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recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #61
Tuesday October 1, 2013 4:47pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,153
looks good to me, but I'd take Cam in CB over Besler and replace him with Jones.

navi8132
Post #62
Tuesday October 1, 2013 5:47pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,942
CB is a position who can keep a calm head. Cameron panics a bit. I wouldn't want him to be our starting CB. Besler stays calm.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #63
Tuesday October 1, 2013 7:37pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,153
I won't concede or argue that, I'll only say that Cam has better recovery speed and a lot more high level competition experience and I think that's worth a little more. Just an opinion...but I can say that if Cam isn't going to start at CB, I'd rather see him in that CDM role. Jones is good but he won't be with us next cycle (more than likely) so we should start playing the most probable starter for 2018.

dolcem
Post #64
Tuesday October 1, 2013 7:57pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from rainORshine

there are 2 "solutions" to this problem:

1) use marginally talented, or out of position (or both) options in wide areas: (JK's solution)
- williams, zusi, corona, bedoya on the right
- shea, torres, EJ, gomez, davis and others on the left

2) utilize your most talented attacking players in a front 3 (4-3-3)
- altidore
- donovan
- dempsey
- johannsson
- EJ
- boyd
- bedoya

i realize 4-3-3 has not looked great under JK, but i would suggest JK is not savvy enough to define roles properly and choose a good combo of CMs...

for fans of keeping the "4-2-3-1":

how about chandler at an RM? or LB (with fabian at LM)?


We don't have the right personnel for the 4-3-3. We don't have any inside forwards (except for maybe Dempsey).

Out of all the players you listed for the 4-3-3 only Bedoya, Donovan, and Dempsey are natural wingers. Of course we were going to have to try out other options, and of course most would fail.

I really don't like the idea of taking out an attacking midfielder and adding a defensive one, and that's what you do when you take the 4-2-3-1 and turn it into a 4-3-3. We've traditionally struggled in the attack (from open play) because we don't have enough creativity. We need all the attacking players we can get. The 4-3-3 is too defensive. And adding Kljestan to the midfield isn't going to solve our problems.

Additionally, Dempsey, Donovan, and Bedoya aren't inside forwards. Dempsey can be, but none of those guys can really drive an attack the way you need your inside forwards to do in the 4-3-3, especially now that the first two are getting past it. Bedoya just isn't good enough. If you look at teams that use the 4-3-3, they have really good wingers. This formation gives them a lot of space and thus freedom to lead an attack (there's no CAM in between them and only one striker since three midfielders are behind them) so you use that formation only when you have really good attackers.

And we don't have those players. Dempsey is more of a poaching winger. He is getting at taking opportunities when they come to him but he doesn't really drive an attack and create for others (which is why many times he'll do nothing all game but then score the winning goal for us in the end). He could definitely play LW in a 4-3-3 but only if the RW was an absolute beast. I don't really see Landon as an RW in a 4-3-3. In such an advanced role he'd be better on the left, where he could cut inside. Donovan is better on the right if he's sitting farther back, like an RM in a 4-4-2. Bedoya just flat out isn't good enough to be one of our wingers in a 4-3-3. He could do it in a 4-2-3-1 though. And of course then Altidore would be isolated at the top and he's not good at creating chances without service.

The 4-2-3-1 is the best formation right now (there's a reason it's he most popular) and with Donovan, Dempsey, and Bedoya sitting behind Altidore, we have an attack that I feel pretty comfortable with. If Arriola gets PT at Tijuana than we have a suitable back-up as well (and if Corona gets PT maybe he could too).

I'd consider Chandler as the RM but I see him as more as a defender. And we could only do that if Cherundolo is fit and in form (who knows if that'll be the case) because we don't have any other RB's. No way in hell Johnson is playing in the midfield. Beasley and Castillo would get eaten alive by elite wingers.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #65
Tuesday October 1, 2013 9:19pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from dolcem

We don't have the right personnel for the 4-3-3. We don't have any inside forwards (except for maybe Dempsey).



i disagree.

kljestan is as at least as good a CM as bedoya is a RM.

and i think donovan could function just as well or better in a 4-3-3 as he could in 4-2-3-1

advantages of 4-3-3:
- puts jones (or someone else) at a 6, which allows bradley freedom to go forward
- 6 allows more cover for OBs to get forward
- puts donovan closer to goal

taking off "attacking" mid - bedoya - for CM - kljestan - and pushing jones to a CDM allows fabian, chandler, bradley, and donovan all to attack more.

oh, and kljestan is at 4 goals, 1 assist on the season. bedoya has 0 and 0 so far for nantes. not sure you are losing a lot of offense there...

dolcem
Post #66
Tuesday October 1, 2013 9:39pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from rainORshine

i disagree.

kljestan is as at least as good a CM as bedoya is a RM.

and i think donovan could function just as well or better in a 4-3-3 as he could in 4-2-3-1

advantages of 4-3-3:
- puts jones (or someone else) at a 6, which allows bradley freedom to go forward
- 6 allows more cover for OBs to get forward
- puts donovan closer to goal

taking off "attacking" mid - bedoya - for CM - kljestan - and pushing jones to a CDM allows fabian, chandler, bradley, and donovan all to attack more.

oh, and kljestan is at 4 goals, 1 assist on the season. bedoya has 0 and 0 so far for nantes. not sure you are losing a lot of offense there...


It's not an accurate comparison. You can't look at it like you're simply switching Bedoya for Kljestan. It's about he formation. One has 4 attacking players and 2 CM's. The other has 3 attacking players, 2 CM's, and 1 DM. It's a lot more conservative. And Dempsey and Donovan are definitely not the type of players to be the wingers in a 4-3-3. Both disappear too much during games and they're getting old. We need another attacking player in there.

And the goals comparison isn't an accurate one. Kljestan has never been a scorer (not that he should be, he's a CM) and he's scored a couple tap-ins recently but that doesn't mean he's going to "add offense" for the NT. He plays on the best team in his league, one that beats up on tiny teams by several goals and he has gotten a few of those. Bedoya is playing on one of the worst teams in a very competitive league and they don't score many goals. I'm not trying to argue that Bedoya is better than Kljestan (I'd say they're at the same level but it's not an important or valid comparison since they play different positions) but the 4-2-3-1 is definitely better for us than a 4-3-3.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
navi8132
Post #67
Tuesday October 1, 2013 9:43pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,942
Name one time that the USMNT looked good in a 4-3-3. They haven't. No reason to try to strive for it just because Barca made it a sexy.

rainORshine
Post #68
Tuesday October 1, 2013 10:14pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from navi8132

Name one time that the USMNT looked good in a 4-3-3. They haven't. No reason to try to strive for it just because Barca made it a sexy.


barca made it sexy? 4-3-3 is a pretty standard formation

last time US looked good in a 4-3-3 was 2011 GC quarter-final 2-0 over jamaica. jones, bradley and kljestan played in a 3-man midfield.

by the final BB had gone back to his 4-4-2, with kljestan on the bench (that was basically the last time kljestan given important minutes)

admsghs27
Post #69
Tuesday October 1, 2013 10:41pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,161
Honestly I find barcelonas style boring all that possesion from back to the middle with not much attack is boring... Now Dortmund, Munich, Napoli, arsenal, atletico Madrid, have attractive beutiful soccer...

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #70
Tuesday October 1, 2013 10:57pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,153
Agreed, Arsenal is really clicking at the moment and that game this past Sunday was some of the best attacking football I've ever seen in the BPL

rainORshine
Post #71
Tuesday October 1, 2013 11:30pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from dolcem

It's not an accurate comparison. You can't look at it like you're simply switching Bedoya for Kljestan. It's about he formation. One has 4 attacking players and 2 CM's. The other has 3 attacking players, 2 CM's, and 1 DM. It's a lot more conservative. And Dempsey and Donovan are definitely not the type of players to be the wingers in a 4-3-3. Both disappear too much during games and they're getting old. We need another attacking player in there.

And the goals comparison isn't an accurate one. Kljestan has never been a scorer (not that he should be, he's a CM) and he's scored a couple tap-ins recently but that doesn't mean he's going to "add offense" for the NT. He plays on the best team in his league, one that beats up on tiny teams by several goals and he has gotten a few of those. Bedoya is playing on one of the worst teams in a very competitive league and they don't score many goals. I'm not trying to argue that Bedoya is better than Kljestan (I'd say they're at the same level but it's not an important or valid comparison since they play different positions) but the 4-2-3-1 is definitely better for us than a 4-3-3.


i just dont think it is more or less conservative. just different tactics. you are not accounting for the fact that a pure DM allows others to attack more.

i dont think the wide options are great either way - whether it be dempsey and donovan in a 4-3-3 or donovan and bedoya in a 4-2-3-1 (which essentially turns into a 4-4-1-1 against good teams)

and bedoya has only emerged as a decent option in the last few months, basically moving ahead of pretty poor options like zusi and EJ. that is why it is hard for me to understand why JK has not looked more closely at using a guy like kljestan (or torres or diskerud for that matter) in a 4-3-3 as an alternative

he has looked at both torres and diskerud as CAMs - but we both know that is not a smart idea.

just find it hard to believe that JK has not once in this entire cycle partnered a more "skilled" player (not jones, edu, williams, etc.) next to bradley with a DM sitting behind

people keep saying "weve have seen that". well, no, we really have not

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #72
Wednesday October 2, 2013 5:38am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 294
I'd be surprised if we tried to pull off having only one Dmid protecting the back line at a WC. I think we'll have a stay home 6 with MB predominately playing deeper to collect the ball and provide a pressure relief outlet pass. MB will pick his spots going forward, but I think it almost looks like twin 6s with MB only slightly ahead. MB would push up if we were chasing the game. I think the base formation at a WC has to be 4-2-3-1.

dolcem
Post #73
Wednesday October 2, 2013 7:12am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from admsghs27

Honestly I find barcelonas style boring all that possesion from back to the middle with not much attack is boring... Now Dortmund, Munich, Napoli, arsenal, atletico Madrid, have attractive beutiful soccer...


Whoa there, I could understand if you preferred the direct, attacking style of Munich and Dortmund to Barca's but Atletico??? They play defensive soccer and only care about the result. Simeone has always been like that. And it's a little soon to be talking about Napoli. Also, Barca is changing their style of play and becoming a lot more direct (they lost the possession battle last week).

Original post from rainORshine

i just dont think it is more or less conservative. just different tactics. you are not accounting for the fact that a pure DM allows others to attack more.

i dont think the wide options are great either way - whether it be dempsey and donovan in a 4-3-3 or donovan and bedoya in a 4-2-3-1 (which essentially turns into a 4-4-1-1 against good teams)

and bedoya has only emerged as a decent option in the last few months, basically moving ahead of pretty poor options like zusi and EJ. that is why it is hard for me to understand why JK has not looked more closely at using a guy like kljestan (or torres or diskerud for that matter) in a 4-3-3 as an alternative

he has looked at both torres and diskerud as CAMs - but we both know that is not a smart idea.

just find it hard to believe that JK has not once in this entire cycle partnered a more "skilled" player (not jones, edu, williams, etc.) next to bradley with a DM sitting behind

people keep saying "weve have seen that". well, no, we really have not


You play a 4-3-3 if you want to give more space to your wingers, if they are great players who can drive an attack. Dempsey and Donovan are old and really have never been those types of players. Dempsey is a poacher who is great at finishing chances but not great at creating them. Donovan has always been better on the counter, where he can utilize his pace. For those reasons those two have always had a tendency to disappear during games. That is exactly what you don't want from your forwards in a 4-3-3.

The 4-2-3-1 is a better formation and now that we have Bedoya doing well in Ligue 1, we have another attacking mid good enough to start. We also have Arriola as a possibility if he continues to play well. Johannsson is in the picture as well. And Corona or Shea could end up getting PT as well.

Having said all that, I'm not super opposed to seeing a 4-3-3, but I support sticking with the 4-2-3-1 and getting that system ingrained in the players' heads. And most of the posters here agree it's the best formation for us. So nothing you can really fault Klinsmann for.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #74
Wednesday October 2, 2013 4:49pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from recycledhumans

I won't concede or argue that, I'll only say that Cam has better recovery speed and a lot more high level competition experience and I think that's worth a little more. Just an opinion...but I can say that if Cam isn't going to start at CB, I'd rather see him in that CDM role. Jones is good but he won't be with us next cycle (more than likely) so we should start playing the most probable starter for 2018.


cameron's athleticism allows him to shine in central areas v CONCACAF opposition. against higher caliber opposition his speed of thought, positioning, soccer IQ and general football savvy is not strong at all.

US has played 4 poor games this year
- @ honduras (CB)
- v belgium (RB)
- 1st half @ bosnia (CB)
- @ costa rica (CM)

geoff cameron was singled out as being particularly poor in each of those games. there is a reason cameron plays RB for stoke. it is the position that matches his capability at the highest level.

now that he is settled at RB cameron is possibly a decent option at that position. he is WAY over-rated both as a CB and a CM

people are absolutely fooling themselves if they think cameron can walk into USMNT in june after playing RB all season at stoke and be a good option in the center of the field. that is fantasy

Tiger
Post #75
Thursday October 3, 2013 8:58pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 94
At present, Cameron is best situated for USMNT where he plays for club at Stoke; RB. That's not to say he is incapable of ongoing future development at CB or CM for USMNT.

Hopefully he and Lichaj will begin to get the playing time with the Nats to establish themselves there. Hopefully Dolo, when healthy, also still has something to give for the Nats. Those three should be able to solidify RB for the team.

Chandler's maybe I will, maybe I won't attitude towards playing for the USMNT has to be called out. His on-field commitment and determination to give his all at all times, are by this juncture questionable at best.

To date, other than his disastrous showing against Honduras, Chandler's biggest/most significant impact upon the USMNT was colliding with and severely injuring Omar Gonzalez's knee on the first day of training at Nuremburg. An injury that effectively terminated Omar's opportunity in the Bundesliga.

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