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cudevil
Post #451
Thursday February 27, 2020 12:45am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,015
And we know that Zardes can't play at a level much above the minnows in CONCACAF.

Lilshmike
Post #452
Thursday February 27, 2020 2:32am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from 2tone

We don't have the luxury to say ArJo's time is done. I'm all about Sargent, Ebobissie, and Toye, and potentially Pepi and Hoppe and Gioachinni. At this point I'm looking at Zardes really continuing to be the starter. ArJo should be called up in this window. Just to see exactly where he is at physically.

I'm not sold Sargent is going to be the striker we all thought he could become, but he is young and still has time.

We have Zardes and two often injured strikers in Jozy and ArJo and then a handful of unproven young players. Toye, Ebobissie, and Sargent have the most experience at their age.
Look, I have been a big fan of him... but lets get real.

Over the last 5 years the guy has scored less than 10 goals. Yes, he scored 2 in his last outing (which, mind you, only lasted 45 mins)... but thats not impressive enough to push him into the national team for March. He has to stay healthy, play consistently, and score goals. If he can continue to do that, then the window after March... yes, he should be in the conversation.

Right now? Absolutely not. Not above any guy in MLS who has been scoring goals, or above Novakovich or Sabbi (who have better track records in recent seasons).

Calling for ArJo right now would be the equivalent of calling for Bobby Wood if Bobby came off the bench in a cup match and scored a goal or two after having not played consistently (or score goals) in year. Its just not good enough.

Lilshmike
Post #453
Thursday February 27, 2020 2:35am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from cudevil

And we know that Zardes can't play at a level much above the minnows in CONCACAF.
Zardes plays more at club and scores way more than ArJo (at a slightly higher level than ArJo is at currently). I like Johannsson much more than Zardes... but if you had to choose between the two of them, the choice is a no brainer right now.

This is not controversial and really isn't a debate.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #454
Thursday February 27, 2020 2:44pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,516
Original post from Lilshmike

Look, I have been a big fan of him... but lets get real.

Over the last 5 years the guy has scored less than 10 goals. Yes, he scored 2 in his last outing (which, mind you, only lasted 45 mins)... but thats not impressive enough to push him into the national team for March. He has to stay healthy, play consistently, and score goals. If he can continue to do that, then the window after March... yes, he should be in the conversation.

Right now? Absolutely not. Not above any guy in MLS who has been scoring goals, or above Novakovich or Sabbi (who have better track records in recent seasons).

Calling for ArJo right now would be the equivalent of calling for Bobby Wood if Bobby came off the bench in a cup match and scored a goal or two after having not played consistently (or score goals) in year. Its just not good enough.


Sabbi isn't a striker.
Novakovich should get a look. As should ArJo who has a better track record for the USMNT. What guy in MLS? Toye will be with the U23's as well as Ebobissie.

Lilshmike
Post #455
Thursday February 27, 2020 4:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from 2tone

Sabbi isn't a striker.
Novakovich should get a look. As should ArJo who has a better track record for the USMNT. What guy in MLS? Toye will be with the U23's as well as Ebobissie.
Sabbi has played as a striker.

Jozy if healthy, Zardes, and Morris for starters...

I'll even go as far to say Dwyer, Ramirez, Bunbury, and Agudelo... all of whom are in the same age range as Johannsson, lack the horrific track record of being injured for 50 weeks the year for last 5 years, and have played for the USMNT in the time since ArJo's last appearance... 5 years ago.

This also neglects to include Sargent and even (as it pains me to say) Haji Wright.

ArJo shouldn't get called in this window. And to be blunt, the only reason we are talking about him is because he scored 2 goals in a cup game in Sweden after him being a ghost for years. Let's hop off the hype train for a minute and get real. Bobby Wood should stand the same chance of getting called in as Johannsson... and there is no way he should get called in.

ArJo, if he continues to get playing time and scores goals consistently, could be a good option for the next window after March... but at this point in time its too little too soon and he quite frankly hasn't done anything or merit to earn it. Especially when there are a number of players (ones that I mentioned) who have created a much better argument up to this point.

I will reiterate that I like the guy, and I think that when healthy and in form he is our best striker... but his lack of playing time, track record of injuries, and questionable fitness and scoring record in the last 24 to 60 months should in absolutely no way have him near the USMNT until he turns that around and is able to prove he can stay healthy and get back to his old ways.

And again... none of this is controversial.

Know Nothing
Post #456
Thursday February 27, 2020 9:59pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,759
With all due respect, where has anyone said anything about it being controversial? GGG called in an unafilliated 17 year old last camp to evaluate him...how would this be any different?

Has anyone said play the man? The only thing I see is 2Tone saying call him in to camp to see where he is. He is different from the strikers we use...different can be good.

cudevil
Post #457
Thursday February 27, 2020 11:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,015
Original post from Lilshmike

Zardes plays more at club and scores way more than ArJo (at a slightly higher level than ArJo is at currently). I like Johannsson much more than Zardes... but if you had to choose between the two of them, the choice is a no brainer right now.

This is not controversial and really isn't a debate.


We shouldn't debate whether we should continue to call in and run out guys that we know aren't good enough to play at a high level internationally? I am fine not calling in ArJo because he is not reliable from a health point of view. If that issue was resolved, though, he should get called in every time before Zardes. I could care less how many goals Zardes scores in the MLS--he can't play at the international level beyond the minnows of CONCACAF and shouldn't continue to be called in if there are other healthy options. Period. End of.

Lilshmike
Post #458
Friday February 28, 2020 7:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from Know Nothing

With all due respect, where has anyone said anything about it being controversial? GGG called in an unafilliated 17 year old last camp to evaluate him...how would this be any different?

Has anyone said play the man? The only thing I see is 2Tone saying call him in to camp to see where he is. He is different from the strikers we use...different can be good.
Controversial as in... inevitably... when he doesn't get called in, people will lose their minds and cry about ArJo getting "snubbed" over Zardes, when legitimately he hasn't done enough to even warrant inclusion yet. He played 45 minutes in a Swedish cup game and scored 2 goals against a Swedish 2nd division side... after having not played consistently for almost 5 years... and people are seriously making the claim that he should get called in? Thats a complete joke. Is he talented? Yes. Should he get called in this window? Absolutely not.

GGG set the standard - you have to be getting minutes consistently and producing for your position at club to (generally speaking) be in consideration... thats why it will not be shocking when Johannsson isn't called in. But if he continues to play and score goals up through the next window, then he may have created a good argument for inclusion at that time... but not now at this time.

And come on now... you and I already went over the Kayo situation in the Camp Cupcake thread. I won't address it, but if you need a refresher, here is the link:
http://locker.yanks-abroad.com/?mode=topics&t...

Lilshmike
Post #459
Friday February 28, 2020 7:51pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from cudevil

We shouldn't debate whether we should continue to call in and run out guys that we know aren't good enough to play at a high level internationally? I am fine not calling in ArJo because he is not reliable from a health point of view. If that issue was resolved, though, he should get called in every time before Zardes. I could care less how many goals Zardes scores in the MLS-he can't play at the international level beyond the minnows of CONCACAF and shouldn't continue to be called in if there are other healthy options. Period. End of.
You realize that you an I are on the same page here, right?

The only difference is that you say "we shouldn't call in Zardes because he sucks, and we should look at someone else" and I say "Zardes doesn't give GGG much of an option because (in reality) the rest of the options to choose from will have already been included (Jozy if healthy, Sargent, Morris), are hurt and/or haven't been playing for their club (Weah, ArJo, Wood), or they suck just as bad as him"

If you are going to choose between crappy striker A or crappy striker B... the one who is scoring the most goals is going to get selected. Period. End of.

And unfortunately... thats Zardes. And again, this isn't controversial and should not be a surprise, because of the exact reasons that I continue to say and constantly get grilled or receive push back from... there aren't many options to choose from who are playing consistently at a level as good as MLS or better, who are healthy and available to be selected, and who are scoring goals.

Whittle down the list, and there are really only a couple of guys... and guess who is always at the top. Zardes. Why? Because he is consistently scoring the most goals. I don't like it, but thats where we are until younger players start emerging and pushing him out (which is beginning to happen with a number of players in the U23 group for Olympic Qualifying).

Again, I don't particularly rate the guy, but I understand why he continues to get called in. Its not a GGG problem, its a player pool problem.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #460
Friday February 28, 2020 8:12pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 937
Original post from cudevil

We shouldn't debate whether we should continue to call in and run out guys that we know aren't good enough to play at a high level internationally? I am fine not calling in ArJo because he is not reliable from a health point of view. If that issue was resolved, though, he should get called in every time before Zardes. I could care less how many goals Zardes scores in the MLS-he can't play at the international level beyond the minnows of CONCACAF and shouldn't continue to be called in if there are other healthy options. Period. End of.


To be fair not all Zardes goals have been vs minnows. I seem to remember his scoring against the Dutch and at least one South American team, don't care to look it up right now. What has Kevin Bacon done that he would always merit a call up over Zardes? I am not a huge Zardes fan but he is our most stable and most reliable forward right now. That is the sad state of the USMNT right now. We have better strikers coming but no one else has yet stepped up to the plate.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #461
Friday February 28, 2020 8:15pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 937
Original post from Lilshmike

You realize that you an I are on the same page here, right?

The only difference is that you say "we shouldn't call in Zardes because he sucks, and we should look at someone else" and I say "Zardes doesn't give GGG much of an option because (in reality) the rest of the options to choose from will have already been included (Jozy if healthy, Sargent, Morris), are hurt and/or haven't been playing for their club (Weah, ArJo, Wood), or they suck just as bad as him"

If you are going to choose between crappy striker A or crappy striker B... the one who is scoring the most goals is going to get selected. Period. End of.

And unfortunately... thats Zardes. And again, this isn't controversial and should not be a surprise, because of the exact reasons that I continue to say and constantly get grilled or receive push back from... there aren't many options to choose from who are playing consistently at a level as good as MLS or better, who are healthy and available to be selected, and who are scoring goals.

Whittle down the list, and there are really only a couple of guys... and guess who is always at the top. Zardes. Why? Because he is consistently scoring the most goals. I don't like it, but thats where we are until younger players start emerging and pushing him out (which is beginning to happen with a number of players in the U23 group for Olympic Qualifying).

Again, I don't particularly rate the guy, but I understand why he continues to get called in. Its not a GGG problem, its a player pool problem.


Haha, we pretty much just posted the same thing. I don't always agree with you but you are spot on here.

db707
Post #462
Friday February 28, 2020 8:22pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,051
@Lilshmike, I take your point, almost everyone we have who can play striker has some significant flag, be it injury, poor form, being left out of the lineup, in a weaker league, etc. I too would love to replace Zardes, but guys have to be available and making some kind of case.

Novakovich has been starting recently and scored last week for a team in a promotion place in Serie B, so I agree with @2tone there. I'd rather take another look at him, 23 and without a horrible injury history, than Johannsson. I liked ArJo's game 6, 7 years ago, but let's be honest, he's at best a bench option in case we need a goal, he's too brittle to be considered for anything but that.

Aron's got a good sense of humor still, at least:
https://twitter.com/aronjo20/status/121165073...

Samtom23
Post #463
Saturday February 29, 2020 2:49am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 168
I am all for Noka getting another look, he leads his team in assists as well. And we see that Sargent isn't on the Olympic roster and Haji Wright too. I would call in those guys and Arjo and Zardes. I agree Arjo just a bench option but the timing would be good considering the March camp will be impacted a lot by injury and Olympics.

There are some young forwards that look promising Ferrira in Dallas and Nick Gioacchini in Lihue 2.

I would like to see Gooch instead of Boyd. And on defence Hines Ike but he may be injured

blaise213
Post #464
Saturday February 29, 2020 12:57pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,051
Johannsson is a starter for me when he's healthy !!

Know Nothing
Post #465
Saturday February 29, 2020 7:29pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,759
Original post from Lilshmike

Controversial as in... inevitably... when he doesn't get called in, people will lose their minds and cry about ArJo getting "snubbed" over Zardes, when legitimately he hasn't done enough to even warrant inclusion yet. He played 45 minutes in a Swedish cup game and scored 2 goals against a Swedish 2nd division side... after having not played consistently for almost 5 years... and people are seriously making the claim that he should get called in? Thats a complete joke. Is he talented? Yes. Should he get called in this window? Absolutely not.

GGG set the standard - you have to be getting minutes consistently and producing for your position at club to (generally speaking) be in consideration... thats why it will not be shocking when Johannsson isn't called in. But if he continues to play and score goals up through the next window, then he may have created a good argument for inclusion at that time... but not now at this time.

And come on now... you and I already went over the Kayo situation in the Camp Cupcake thread. I won't address it, but if you need a refresher, here is the link:
http://locker.yanks-abroad.com/?mode=topics&t...


I am fully aware of the Kayo conversation. As you just said, GGG set the standard and has broken the standard with the Kayo call up. So he has set up an opportunity to again to bring in a player into camp who gives us a different look. A player that has produced in the past, played in a much higher league than MLS, but unfortunately has been hit with injuries.

And do not say it was only camp cupcake. At the end of the day everyone that played got a cap, and they do not put an asterisk next to those matches with an explanation that they were only camp cupcake. And since they count just like any other match, GGG should conduct it the same and apply the same standards. So either there is a standard or there is not a standard.

None of the MLS players he would be competing against have any real match fitness, so the argument of playing matches is a wash. In fact, using the criteria "getting minutes consistently and producing for your position at club" should exclude most, if not all, of the MLS players this window. So I would agree Nova deserves a callup using this criteria and probably start. And ArJo should be judged on past performances just like the MLS when being considered since none of them have any real recent experiences.

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