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jtsccr12
Post #136
Friday November 1, 2013 9:29pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 80
So many of our CMs have major limitations. MB and Jones are the most well-rounded, and while they have deficits, they aren't as apparent as the rest of the pool.

Sasha- Needs the game to find him, and struggles with speed and quickness.
Mix- Cannot play 2-way, is more creative than SK and works back for tackles, but doesn't have a physical presence.
Beckerman- A solid CB shield, but doesn't offer anything going forward in the international game.
Cameron- Long defensive range, but gets overwhelmed in the middle.

If we are only playing with 2 in the middle, and everyone is healthy, it is MB and Jones in the middle. If Bradley gets hurt, Jones slides into a free role and either Beckerman or Cameron plays with him. If Jones is hurt, Cameron slides next to MB. If Jones and Bradley are hurt, SK should pair with Beckerman. If it is late in the game and we are down, Mix should come on before anyone not named MB or Jones.

SK might still be a little better than Mix is right now, but Mix has a much higher ceiling. With more experience and muscle mass, Mix and MB will be pairing after this WC cycle.

tylercocinas
Post #137
Friday November 1, 2013 9:41pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 704
Original post from hamsamwich

we are only having this discussion due to Holden getting re-injured, by the way. I am with the guy who would rather see Torres at CM than Klestjan, even though neither is truly up to it. they seem to lack confidence against the bigger teams when on the ball. same problem i have with Cameron. Personally, I would rate SK far down the depth chart, remember by next year M Edu will be healthy as well, so SK has light years to go. 6'1" 170 lbs is less strong on the ball than 5'8" 150 lbs by the way, rain. Also, quit saying Champions League in defense of this guy because Anderlecht keeps getting it handed to them in the CL. If SK was any good he would impact those matches more, rather than be a bystander in 0-5 losses. Face it, even Fabian Johnson would be a better CM than SK, but you seem to be the only one who doesn't realize he is NOT international (read: WC Brazil 2014) material.


Edu lol? He might be healthy by next summer but he still won't be playing if he stays at Stoke. I'm not a SK fan tbh but he's passed Mo plain and simple.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #138
Friday November 1, 2013 9:45pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,850
I will say this I would rather see Kljestan over Torres. Who has rightly played himself off of the USMNT with his craptastic performances. Hell he is playing himself out of the Tigres starting 11 as well.

EKneezy
Post #139
Friday November 1, 2013 10:44pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,734
My goodness this is getting out of hand. But I think these November friendlies will be good to see. Klinsy could go with the same MB/JJ pairing or he could mix it up and try something new.

I'd hope to see a MB/JJ for one game and a MB/SK pairing for another. But Klinsmann always throws everyone for a loop think will be interesting.

rainORshine
Post #140
Friday November 1, 2013 11:09pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from jtsccr12

SK might still be a little better than Mix is right now, but Mix has a much higher ceiling. With more experience and muscle mass, Mix and MB will be pairing after this WC cycle.


this is the type of sentiment that irks me the most. what makes people think that mix has a higher ceiling than SK?

ill refrain from stats, but by the time SK was 22 he had - without a doubt - established himself as both one of the best young players in MLS and in the USMNT set-up. this is why SK started in CM for a SUCCESSFUL olympic team (they made it and played fairly well - with SK scoring a couple goals)

since then he has continued to have a fantastic career. the years that followed saw him integrated into the full USMNT fold and expand this MLS resume. just as SK hit his prime - he was 25 when he moved to anderlecht and when JK came on board - he stopped getting calls/PT with USMNT, despite increasing success in belgium. instead JK thought the following were more worthy of PT:
- beckerman - 16 starts
- torres - 14 starts
- edu - 13 starts
- williams - 11 starts

now its diskerud with 6 starts while kljestan continues to get passed over

in comparison mix is not doing anything terribly impressive in norway. if i could bet a large sum of money that mix will not have half the career of kljestan i would take it in a second.

for all of you who say "I'll trust JK"... question. why? look at all the wasted starts on players who will not be contributing in brazil

i GUARANTEE you SK will get minutes in brazil. even JK is not stupid enough to not figure it out in time

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #141
Friday November 1, 2013 11:34pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,850
Man this debate just get's nowhere.

OK Rain rates Sk while the majority of US supporters and the USMNT coaching staff rate Diskerud higher. Except I would argue that Sk Versus Mix is hogwash. Sk is a poor mans Bradley, and Mix is an attacking CM.

If you want to compare and contrast Sk to anyone it should be against Bradley, and in that department SK is quite outclassed.

rainORshine
Post #142
Friday November 1, 2013 11:44pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from 2tone

Man this debate just get's nowhere.

OK Rain rates Sk while the majority of US supporters and the USMNT coaching staff rate Diskerud higher. Except I would argue that Sk Versus Mix is hogwash. Sk is a poor mans Bradley, and Mix is an attacking CM.

If you want to compare and contrast Sk to anyone it should be against Bradley, and in that department SK is quite outclassed.


right - USMNT staff has rated following over SK (and yes, i realize they all offer different things):
- beckerman
- torres
- williams
- edu
- diskerud

none have been terribly impressive so far

rain rates SK higher

if he ever plays we can stop debating and just see how he does

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #143
Friday November 1, 2013 11:59pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,850
Original post from rainORshine

right - USMNT staff has rated following over SK (and yes, i realize they all offer different things):
- beckerman
- torres
- williams
- edu
- diskerud

none have been terribly impressive so far

rain rates SK higher

if he ever plays we can stop debating and just see how he does


He has played and has been average. At least Diskerud has shown all of us flashes of his potential. While Sk continues to put in average performances.

rainORshine
Post #144
Saturday November 2, 2013 12:55am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from 2tone

He has played and has been average. At least Diskerud has shown all of us flashes of his potential. While Sk continues to put in average performances.


you lose ALL credibility by suggesting that sacha has not show "flashes"

just so you know

keep it up sacha-hater

Chrisou101
Post #145
Saturday November 2, 2013 6:44am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 554
Dude rain seriously... just stop it.

Mojofc
Post #146
Saturday November 2, 2013 1:48pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 670
Original post from rainORshine

1) you mentioned SK on the SK thread... so i mentioned SK on the SK thread. if you want to have a conversation about something else, maybe choose another thread... and dont mention SK

2) i am not trying to have a discussion about SK relative to all the CMs in the world... just to all CMs eligible to play for USMNT. sorry if that was not already clear to you

3) i think just about everyone would disagree that looking at production is 100% pointless when evaluating players who are given some responsibility to create and convert goal-scoring opportunities (which includes ALL midfielders)

the degree to which i defend sacha is only equal to the lack of respect he receives. for you or anyone to suggest that he will/should get minutes with USMNT only if all else fails is beyond insulting (and i am not sure how you figure that is not an opinion "against" sacha)

to insinuate that SKs overall "skillset" (understanding that each player brings a different set to the table) is not comparable to guys like bradley and jones simply demonstrates a complete lack of ability to subjectively evaluate soccer players

you mentioned games under JK to defend your point. careful brother - that is a STATISTIC. really, thats how you determine who is good? how many games JK has given people? so this is how you rate US CMs?...

(most CM starts under JK):
1) jones - 22 starts
2) bradley - 19 starts
3) beckerman - 16 starts

???

if you are 100% against use of statistics you cant come back and site minutes/games awarded by JK as some validation of your point - that is OBJECTIVE/STATISTICAL information

if you ARE going to use stats, i would suggest you use better stats


1) Probably one of your best comments ever. Let's be honest Rain, this very well may be the SK thread but you have turned this entire forum to the SK forum. If I post in the U17 World Cup, I'd probably get a response from you about how SK was better at 17 than the kids we're watching these days.

2) I'm assuming you're trolling here because the majority of people aren't this oblivious. Just in case you aren't... Michael Carrick has worthless stats this season, he had worthless stats last season yet last season he was instrumental in helping MUFC win the league.

Michael Bradley's goals/assists are commonly 'worse' than SK. Let me ask you this, even though that may be the case, who do you select first in central midfield for the USMNT? Oh, it's MB? Butttttt SK has better 'stats'?! My mind is blown. I'm so confused... Just making my point about your 'stat's to boost a certain player or to demean another is pointless without much further analysis.

3) See number 2 for the most part. I'll add.... for you to even bring up that I posted about JK giving certain minutes/games to other players thus proves that stats 'prove' that they have a serious place in determining a players worth again proves you're likely trolling.

Again, this is not a knock on your boy SK. Messaging back with 'I Have SK stickers on my bumper' is pointless, so please do not as we already know this is the case. We also know you have endless 'stats' proving with 100% certainty that SK is better than any other player in the world past or present. No more stats are necessary unless that pass the gag reflex test. Most of the stats you post are so bare, they prove nothing other than that you locate specific stats to try and make people without common sense cry for more SK like you do. You want a Rain clone, I get it. It must be lonely on this forums at times.

Have a good day Rain. Stay positive, SK will get his chance soon.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
bbakerxyz
Post #147
Saturday November 2, 2013 3:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
So, have you contacted Sacha yet to write his biography? I'm almost not kidding. I mean what the hell, you've spent enough time writing about him here and you can easily self-publish e-books today and sell them for $.99 or just give it away.

rainORshine
Post #148
Saturday November 2, 2013 3:59pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from Mojofc

1) Probably one of your best comments ever. Let's be honest Rain, this very well may be the SK thread but you have turned this entire forum to the SK forum. If I post in the U17 World Cup, I'd probably get a response from you about how SK was better at 17 than the kids we're watching these days.

2) I'm assuming you're trolling here because the majority of people aren't this oblivious. Just in case you aren't... Michael Carrick has worthless stats this season, he had worthless stats last season yet last season he was instrumental in helping MUFC win the league.

Michael Bradley's goals/assists are commonly 'worse' than SK. Let me ask you this, even though that may be the case, who do you select first in central midfield for the USMNT? Oh, it's MB? Butttttt SK has better 'stats'?! My mind is blown. I'm so confused... Just making my point about your 'stat's to boost a certain player or to demean another is pointless without much further analysis.

3) See number 2 for the most part. I'll add.... for you to even bring up that I posted about JK giving certain minutes/games to other players thus proves that stats 'prove' that they have a serious place in determining a players worth again proves you're likely trolling.

Again, this is not a knock on your boy SK. Messaging back with 'I Have SK stickers on my bumper' is pointless, so please do not as we already know this is the case. We also know you have endless 'stats' proving with 100% certainty that SK is better than any other player in the world past or present. No more stats are necessary unless that pass the gag reflex test. Most of the stats you post are so bare, they prove nothing other than that you locate specific stats to try and make people without common sense cry for more SK like you do. You want a Rain clone, I get it. It must be lonely on this forums at times.

Have a good day Rain. Stay positive, SK will get his chance soon.


1) nope. just threads about full USMNT CM options. if you used objective analysis - actually looking at other threads - you wouldnt make these kinds of judgment errors. too bad you are 100% averse to objective information

2) this is you argument that objective information is 100% pointless? wow

3) see #2

SK stickers on my bumper?

Mojo - you are not reading very carefully - I do not think SK is better than any player in world, past and present. I simply have an OPINION that sacha deserves far more credit that he (clearly) gets as one of the better CMs of his generation and as a legitimate option for important minutes in the current USMNT set-up.

honestly, it is almost incomprehensible to me how much objection there is to this idea. very hard to understand how many people seem to go out of their way to diminish the accomplishments of kljestan and who want to seem take shots at his skill and ability DESPITE the fact that:
a) he has only been given 2 starts for JK
b) he has actually looked quite good in recent USMNT appearances (esp. bos and jam)

and i am the "troll"? seriously? yea it is lonely on these boards sometimes. if you truly believe that SK deserves his opportunity (which i am not sure you do - most of your "support" seems pretty backhanded) then jump in and support him. when people go out of there way to knock sacha, jump in in and say "sacha deserves his chance - hes earned it"

or, you know, go with the flow - seems to be more your style

Mojofc
Post #149
Saturday November 2, 2013 4:35pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 670
Original post from rainORshine

1) nope. just threads about full USMNT CM options. if you used objective analysis - actually looking at other threads - you wouldnt make these kinds of judgment errors. too bad you are 100% averse to objective information

2) this is you argument that objective information is 100% pointless? wow

3) see #2

SK stickers on my bumper?

Mojo - you are not reading very carefully - I do not think SK is better than any player in world, past and present. I simply have an OPINION that sacha deserves far more credit that he (clearly) gets as one of the better CMs of his generation and as a legitimate option for important minutes in the current USMNT set-up.

honestly, it is almost incomprehensible to me how much objection there is to this idea. very hard to understand how many people seem to go out of their way to diminish the accomplishments of kljestan and who want to seem take shots at his skill and ability DESPITE the fact that:
a) he has only been given 2 starts for JK
b) he has actually looked quite good in recent USMNT appearances (esp. bos and jam)

and i am the "troll"? seriously? yea it is lonely on these boards sometimes. if you truly believe that SK deserves his opportunity (which i am not sure you do - most of your "support" seems pretty backhanded) then jump in and support him. when people go out of there way to knock sacha, jump in in and say "sacha deserves his chance - hes earned it"

or, you know, go with the flow - seems to be more your style


Rain, I'm not attacking Kljestan. I'm trying to understand why you feel goals/assists is a stat that should be used in discussing which CM is better than another. Sure, you could say SK is better at scoring goals for his specific league for his specific team. Other than that, his stats are meaningless.

I do honestly feel SK deserves a shot at this point. I've never been a fan of Bedoya, still don't feel as though Boyd is a great option, Corona hasn't progressed as some had hoped, Mixx should have made a move last summer in my opinion or he should be tearing his league up.

I don't think SK not being involved over the last few years has been a detriment to the USMNT. I think if all else fails, bringing in SK early next year given his club experience will be plenty of time for him to adapt into the team.

I do feel as though when SK was given more time under BB, SK main issue was not making proper decisions prior to receiving the ball. I think the international game was a little too fast for him, mainly mentally. I think SK plays immensely better when the play is slower (club football). At the international level, players have much less time to make a decision and I think this what why JK hopes to find a better option prior to 2O14. For this reason, I'm not panicking and acting like it's an embarrassment to the USMNT for not giving SK more minutes over the last few years.

To go back to #2..... i

Is Michael Carrick of MUFC garbage because of his poor goal/assist record over his tenure at United? The answer is no...

Does his poor goal/assist record indicate another player with more goals/assists over the course of a season is better than Carrick? The answer is no...

The only reason one would use goals/assists to make an argument to magically make one player better than another is because they don't explain well enough in words (not numbers) why they feel their bumper sticker player (yours being Kljestan) should be given more minutes. There is a time and place for stat arguments, but you use stats as though they are 100% proof that ____ player is better than another.

So in conclusion Rain, I don't have a problem with SK. If you read my post thoroughly you read that I do respect SK and do not feel many others being given time are proving themselves. If you read my post, I feel SK has some issues in his game that magnify at the international level which is why I don't feel SK's omission lately is causing harm to the USMNT. This post, nor my previous posts about SK are aimed at hurting SK's career as you feel some people attempt. I'm happy that you like the USMNT, I'm happy that you're a fan of SK. I just prefer reading posts that use logic. I also prefer posts that include some actual insight or thought behind them. Not just 'SK scored another goal today, he is a dominant player, he is better than everyone else, if he was in the team we would be so much better'.

What about SK do you like? Is it his decision making under pressure? Is it his vision? Do you think SK could play on the wing in a Zusi like role? What do you feel are his faults? If you argue for SK by answering the questions I just listed you would be furthering your plea for SK. If you continue saying Mixx sucks, Rowe is better than Mixx without really explaining anything, you just look like a hater.

Have a good day Rain. Again, I do think SK gets his chance before 2O14 unless he shows in training with the USMNT my fear for his exclusion.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
rainORshine
Post #150
Saturday November 2, 2013 5:18pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from Mojofc

Rain, I'm not attacking Kljestan. I'm trying to understand why you feel goals/assists is a stat that should be used in discussing which CM is better than another. Sure, you could say SK is better at scoring goals for his specific league for his specific team. Other than that, his stats are meaningless.

I do honestly feel SK deserves a shot at this point. I've never been a fan of Bedoya, still don't feel as though Boyd is a great option, Corona hasn't progressed as some had hoped, Mixx should have made a move last summer in my opinion or he should be tearing his league up.

I don't think SK not being involved over the last few years has been a detriment to the USMNT. I think if all else fails, bringing in SK early next year given his club experience will be plenty of time for him to adapt into the team.

I do feel as though when SK was given more time under BB, SK main issue was not making proper decisions prior to receiving the ball. I think the international game was a little too fast for him, mainly mentally. I think SK plays immensely better when the play is slower (club football). At the international level, players have much less time to make a decision and I think this what why JK hopes to find a better option prior to 2O14. For this reason, I'm not panicking and acting like it's an embarrassment to the USMNT for not giving SK more minutes over the last few years.

To go back to #2..... i

Is Michael Carrick of MUFC garbage because of his poor goal/assist record over his tenure at United? The answer is no...

Does his poor goal/assist record indicate another player with more goals/assists over the course of a season is better than Carrick? The answer is no...

The only reason one would use goals/assists to make an argument to magically make one player better than another is because they don't explain well enough in words (not numbers) why they feel their bumper sticker player (yours being Kljestan) should be given more minutes. There is a time and place for stat arguments, but you use stats as though they are 100% proof that ____ player is better than another.

So in conclusion Rain, I don't have a problem with SK. If you read my post thoroughly you read that I do respect SK and do not feel many others being given time are proving themselves. If you read my post, I feel SK has some issues in his game that magnify at the international level which is why I don't feel SK's omission lately is causing harm to the USMNT. This post, nor my previous posts about SK are aimed at hurting SK's career as you feel some people attempt. I'm happy that you like the USMNT, I'm happy that you're a fan of SK. I just prefer reading posts that use logic. I also prefer posts that include some actual insight or thought behind them. Not just 'SK scored another goal today, he is a dominant player, he is better than everyone else, if he was in the team we would be so much better'.

What about SK do you like? Is it his decision making under pressure? Is it his vision? Do you think SK could play on the wing in a Zusi like role? What do you feel are his faults? If you argue for SK by answering the questions I just listed you would be furthering your plea for SK. If you continue saying Mixx sucks, Rowe is better than Mixx without really explaining anything, you just look like a hater.

Have a good day Rain. Again, I do think SK gets his chance before 2O14 unless he shows in training with the USMNT my fear for his exclusion.


Mojo - i appreciate your desire for a true conversation. others seem programed to have knee-jerk anti-kljestan responses... not worth trying to have an actual conversation with those who show no interest in that.

when i have a bit more time ill be happy to give my thoughts on those questions...

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