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USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #451
Monday December 2, 2013 4:40am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,199
Original post from rainORshine

SMH... we can agree on that


I'm glad you realize you are lost.

rainORshine
Post #452
Monday December 2, 2013 5:22am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,781
Original post from 2tone

I'm all for seeing the best possible synergy with the USMNT starting 11. If that means the Mustachioed wonder that is Kljestan starting next to Bradley; then so be it.

But, I think Klinsmann will continue to start Jones with Bradley. If that's the case, then Jones needs to differ to Bradley as the Il Generale for the USMNT midfield.


absolutely...

defer...

that comment actually brings up the entire ball of wax. jermaine jones is a consummate alpha dog... he does not defer. he is simply not capable of deferring. ("you know, i am a champions league player, ya...")

the 'double pivot' that JK has tried to establish with bradley and jones is simply not plausible. jones is not capable of 'sharing' a role. and JK has not really tried to distinguish their roles. people assume that jones has been instructed to play a 6 to bradleys 8. that is not true. JK has explicitly discussed his intention for bradley and jones to find an equal partnership where they try to synchronize going forward and holding

it has not worked. and it wont work. but not because it is impossible for 2 8s to play together, but because jones is not capable of functioning optimally in this kind of arrangement.

if you want to play jones and bradley together in a 2-CM middle you MUST designate a 6 and an 8. period. most USMNT observers would suggest that jones be the 6 and bradley the 8. but the fact is that designating either player to either role would create a massively improved dynamic. i think jones could thrive as a 6. give him that role and let him own it. but even if you gave bradley the 6 and jones the 8, i would guess that the focused roles would help create a superior team synergy.

the problem, at its root, is not that 2 8s cant play together... the problem is that THESE 2 8s cant play (optimally) together and the coach has not figured that out. both jones and bradley are more than capable of playing a 6 at the international level. the coach needs to call one of them into the office and say "i need you to play a 6"...

its a pretty simple puzzle that most USMNT fans have solved. JK and his staff are still trying to crack the code,,,

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #453
Monday December 2, 2013 5:37am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,116
Lol. Rain you agreed with me. See we can be synergistic on this site as well.

Sorry about the misspelling of defer. Sometimes I just don't edit my posts to the standard of a dissertation.

rainORshine
Post #454
Monday December 2, 2013 5:59pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,781
differ, defer... we know what you meant

richieJkulesaNY
Post #455
Monday December 2, 2013 8:26pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 949
Original post from rainORshine

not exactly sure what point you are really trying to make but if you are suggesting strootman plays deeper than bradley you dont watch the games. today strootman took 5 shots, 3 on goal and scored a goal. bradley took 1 shot not on target.

the goal is not to identify some kind of dolcem-approved fantasy line-up but simply to optimize the available talent

we realize you feel JK is god and you are shocked how well he does with the pathetic, terrible options he has to choose from but please continue to post comments that reinforce this idea...

they add a lot to the conversation


Dolcem's point is you dont understand how to construct a 3 man midfield. You are not optimizing our available talent by sticking three VERY similar players together in the middle of the pitch.

rainORshine
Post #456
Monday December 2, 2013 8:40pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,781
Original post from richieJkulesaNY

Dolcem's point is you dont understand how to construct a 3 man midfield. You are not optimizing our available talent by sticking three VERY similar players together in the middle of the pitch.


right, because derossi, strootman and bradley are so different from one another

try again

hamsamwich
Post #457
Monday December 2, 2013 8:56pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 591
Getting back to Jermaine Jones, it seems there is some attitude going around as if he is some sort of scrub, barely fit to brush Michael Bradley's cleats. Michael Bradley is better, obviously, but Jermaine can make plays as well. Our defenders need to be able to push up with confidence because our Bradley/Jones combination must go forward to support the attack. People act like JJ doesn't need to ever get forward are deluding themselves. The USMNT as yet does not have the type of forwards and wingers that cause enough trouble to score without pushing up midfielders. Yes, MB90 will mainly push forward when Jones stays back, but honestly to score many times we will need Bradley in the box with Jones just behind that. In those situations Besler, Gonzalez et al need to be more aware (remember Campbell's goal for Costa Rica, we had enough players to guard him, but the defense wasn't paying attention.) Our defenders must play better to allow us to attack, or we will just be defending all game anyway.

dolcem
Post #458
Monday December 2, 2013 9:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from rainORshine

the EXACT same thing? really?

my main points (in no particular order):

- i think USMNT would do better with 3-man CM
- i think sacha has been deserving of a far bigger role on this team than JK has given him

dolcems main point:
- JK has LESS to work with than bruce arena or bob bradley and would be LUCKY to guide this team out of group stage given the lack of talent at his disposal

and i am the one who gets called out for trying to support my radical ideas?

if you want to support the point dolcem is trying to make, go for it. i think it is an absolutely asinine idea given that virtually anyone who pays close attention to the program would agree that the amount of talent in the USMNT pool has steadily risen and is better than ever

dolcem does not even think the talent and potential is even - he thinks it is SIGNIFICANTLY worse and, again, thinks the US will be LUCKY to get out of group because the talent is so poor

so you are saying that our ideas are equally plausible? this is why you have such an issue with me calling him out?


Typical strawman rain argument. I never said we were SIGNIFICANTLY worse or even worse...I'd say we've been about the same over the past few cycles. A lot deeper than ever before but we don't have a '10 Donovan or Dempsey and we don't really have a good combination of players.

But this is totally off-topic. We're talking about your idea for a three man midfield.

Original post from richieJkulesaNY

Dolcem's point is you dont understand how to construct a 3 man midfield. You are not optimizing our available talent by sticking three VERY similar players together in the middle of the pitch.


Bingo.

Original post from rainORshine

right, because derossi, strootman and bradley are so different from one another

try again


Is this supposed to be sarcasm? I don't know. The three of them are three totally different types of players and if you can't see that than your ability to evaluate players shouldn't be taken seriously be anyone (well, considering you think Kljestan is better than John O'Brien was, I think we've all established that). De Rossi is a #6, Bradley is a box-to-box #8, Strootman is a deep-lying playmaker with excellent distributional abilities, and Pjanic is a sort of CM/CAM. Roma (whether intentionally or not) has a sort of poor man's Barca midfield going on right now with De Rossi as the DM, Strootman as the Xavi metronome type, and Pjanic is the Iniesta type who moves farther forward. You can point out the statistics from one game but I've seen Strootman play a fair amount back in his PSV days and he is not the same type of player as Kljestan. Your example is irrelevant. A good 4-3-3 has three different types of CM's with three different and well-defined roles. If the two CM's are the same type of player it will not be as effective, and that's exactly what you would have with a Bradley/Kljestan pairing (they both do similar things). If you want to have Bradley play as the #6 and pair Kljestan with another type of CM (ideally someone who sits back a bit deeper and distributes the ball well), that would be fine.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
Dimo
Post #459
Monday December 2, 2013 9:58pm

Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts: 271
If we have a three man midfield, Torres needs to be in the discussion.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #460
Monday December 2, 2013 11:53pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,116
I would like to see this as a 3 man in a 4-3-3.

Deuce-------AJ-------Lando
--------Mix----MB90------
----------Jones-----------
Fabian----Besler---Gonzo-----Cam
------------Howard--------

That would be my 4-3-3.

Deuce and Lando can cut inside and support AJ with Fabian and Cam overlapping.

Mix and MB90 seemed to really work well in the second half against Austria, and jones can sit a bit more and defend with his bulldoggish defending.

If you think Jones may be to much of a liability then replace him with Williams.

Kljestan in my world is a sub for either MB90 or Diskerud.

Also one has to think about Holden as well. He will be cleared to play by the end of February. And if he comes back and plays well from March until the beginning of May; you know Klinsmann will at the very least put him on that 30 man provisional roster.

Here are the Cm's I predict will be on that 30 man provisional roster:

Bradley
Jones
Diskerud
Kljestan
Holden
Williams

The two CM's that I think are a lock for Brasil right now: Bradley and Jones. These other guys will be fighting for the last few spots.

Torres is finding himself more and more on the bench for Tigres, and he looks to be heading as a bench option to the start of Liga MX in January as well.

here is a potential 30 man provisional roster:

GK: Sean John, Rimando, Guzan, Howard

Defense: Cameron, Chandler, Dolo, Brooks, Gonzo, Goodson, Besler, Orozco, Beasley, Castillo

Cm's: Bradley, Jones, Williams, Kljestan, Diskerud, Holden

Attackers: Lando, Deuce, AJ, jozy, EJ, Boyd, Shea, Zusi, Fabian, Zardes

I think if both Williams and Holden are healthy and in form Beckerman will be the guy left in the cold.

Obviously a lot can and will happen from now until May. Injuries, player form, player resurrections i.e. Ream, Corona, and Agudelo, possible player acquisitions i.e. Parker and Green, young players you can't ignore i.e. Yedlin, Klute, Arriola. I think there are and will be players that will surprise in the next 5 months, and make the WC team.

Exciting times for all. Nothing is definite until Klinsmann selects that final 23 to represent the greatest nation that was every conceived at next summers WC.

jtsccr12
Post #461
Tuesday December 3, 2013 12:12am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 80
I think we will see greater intentionality with the CM pairing and overall support player pool once the WC draw happens. Once we know our group, I think you will find JK will select players whose strengths fit those teams. I agree with the approach even though it could blow up in our face during the knock-out rounds (since you may not have built to face teams like Ghana)... but you have to get there before you can count those chickens.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #462
Tuesday December 3, 2013 4:21pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 949
Original post from rainORshine

right, because derossi, strootman and bradley are so different from one another

try again


Try what again?

I dont know what else I can tell you. Dolcem explained pretty well the differences between those guys.

No matter how hard you want to make Jones a #6 and no matter how hard you want to make Kljestan out to be anything other than a decent backup to Bradley, it wont change the fact that they are all the same player with the same mentalities.

Mix--Kljestan
--Jones--

Thats the 3 man midfield you want if Kljestan MUST be starting.

Nobody is really saying that Kljestan is a bad player, and I think most believe he should be on the team. Unfortunately he is behind Bradley and that cant be argued.

MSantoine
Post #463
Tuesday December 3, 2013 4:41pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,200
Original post from 2tone

here is a potential 30 man provisional roster:

GK: Sean John, Rimando, Guzan, Howard

Defense: Cameron, Chandler, Dolo, Brooks, Gonzo, Goodson, Besler, Orozco, Beasley, Castillo

Cm's: Bradley, Jones, Williams, Kljestan, Diskerud, Holden

Attackers: Lando, Deuce, AJ, jozy, EJ, Boyd, Shea, Zusi, Fabian, Zardes



Nice list. Although I think guys like Evans, Davis, Beckerman will be on the provesional over some of them (maybe Orozco, Boyd, Zardes or Holden). The Brads and Kyle B have shown to be JK's safety valves. I would imagine theyd be on the provisional roster so if Dolo gets re-injured and the Chandler saga continues he has Evans to throw in there. Same as Davis for coverage if anyone on the left side, Castillo/Beas/Fab/Shea/EJ gets hurt. I pray that those 3 arent on the 23 man roster but Id be surprised if they werent on the 30 man roster as theyve proven to be the use when best options arent available guys

rainORshine
Post #464
Tuesday December 3, 2013 6:25pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,781
Original post from richieJkulesaNY

Try what again?

I dont know what else I can tell you. Dolcem explained pretty well the differences between those guys.

No matter how hard you want to make Jones a #6 and no matter how hard you want to make Kljestan out to be anything other than a decent backup to Bradley, it wont change the fact that they are all the same player with the same mentalities.

Mix-Kljestan
-Jones-

Thats the 3 man midfield you want if Kljestan MUST be starting.

Nobody is really saying that Kljestan is a bad player, and I think most believe he should be on the team. Unfortunately he is behind Bradley and that cant be argued.


didnt read dolcems post. his assertions that US has less talent than in the past does not compute with reality and i avoid his posts when possible. if you have any original ideas id love to hear them

there are plenty of examples of 8 playing together. roma is just one example of many. are you really saying you are not aware of 8s playing effectively together? when bradley plays, stootman gets forward quite a bit. when pjanic plays, pjanic is the one getting forward more than strootman. derossi could be an 8. he is asked to play a 6 because that is what that the team needs

players are capable of a range of roles within a given spectrum.
- jones or bradley are theoretically capable of playing a 6 at a high level - it is just a variation of a CM role that would be a pretty simple adjustment given their strengths.
- as well, both could function (individually) as a defensive-minded 8 or a more 'pure' 8 playing both sides of ball roughly equally. neither one really has the finesse to play a more advanced 'attack minded' 8 at the international level. CONCACAF, sure, WC, no. those wanting to see bradley play higher up the field would be pretty disappointed. his attacking value comes from his ability to make surging runs from deep positions, something you nullify by playing him more advanced
- sacha is an 8, but with more of an attacking background... he can play a pure 8 or he can play a more attack-minded 8. his defensive awareness and technique disqualify him for a defensive minded 8 and on the attacking side he is not equipped to 'move forward' and play a 10

so, some example of players playing OUTSIDE their range at int/WC level:
- sacha at a 10
- torres at a 10
- williams at RM
- EJ at LM
- gomez at LM or RM
- torres at LM
- evans at RB
- probably beasley at LB

so JK has made a bunch of mistakes. its ok - we all do.

suggesting that kljestan and bradley cant play next to each other is a pretty ill-informed take. sacha and MB were very good for U23s and they were good together, at times, for BB... dos-a-cero over mexico in 09 WCQ is one example. they have ZERO starts together (as 8s) under JK

was it consistent? no. that was before sacha really rounded into the class player he is today - before he ever went to anderlecht and began playing europa and UCL every year. not to mention it was before bradley was really at HIS peak

i think jones could play a 6. if he cant there are 3 options
1) continue with double pivot that has gone nowhere
2) play bradley at a 6
3) use another 6 (like williams)

if people dont like the idea of sacha and bradley playing together, fine, bur trying to make an argument that it cant work because of what you see from other players is a really lame argument. if bradley/kljestan showed promise in 2008 and 2009 before either was nearly as good as they are now (especially sacha) its a joke to blow it off by comparing and contrasting sacha to other players that bradley HAS been able to share an 8 with

bradley is capable of sharing an 8. jones is not

that is why the double pivot with bradley and jones can not work.

if people think jones simply can not handle a 6:

---kljestan--bradley--
-----williams------

like or dont like, but you look really silly by declaring there is no possible way it could be better than JKs bradley/jones double pivot. no one knows for sure if it would be better, worse, or about the same

if you favor bradley/jones double pivot, just say so... and maybe explain why. if you have another idea, would love to hear that as well

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #465
Tuesday December 3, 2013 7:26pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 282
This is getting to the point where I loathe SK. And I hope he starts our first WC game and has 3 own goals but we win 4-3 and we never have to talk about this again.
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
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