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dolcem
Post #196
Wednesday October 30, 2013 7:22pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
Original post from rainORshine

i simply prefer productive players like kljestan and rowe to unproductive players like diskerud and adu

call me crazy


And that's your problem. You measure the "production" of CM's based on how many assists and goals they get (multiplied by the competitiveness factor of the league).

This isn't baseball. You can't calculate the ability or worth of players based on box scores.

If we were to do so, than we would consider Rakitic, Ibai Gomez, Koke, and Benat to be better than Xavi, and Valeron (not the one from the 90's, the one from last year) to be his equal. All of those guys had more assists last season than Xavi, who is probably the best CM of all time. We could also throw in Wigan's Shaun Maloney into that list, who had just as many assists in the EPL (which a lot of people consider to be more competitive).

The job of a CM is not simply to rack up as many assists as possible. You can have a great game as a CM without an assist, and a bad game with one. A CM who is always out of position, doesn't pass the ball well, doesn't defend well, but roams high up the pitch and happens to be there for the goal or assist is counterproductive, even if the stats show otherwise.

Even if you look at a position where one would think stats do matter (striker), the fact is that they don't. English players are always worth double their value and attacking players are always overvalued but NO ONE wants Darren Bent. This guy is a prolific EPL goalscorer. Why? Because he doesn't do anything other than wait around in the box to poach a goal. His passing sucks and he doesn't do anything to help make the players around him better. Coaches know to judge a player based on their own evaluation of him rather than using statistics because this isn't baseball. And they're experts.

I've long suspected that your Sacha obsession stems from the fact that he gets more goals and assists than the other CM's but I think this confirms it. If that's the case than you need to stop because you're only making yourself look like a very new fan. Whether or not you prefer Kljestan, Diskerud, Torres, etc. should only be based on one thing: what Americans refer to as the "eye test." Are the conclusions from your eye test objective? No, because the game is very subjective. Are they worth anything? Not really, but neither are mine or anyone else's on the forum, because we're not scouts (something a lot of people here could learn). But if you were to do so, at least you would be approaching the game correctly.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #197
Thursday October 31, 2013 3:43am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 275
Original post from rainORshine

call me crazy


OK, your crazy!!!

platter
Jacksonville, FL
Post #198
Thursday October 31, 2013 6:12am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 85
Original post from dolcem

And that's your problem. You measure the "production" of CM's based on how many assists and goals they get (multiplied by the competitiveness factor of the league).

This isn't baseball. You can't calculate the ability or worth of players based on box scores.

If we were to do so, than we would consider Rakitic, Ibai Gomez, Koke, and Benat to be better than Xavi, and Valeron (not the one from the 90's, the one from last year) to be his equal. All of those guys had more assists last season than Xavi, who is probably the best CM of all time. We could also throw in Wigan's Shaun Maloney into that list, who had just as many assists in the EPL (which a lot of people consider to be more competitive).


Totally agree dolcem. Rain, I'm a statistician, I live quantitative analysis, but statistics are more damaging then helpful when they fail to explain a significant proportion of outcomes. Soccer stats definitely fail in this category. Goals and Assist, by individual players, just don't tell us much about said player. They don't account for the possession that lead to the goal, the tackle in the middle of the park that allows a team to be aggressive, and therefore leads to goals. Half the time a goal is a tap in that falls to someone like Bent. They certainly don't provide any indication of the defense a CM plays.
The only way to adequately assess a soccer player, is to watch him player the game. Some are better at this then others, but at least you'll be able to get a grasp of his quickness, touch, speed, instincts, etc... It's called the beautiful game for a reason, it's meant to watched not analyzed quantitatively.

rainORshine
Post #199
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:16pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
forgot brad evans - who deserves his due as a CM

8s
1) bradley
2) kljestan (another goal today. ho hum)
3) evans

6s
1) jones
2) beckerman
3) williams
4) clark

if people want to argue that cameron is a better 6 than beckerman - i am open to that... i just dont include him because he does not play DM/CM

overall
1) bradley
2) kljestan
3) jones
4) beckerman
5) evans
6) williams
7) clark

i would be open to seeing evans make the squad as an emergency 8

EKneezy
Post #200
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:24pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,695
Clark??? Shoot me in the face now.

Totally agree on Evans. We all know he isn't a RB so him as depth in the midfield is superb.

rainORshine
Post #201
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:30pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from EKneezy

Clark??? Shoot me in the face now.

Totally agree on Evans. We all know he isn't a RB so him as depth in the midfield is superb.


easy on the hyperbole. clark is a solid player. watch the houston game tonight and tell me otherwise

EKneezy
Post #202
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:32pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,695
Original post from rainORshine

easy on the hyperbole. clark is a solid player. watch the houston game tonight and tell me otherwise


He's very solid. Just should be nowhere near the USMNT is all.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #203
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:40pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,099
Is solidity not one of the most important characteristics of a USMNT CM? Isn't that the reason why we keep including Beckerman?

rainORshine
Post #204
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:57pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from platter

Totally agree dolcem. Rain, I'm a statistician, I live quantitative analysis, but statistics are more damaging then helpful when they fail to explain a significant proportion of outcomes. Soccer stats definitely fail in this category. Goals and Assist, by individual players, just don't tell us much about said player. They don't account for the possession that lead to the goal, the tackle in the middle of the park that allows a team to be aggressive, and therefore leads to goals. Half the time a goal is a tap in that falls to someone like Bent. They certainly don't provide any indication of the defense a CM plays.
The only way to adequately assess a soccer player, is to watch him player the game. Some are better at this then others, but at least you'll be able to get a grasp of his quickness, touch, speed, instincts, etc... It's called the beautiful game for a reason, it's meant to watched not analyzed quantitatively.


the most beautiful moments (moments when fans get most excited) are when the ball hits the back of the net

GOALS
ASSISTS

why are these moments so important? because to win games you have to score goals

those, like dolcem, who show a complete inability to COMBINE subjective observation with understanding and integrating objective information/analysis are not able to offer anything to these discussion other than to argue ad nauseam that stats are irrelevant and JK knows best.

shame on you - a statistical analyst making that claim that looking at goals and assists is more damaging than helpful

when i sit down and watch a game, i am enjoying the beautiful game not tabulating statistics. when i am discussing the game with others and offering my assessment i will use my subjective take AND supporting objective evidence, where applicable

2 guys the dolcem has supported more than any others over the last year or so are jose torres and joe corona - 2 guys that have basically fallen completely out of the USMNT picture. and it really was not hard to predict that happening. why? because they are NOT PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS. they are midfielders who do not consistently help their teams put the ball in the net.

for you, dolcem, or anyone else not to be able to make this very simple connection makes you look incredibly foolish

enjoy the beautiful game from the comfort of your chair all you want, but most folks on here understand the game from BOTH a subjective AND objective standpoint.

please join us

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #205
Thursday October 31, 2013 5:57pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,819
You know I would not be surprised if Klinsmann brings Clark back into the fold. Injuries happen.

Ah, Kljestan the man that looks good very Anderlecht, but mediocre for the USMNT. Club stats don't mean jack. It's what you do in the national team that matters.

rainORshine
Post #206
Thursday October 31, 2013 6:09pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from 2tone

You know I would not be surprised if Klinsmann brings Clark back into the fold. Injuries happen.

Ah, Kljestan the man that looks good very Anderlecht, but mediocre for the USMNT. Club stats don't mean jack. It's what you do in the national team that matters.


EXACTLY! what i have been saying. play him and see what he does. 2 starts in 41 games games

you really think when he came on against bosnia and US scored 2 goals he did jack?
you really think when he came on against jamaica and US scored 2 goals he did jack?
you really think when he got a start against panama and US got the 3 goals it needed to win he did jack?

yea, you clearly have no vendetta against kljestan

rainORshine
Post #207
Thursday October 31, 2013 6:19pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
i love how people say "stats mean jack" and then turn around and support diskerud by pointing to his 'assist' v mexico or goal v russia

hint: makes you look like a complete jack-ass (whoever you are)

dolcem
Post #208
Thursday October 31, 2013 7:43pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
Original post from rainORshine

the most beautiful moments (moments when fans get most excited) are when the ball hits the back of the net

GOALS
ASSISTS

why are these moments so important? because to win games you have to score goals

those, like dolcem, who show a complete inability to COMBINE subjective observation with understanding and integrating objective information/analysis are not able to offer anything to these discussion other than to argue ad nauseam that stats are irrelevant and JK knows best.

shame on you - a statistical analyst making that claim that looking at goals and assists is more damaging than helpful

when i sit down and watch a game, i am enjoying the beautiful game not tabulating statistics. when i am discussing the game with others and offering my assessment i will use my subjective take AND supporting objective evidence, where applicable

2 guys the dolcem has supported more than any others over the last year or so are jose torres and joe corona - 2 guys that have basically fallen completely out of the USMNT picture. and it really was not hard to predict that happening. why? because they are NOT PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS. they are midfielders who do not consistently help their teams put the ball in the net.

for you, dolcem, or anyone else not to be able to make this very simple connection makes you look incredibly foolish

enjoy the beautiful game from the comfort of your chair all you want, but most folks on here understand the game from BOTH a subjective AND objective standpoint.

please join us


First things first, I was never a huge Corona supporter, I am a supporter of any attacking mid we have that is playing in a reasonably good league. Now that he isn't getting PT, I don't want to see him for the NT. Second, Torres is out of the NT picture because that was JK's decision. Who is in and out of the picture depends on the coach. I think that Torres would really help out the team if tried out as a CM but our coach feels otherwise. You think that Kljestan should be on the field no matter what but JK has been slow to give him minutes. These are opinions nothing more, the difference is though that I know that I'm just a fan and that my opinion doesn't really matter that much at the end of the day. This is totally irrelevant to the discussion though and I think you're just trying to deflect it.

The real issue is that you rate CM's based on their goal/assist total. It should be obvious that this is a poor metric because of how few assists and goals most CM's get. Arguing that one CM is better than another because he had 7 assists over the course of 38 games compared to 2 for the other CM should be a pretty clear indicator that assists obviously aren't a big part of this position's game. Otherwise, both players would be pretty useless since they contributed nothing for 31 and 36 games, respectively.

It is interesting that you say what makes the game beautiful are goals and assists (well, should be just goals, because an assist indicates a goal). I think that's what all of this comes down to: you're new to the sport (not that there's anything wrong with that). If goals were what made soccer beautiful, all you would need to watch are the highlights. In fact, it would be a pretty crappy sport since you have to sit there for 2 hours to watch only a couple seconds of beauty. People that have been watching the sport a long time can love a 0-0 draw. A seasoned soccer fan loves watching all parts of the game, especially the build-up. Goals can be awesome, sometimes they aren't though. Do you think Wondolowski plays more beautifully than Xavi because he scores more goals?

While a team's objective is to score goals, that is not necessarily each individual player's goal. His goal is for his TEAM to score, not necessarily for him to score. If sitting deep in the midfield, making tackles, dribbling, and passing the ball to other players so that they can score, that's what he is supposed to do. If he doesn't collect any goals or assists in the process, that doesn't matter. If, on the other hand, he just sits at the edge of the box all game and waits for the right moment to poach a goal, he probably is hurting his team's chances of scoring more. Because the former is the objective of a CM, they usually don't get many assists or goals, and their assist/goal tally isn't really an accurate indicator of how good they are. It certainly isn't a way to compare CM's.

I think the fact that you haven't been able to counter our arguments (for example, that under your metric, Ibai Gomez is better than Xavi and Darren Bent is an awesome player) should be a wake-up call. I appreciate the fact that you want to add some objectivity to the discussion, but at this point, statisticians still haven't really figured out how to apply statistics to soccer. I'm not writing all of this to make you look bad or to try to make myself look better, I'm writing this to inform you. If you go around making these types of argument people are going to think you're a complete noob. Take this from someone who has lived abroad in soccer crazy nations for years: things like stats and height and weight, while crucial to American sports, don't enter conversations about soccer in other countries. You've already undermined your credibility here because of this. I used to think that you watched Kljestan and thought he was more talented than given credit for but now I'm pretty sure it's simply because of his stats. That makes us much less inclined to listen to your opinion.

Because of soccer's beauty and infinite complexity, it isn't easily measured by statistics the way most other sports are (only further evidence that it is the best sport). That means it's very subjective and that it's near impossible to objectively measure the correctness of opinions. That makes arguing about it more complicated and never-ending but the knowledgeable soccer fan understands that this is why his opinion doesn't really matter all that much and to leave it to the experts to coach the team. Which is why constantly spamming one's opinion all over the place is rude.

That's all I have to say about that.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
EKneezy
Post #209
Thursday October 31, 2013 7:52pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,695
That's why advanced statistics in soccer is much needed. We have some like Total Shots Ratio and key passes and others but we're still in the budding stages of soccer analytics. As times moves on we'll have more numbers at our disposal.

dolcem
Post #210
Thursday October 31, 2013 7:57pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,033
Also, putting someone like Rico Clark or even Evans over Torres or Diskerud is downright childish. We see what you did there, and it's stupid.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
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