity. It's hilarious you accuse me of ranting when you post on every single thread about how Kljestan's is Maradona's heir and deserves to be starting when the vast majority of US fans don't even want him on the plane to Brazil. I am posting about Torres ONE TIME. I'm not spamming the forum trying to rep him like I'm his agent, like you do with Kljestan.

Enlighten me as to which games Torres play as a CM in a 4-4-2 because I've gone over all the lineups on football-lineups.com and the only time he played as a CM was the Guatemala game. CAM is NOT CM. Yeah it's central and that's where the similarities end. Central defense and CAM are both in the middle, are they the same? Torres is a deep-lying playmaker. He isn't effective in the final third as we have seen. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be a great CM for us in a 4-5-1. He's played there for a grand total of 45 minutes...yeah he didn't have a good game (he had the assist on the first goal though). But I take consistent performance as a quality CM at the club level over that one half in a friendly. Kljestan would NOT have fared any better if he were only played as an LB, LM, and CAM (twice). And let's not forget that recently when Kljestan played as the CM in the Belgian game, Jones was so displeased by his performance he said he only wanted to start alongside Bradley. I'm not claiming Jones was right but you can't make an argument based on one game.

Liga MX is a better league than the Belgian and Norwegian leagues. Fact. Torres was going to go to Valencia until he injured his foot. Fact. Kljestan would never have even been considered. Fact. I don't think anyone who rates Kljestan or Diskerud over Torres is an idiot but anyone who thinks that any of those guys is head and shoulder over the other doesn't know what they're talking about. I think Torres is definitely a step above but I don't go around telling everyone he's world class.

As for my criticizing Klinsmann, I'm a huge supporter, and I think he made a big mistake with this one. But I don't go around calling for the coach's head every time he doesn't pick my favorite player...there is so much that goes into roster selections and every fan has their own lineup but I'm not arrogant enough about my opinion to think that if the coach doesn't agree with it exactly, he should be fired. It's the posters like you with their favorite players and armchair lineups that they think will win us the World Cup that make intelligent conversation on the forum much more difficult.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
tylercocinas
Post #11
Monday August 26, 2013 3:27pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 694
With the addition of Diskerud, we're talking about three guys that are neck and neck with each other in the positional depth chart behind Jones and Bradley. Not a lot separates them. However, I believe that he is the 3rd best midfielder and the real argument should be between Torres and Diskerud for the 4th spot. I'm not sure Mix has earned a place in the squad at the expense of Gringo.

rjw77
Post #12
Monday August 26, 2013 9:20pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 264
My CM Depth chart:

1. Bradley
2. Jones
3. Cameron
4. Kljestan
5. Torres
6. Corona
7. Beckerman
8. Diskerud
9. Williams
10. Edu

We started getting into 3rd and 4th best CM's so it got me thiniking about my top 10 lol.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #13
Tuesday August 27, 2013 3:33pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 913
Original post from rjw77

My CM Depth chart:

1. Bradley
2. Jones
3. Cameron
4. Kljestan
5. Torres
6. Corona
7. Beckerman
8. Diskerud
9. Williams
10. Edu

We started getting into 3rd and 4th best CM's so it got me thiniking about my top 10 lol.


I think Mix is higher than Torres and Corona.


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