PRESS BOX REPORTS
RECAPS
EXTRA TIME
YANKS ABROAD LOCKER ROOM
 
dolcem
Post #31
Thursday August 15, 2013 1:24pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from USAGunner

It not being "free-flowing" matters not. That just means the strategy/tactics are different not MORE.

Also just because you LIVE in a geographical locale doesn't mean you know the nuances of a sport.

I've never stated that Football has more than Futbol, just that they are different and equal in that aspect.

Both have different strategies and tactics (and both are VERY wide ranging and differing in philosophies, etc). Neither is more or less, just different.


You can't really argue whether or not one is more "tactical" than the other because that doesn't really mean anything. On the one hand, American football is more "tactical" because it consists of predetermined plays. Gridiron coaches face a tactical battle much more than soccer manager do...as JK said, gridiron is a 'coach's game' and soccer is a 'player's game.' On the other hand, you could say soccer is more tactical because it's (save for three subs) the same set of players the whole match and there's no stopping and starting.

What definitely is true about soccer vs. football, however, is the diversity of styles and the incompatibility with players of different styles. And the fact that soccer requires much more 'athletic intelligence' than football. American football players just follow a simple instruction for 5 seconds and then stop and start again a minute later (taking lots of long breaks). Soccer players are playing a totally free-flowing game where they make all their own decisions for two continuous 45 minute halves.

This is why soccer players develop much different than football players, but since we use the football system (NCAA) to develop our soccer players, and since we view the sport as too similar to gridiron, we are lagging behind other nations in terms of technical development. That's why that even though we have more registered soccer players than any country in the world, great facilities, and great athletes, we just aren't producing truly quality players yet.
GET A CLUB TEAM
USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #32
Thursday August 15, 2013 2:26pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from dolcem

You can't really argue whether or not one is more "tactical" than the other because that doesn't really mean anything. On the one hand, American football is more "tactical" because it consists of predetermined plays. Gridiron coaches face a tactical battle much more than soccer manager do...as JK said, gridiron is a 'coach's game' and soccer is a 'player's game.' On the other hand, you could say soccer is more tactical because it's (save for three subs) the same set of players the whole match and there's no stopping and starting.

What definitely is true about soccer vs. football, however, is the diversity of styles and the incompatibility with players of different styles. And the fact that soccer requires much more 'athletic intelligence' than football. American football players just follow a simple instruction for 5 seconds and then stop and start again a minute later (taking lots of long breaks). Soccer players are playing a totally free-flowing game where they make all their own decisions for two continuous 45 minute halves.

This is why soccer players develop much different than football players, but since we use the football system (NCAA) to develop our soccer players, and since we view the sport as too similar to gridiron, we are lagging behind other nations in terms of technical development. That's why that even though we have more registered soccer players than any country in the world, great facilities, and great athletes, we just aren't producing truly quality players yet.


Perhaps I can go with the athletic intelligence statement for SOME positions in American football, although there is a lot more intelligence to american football than you seem to know (or admit) in your above statement. In American football you often have to make multiple decisions in a 1 second span (really less than that), sure you call on past knowledge and what you have studied, but the same can be said about futbol. American football has multiple split second decisions every play (for most players), where as Futbol you may have one or 2 in a couple seconds and constantly doing that with no break. So really the only difference is Football's decisions are heaped on top of each other in a split second, then you get a break. Futbol you have multiple decisions in a second or two, but no break (although that isn't exactly true as if you are a striker or defender you get some breaks...there might not be a break in play, but if you are a striker (depending on the offensive style) you can sit at midfield while the other team is in attack, yes you have to be on alert, but you still get a break. Anyways based on your statement you highly understimate the amount of intellect/instinct that it takes to play American Football.

As far as diverse styles in Futbol but not football and the players incompatability. That isn't exactly true. There are plenty of types of defenses/offenses that some players can't play. Sure the Elite players can play in any offense/defense, but the same can be said for Futbol. Peyton Manning can't play in the Pistol Offense, Reggie Bush can't play in a smash mouth, run between the tackles, I formation power offense, Not every LB can play in a 3-4 (and blitz like Lawrence Taylor). I can go on and on.

I agree wholeheartedly the games are different and our youth program for Soccer should not resemble the youth program for Football. We need a top to bottom change in our youth philosophy.
www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com
bbakerxyz
Post #33
Thursday August 15, 2013 2:51pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
"Nowhere near producing a world class field player?" Where have you been? Donovan was (is?) pretty damn close. Bradley isn't too far away.

dolcem
Post #34
Thursday August 15, 2013 2:58pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from USAGunner

Perhaps I can go with the athletic intelligence statement for SOME positions in American football, although there is a lot more intelligence to american football than you seem to know (or admit) in your above statement. In American football you often have to make multiple decisions in a 1 second span (really less than that), sure you call on past knowledge and what you have studied, but the same can be said about futbol. American football has multiple split second decisions every play (for most players), where as Futbol you may have one or 2 in a couple seconds and constantly doing that with no break. So really the only difference is Football's decisions are heaped on top of each other in a split second, then you get a break. Futbol you have multiple decisions in a second or two, but no break (although that isn't exactly true as if you are a striker or defender you get some breaks...there might not be a break in play, but if you are a striker (depending on the offensive style) you can sit at midfield while the other team is in attack, yes you have to be on alert, but you still get a break. Anyways based on your statement you highly understimate the amount of intellect/instinct that it takes to play American Football.

As far as diverse styles in Futbol but not football and the players incompatability. That isn't exactly true. There are plenty of types of defenses/offenses that some players can't play. Sure the Elite players can play in any offense/defense, but the same can be said for Futbol. Peyton Manning can't play in the Pistol Offense, Reggie Bush can't play in a smash mouth, run between the tackles, I formation power offense, Not every LB can play in a 3-4 (and blitz like Lawrence Taylor). I can go on and on.

I agree wholeheartedly the games are different and our youth program for Soccer should not resemble the youth program for Football. We need a top to bottom change in our youth philosophy.


As far as the diversity arguments go I completely disagree. Of course football players have special roles and some guys won't fit in well to another team. American football players are specialized too. But this is much more pronounced in soccer. If you come from a different culture/style, you could be a great player but not adapt. This is why you have players who are amazing in one league and couldn't succeed in another league. Every country has its own unique style and some don't fit together well (for example, no Brazilians have ever been great in England). There is no possible way you can argue that these differences are as pronounced in American football. It's not like all Big 10 teams play a certain way and that none of the players would be able to adapt if they went to the SEC. It's not like players from a certain state or region can't play together with other regions. You can pretty easily change styles in American football too...change a few players and adopt a whole new offense (or defense) the next season. But even if you buy and sell a few players, you wouldn't be able to get any group of Englishmen to play like a group of Latin players.

I was a hardcore American football fan growing up and I'm aware of the 'intelligence/instinct' involved. Of course the quarterback needs to have a great degree of athletic intelligence but some positions don't really require much. Lineman, for example, or kickers. For the other positions it's more timing than overall intelligence...your position and role on the field is very clearly defined (you're supposed to move a certain way based on the play your coach called and only deviate from this sometimes; and immediately afterwards you get a break and don't do this again for almost another minute).

In soccer you can have guys who are amazing players yet not amazing athletes. This only happens in football with quarterbacks, kickers, and punters. This shows that soccer is a more mental game. Football is more based on athleticism. You can give some 14 year old a football and teach him to be a Hall of Famer. Some football players didn't even start until college. This is absolutely not the case with soccer. You need to be constantly watching, playing, and talking about it from a young age so that you can develop the IQ to succeed at a high level. People growing up in soccer cultures have this. We don't yet. And until we do, we won't produce world class players.
GET A CLUB TEAM
dolcem
Post #35
Thursday August 15, 2013 3:07pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from bbakerxyz

"Nowhere near producing a world class field player?" Where have you been? Donovan was (is?) pretty damn close. Bradley isn't too far away.


Like I said before, at best, we can produce really good hustle players...Donovan, Dempsey, Bradley. Those guys are great but still a cut below world class. We won't get any truly world class, "quality" field players until we change our approach to the game. Look at how many people play the sport in the US now and how much the infrastructure has improved since the days of Ramos, Reyna, McBride, or even the '02 generation, yet we haven't produced anyone better than those guys since then other than maybe Dempsey, Bradley, and Altidore (three in 10 years is a lot less than I was expecting, and I figured by this point, we would have people playing for elite teams). This isn't really our fault though and nothing to feel bad about, we're new to the sport and it'll be a little while before our institutions, coaches, and players start to produce world class players. Good thing we already have an academy system in place and it is working out pretty well (Bradley and Altidore) we just need to wait a generation or two and we'll be amazing (once the next group turns into coaches).
GET A CLUB TEAM
CBoyd3142
Probably far from where you are...
Post #36
Thursday August 15, 2013 3:17pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 320
What defines a "world class player"? This could be debated up and down - for some people, I'm sure it's Ronaldo, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Ibra, etc. For others, it could be top national team players from different countries.
Toffee Fan....for the moment
dolcem
Post #37
Thursday August 15, 2013 3:29pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from CBoyd3142

What defines a "world class player"? This could be debated up and down - for some people, I'm sure it's Ronaldo, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Ibra, etc. For others, it could be top national team players from different countries.


Yeah there isn't really a good word to describe what I'm trying to say. I explained at length in another thread called 'development' a while back.

Basically if we keep playing the way we do, our culture will produce stronger, faster, fitter, tougher, bigger versions of guys like Cherundolo, Bradley, EJ, Gonzalez, etc. Some of them will play at a very high level. But it will be very difficult for us to produce players with that attacking quality and technique you see from some of the top players in the world, the ones that can really take a game by the scruff of the neck. Of course the athletic, hustler 'American style' players will always make up the core of our team, but any team needs at least one creative, world class attacking force (preferably two or more) if it wants to be really good. We need to start to recognize that distinction to improve.
GET A CLUB TEAM
USAGunner
West Palm Beach
Post #38
Thursday August 15, 2013 4:32pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 1,322
Original post from dolcem

As far as the diversity arguments go I completely disagree. Of course football players have special roles and some guys won't fit in well to another team. American football players are specialized too. But this is much more pronounced in soccer. If you come from a different culture/style, you could be a great player but not adapt. This is why you have players who are amazing in one league and couldn't succeed in another league. Every country has its own unique style and some don't fit together well (for example, no Brazilians have ever been great in England). There is no possible way you can argue that these differences are as pronounced in American football. It's not like all Big 10 teams play a certain way and that none of the players would be able to adapt if they went to the SEC. It's not like players from a certain state or region can't play together with other regions. You can pretty easily change styles in American football too...change a few players and adopt a whole new offense (or defense) the next season. But even if you buy and sell a few players, you wouldn't be able to get any group of Englishmen to play like a group of Latin players.

I was a hardcore American football fan growing up and I'm aware of the 'intelligence/instinct' involved. Of course the quarterback needs to have a great degree of athletic intelligence but some positions don't really require much. Lineman, for example, or kickers. For the other positions it's more timing than overall intelligence...your position and role on the field is very clearly defined (you're supposed to move a certain way based on the play your coach called and only deviate from this sometimes; and immediately afterwards you get a break and don't do this again for almost another minute).

In soccer you can have guys who are amazing players yet not amazing athletes. This only happens in football with quarterbacks, kickers, and punters. This shows that soccer is a more mental game. Football is more based on athleticism. You can give some 14 year old a football and teach him to be a Hall of Famer. Some football players didn't even start until college. This is absolutely not the case with soccer. You need to be constantly watching, playing, and talking about it from a young age so that you can develop the IQ to succeed at a high level. People growing up in soccer cultures have this. We don't yet. And until we do, we won't produce world class players.


A lot of that is going to depend on how you define what an athlete is. IMO there are several ways to be a good athlete. You don't have to just run fast (although that is certainly the most commonly thing refered to as an athlete), being strong, having good agility (which you can have without being fast), lateral movement, balance, jumping ability, etc (I can go on). I don't think there are bad athletes in either football or soccer. Just different kind of athletes.

Also for some positions in football those roles are not as clearly defined as you think. It's not "no matter what this is what you do" (that used to be the case with Offensive line and even RB and WR...however no longer is it the case with zone running games and Read-options at WR). It's more along the lines of if you see 'A' you do this, if you see 'B' you do something different, etc. There are multiple things an offense or defense can do and your assignment is going to be determined based on what you see (and you only have a second to decipher what it is you are seeing and decide what you are going to do). Running games used to be simpler You block person A and Running back goes to hole A (which is certainly still the case in some offenses). However many teams are running zone plays now. So now as a RB you know your first step, but that's about it. You can go a multitude of ways depending on how your OL blocks (if everyone gets the reach block then you will go around end, however if the Tackle misses and the Guard makes his block now you are going between the G and T, etc...that's how it's designed). It's no different than the decisions a Forward will make in deciding where to make a run or the timing of it. Even with most passing games now the WR has a lot of decisions to make (mostly dealing with spacing). They see the Corner playing a short zone, then they have to run a post if the Safeties are playing a Cover 2, however if the corner is playing a deep zone, now you have to run a 5 yard curl or a 5 yard out, etc. WR's have 3-4 different routes they can run on a given play depending on what the defense is in. Same thing an attacking player will have to do when making a run, etc.

Also the "break" isn't exactly a mental break, it's a physical one. You get the call in the huddle and you are immediately thinking of what the concept of that play is and your responsibility, then as the defense lines up you are diagnosing what formation they are in and what your basic assignment is and making any necessary checks. Then as soon as the ball is snapped you have a few decisions to make within a second.

Football is not near as simple as doing A. A may be the base assignment but there are a multitude of things that can happen to where you aren't doing A you are doing B, C, or D. You are doing that 50-60 times a game.

It's not that you are overvaluing Soccer, as you aren't, Soccer is a very intelligent sport (which many American's don't get), I think you are just undervaluing the intelligence of American Football (which believe it or not, many Americans do too...they are just painted as dumb jocks).

I do agree that our youth system does not foster the growing of the intelligence needed to perform in the highest of leagues. I do also agree generally that American's have produced many great hustle players. However after last nights and this summers performance I would say Michael Bradley and Jozy Altidore are not just hustle players, they are very gifted technically and have the intelligence for the game and are world class players (I think Jozy is going to surprise MANY people in the EPL). Don't think he will be at Sunderland very long.
www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com
tardis91
Post #39
Thursday August 15, 2013 5:17pm

Joined Jun 2013
Total Posts: 84
If you are just talking about youth system development then of course we could get better. The reason it lacks so far behind at younger ages is an emphasis on winning, not getting better. So they teach kick it long and see what happens.

I think we are having different views on the elitism I was speaking of. I think we would all be better served to stop saying soccer is so complicated, its really not. Its just intricate. You have teach a player to not only know his or her role but adapt to changes on the fly. While the learning of the game may take more time, its no harder to learn than the proper way to play point guard in basketball(not the NBA thats not basketball anymore for the most part). You have to anticipate and adjust, know a bunch of different plays and positions of players on the court, you have to really focus not only on yourself and your defender but everyone else on the court. This is true of soccer as well.

Coming out and saying people are not intelligent enough to understand the game only pushes more people away. Getting people and especially coaches to understand how to teach athletes and how to teach parents to understand whats happening is the first step in development. You do that by teaching and fostering children in the right environment, not by saying soccer is an elite sport, because thats why the sport in the country is the way it is now. Pay to play, and thats slowly changing.

Anyway I love the sport but I understand other people will not like it, even after learning it. The best way to begin development is starting with losing the pay to play elitist view and bringing the game to everyone, which is the way it is in other countries.

dolcem
Post #40
Saturday August 17, 2013 3:52pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from USAGunner

A lot of that is going to depend on how you define what an athlete is. IMO there are several ways to be a good athlete. You don't have to just run fast (although that is certainly the most commonly thing refered to as an athlete), being strong, having good agility (which you can have without being fast), lateral movement, balance, jumping ability, etc (I can go on). I don't think there are bad athletes in either football or soccer. Just different kind of athletes.

Also for some positions in football those roles are not as clearly defined as you think. It's not "no matter what this is what you do" (that used to be the case with Offensive line and even RB and WR...however no longer is it the case with zone running games and Read-options at WR). It's more along the lines of if you see 'A' you do this, if you see 'B' you do something different, etc. There are multiple things an offense or defense can do and your assignment is going to be determined based on what you see (and you only have a second to decipher what it is you are seeing and decide what you are going to do). Running games used to be simpler You block person A and Running back goes to hole A (which is certainly still the case in some offenses). However many teams are running zone plays now. So now as a RB you know your first step, but that's about it. You can go a multitude of ways depending on how your OL blocks (if everyone gets the reach block then you will go around end, however if the Tackle misses and the Guard makes his block now you are going between the G and T, etc...that's how it's designed). It's no different than the decisions a Forward will make in deciding where to make a run or the timing of it. Even with most passing games now the WR has a lot of decisions to make (mostly dealing with spacing). They see the Corner playing a short zone, then they have to run a post if the Safeties are playing a Cover 2, however if the corner is playing a deep zone, now you have to run a 5 yard curl or a 5 yard out, etc. WR's have 3-4 different routes they can run on a given play depending on what the defense is in. Same thing an attacking player will have to do when making a run, etc.

Also the "break" isn't exactly a mental break, it's a physical one. You get the call in the huddle and you are immediately thinking of what the concept of that play is and your responsibility, then as the defense lines up you are diagnosing what formation they are in and what your basic assignment is and making any necessary checks. Then as soon as the ball is snapped you have a few decisions to make within a second.

Football is not near as simple as doing A. A may be the base assignment but there are a multitude of things that can happen to where you aren't doing A you are doing B, C, or D. You are doing that 50-60 times a game.

It's not that you are overvaluing Soccer, as you aren't, Soccer is a very intelligent sport (which many American's don't get), I think you are just undervaluing the intelligence of American Football (which believe it or not, many Americans do too...they are just painted as dumb jocks).

I do agree that our youth system does not foster the growing of the intelligence needed to perform in the highest of leagues. I do also agree generally that American's have produced many great hustle players. However after last nights and this summers performance I would say Michael Bradley and Jozy Altidore are not just hustle players, they are very gifted technically and have the intelligence for the game and are world class players (I think Jozy is going to surprise MANY people in the EPL). Don't think he will be at Sunderland very long.


I'm aware of the intelligence required to play American football but I don't understand how you could compare it to soccer. You can be small and slow in soccer and be incredibly gifted (Xavi). This is not the case in American football unless you're a kicker, punter, or maybe a quarterback. This proves that soccer is more mental than football and basketball. Strength, size, and speed matters more in those sports relative to intelligence. Teams constantly draft college players based on their size and athleticism alone (even if they weren't that great in college) because they know they can teach them the other aspects of the game into their mid twenties. This isn't the case in soccer.

And as I said before, you can teach a high school or even a college student who has never watched or played the game before to play football. This isn't the case with soccer.

American players are good athletes but what separates them from their European counterparts is the lack of IQ (and skill of course). The tactical understanding just isn't there, one of the reasons European coaches usually struggle with American players upon coming here. Soccer is such a mental game that in order to be good at it, you have to come from a culture that has been playing the sport a while and constantly watch, talk about, and play it from a very young age. The ones that don't are left behind (one reason we don't develop players as well as other countries, our kids start too late).

I think another thing holding us back is that we don't understand that soccer is fundamentally different from gridiron and basketball and that it is a much more mental game. We value athleticism and size way too much in soccer because that's what matters most in football and basketball. But soccer is a much more mental game and sometimes the 5'5" slow kid might turn out to be an amazing player because of his intelligence. Couldn't happen in football or basketball.
GET A CLUB TEAM
bbakerxyz
Post #41
Saturday August 17, 2013 4:37pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
No, no, no. The key difference between soccer and American football is that soccer is more about skill & finesse, while football (and basketball) is about power. In general (and of course we're getting better) the US screens for physical ability (size, strength, endurance) way too early in soccer so we miss a lot of guys who could turn out to be Xavi and all of those other pussies who play for Spain.

dolcem
Post #42
Monday August 19, 2013 3:01pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,805
Original post from bbakerxyz

No, no, no. The key difference between soccer and American football is that soccer is more about skill & finesse, while football (and basketball) is about power. In general (and of course we're getting better) the US screens for physical ability (size, strength, endurance) way too early in soccer so we miss a lot of guys who could turn out to be Xavi and all of those other pussies who play for Spain.


True, skill is a massive part of soccer, moreso than it is in football (unless you're a quarterback, kicker, or punter). But intelligence is also more important than in soccer/football basketball. There are a lot of great soccer players who aren't particularly skilled or athletic yet are great just because of their intelligence and movement...Inzaghi, Lampard, Maldini, etc. It's not like that as much in basketball or football. Sure you have your Jason Kidd's and your Doug Flutie's but they are very rare and can only be found in certain positions.

Relative to each other, football and basketball are more about size and athleticism and soccer is more about skill and intelligence. The sooner we realize that the better or youth development will get.
GET A CLUB TEAM
bbakerxyz
Post #43
Tuesday August 20, 2013 3:14pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
I agree w/ most of what you're saying and the US is getting better at all of this. The coaching kids are getting today is light years ahead of what we got back in the dinosaur ages when I was playing.

Another thing you're touching on is the spatial recognition part. The old, "blindfold him and he could tell you where the other 21 guys on the field are." This is the je ne sais quoi that a lot of the good ones have, especially if they aren't great athletes. This dynamic isn't as much a part of the game in basketball, football, etc.

Page 3 of 3
« Previous 1 2 3

With Jesse Marsch and David Wagner at the helms of teams in the top flight, YA will cover their exploits this season.
RECENT POSTS
YA Transfer Tracker
Yanks Face Relegation in England
Tale of Two Young Yanks in Europe
Wagner Nears Premier League Goal