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MSantoine
Post #16
Friday May 3, 2013 5:23pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
Original post from rainORshine

purely in terms of soccer quality, this is an extremely weak argument. just because porto and benfica are 2 of the better teams and dominate the league does not neccessarily mean the rest of the league is a joke. that is just not a logical argument.

there are currently 10 portugese teams ranked in top 135 of UEFA based on results in eurpoean play over last few years, which is why they are ranked 6th in europe.

saying the 6th best league in europe is a joke and that the overall quality in MLS is better is absolutely ridiculous

argentina does better than mexico in copa lib with many different teams alternately doing well. we know mexico is a couple steps above MLS in quality. obviously, then, the quality in argentina is WELL ahead of MLS

please try not to let bias blur objectivity


Speaking of not making a logical arguement. Firstly UEFA Club coefficients are useless. They keep 5 year old data. Is how a club performed in 2008 relevent today? Secondly top 135 of rankings? Really? Im sure thats an arbitrary number. If you go with top 100 they have 4 teams. To prove my point here are some other teams in the top 100: Portsmouth, Stoke, Rangers, Hertha Berlin, Aston Villa. Many many more. You dont think Galaxy, Seattle, KC, and others wouldnt beat those teams more than they lost?

Also Argentina might do better than Mexico in Copa Lib but maybe thats due to the facts that
A) Argentina sends more teams (5 to 3)
and
B) Mexican teams cant qualify for World Cup from it so they dont always send their best players.

Back on point- Netherlands has 7 of 18 teams play in stadiums that hold 15k or less.
Portugal has 8 of 16. MLS has 1 of 19 teams (San Jose). MLS has the 8th highest average attendance of any domestic soccer league (over 18k per game). Only 60 people per game behind France and slightly behind Netherlands. Portugal gets just over 10k per game and less attendance than countries like Indonesia, Scotland, and Algeria. Theres a reason why a lot of Portuguese clubs are getting into monetary trouble. Again no one is denying that there are better players in the portuguese league. But as a whole Id take the MLS over it as it is a league on the up and portugal is fading

stone88
Post #17
Friday May 3, 2013 6:07pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 840
Here I'll give it a go as well, even though trying to rank the MLS against leagues its never really played competively against is conjecture by fans.

Bundes
La Liga
EPL
Serie A
Brazil league
ligue 1
Russia
Portugal
Eredivise
Turkey
Greece
Argentine league
Ukraine
LigaMX
Belgian league
Swiss league
MLS/Japanese league
Denmark
Croatia
Sweden
Scotland
Norway
Australia

rainORshine
Post #18
Friday May 3, 2013 6:26pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
portugal has 4 of the best teams in the world
- porto
- benfica
- sporting
- braga

sporting having a down year (7th in table), but they were europa semi-finalists last year. with braga ranked 29 in europe, only spain and england have 4 teams ranked higher.
the rest (despite stadium capacity) are essentially MLS quality teams (at least). this season ferreira is in 3rd place (134 in UEFA), proving other teams do broach the top 4

the overall gap in talent is massive.

i am not trying to argue infrastructure, attendance, etc.

MSantoine
Post #19
Friday May 3, 2013 6:48pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
@rain- I think there are two different things that are being argued which are definitely seperate issues.
1) Quality of play
2) Quality of league

Im not arguing the quality of play for MLS over some of those leagues. However quality of league is kind of like a future prediction model. Think of some of the european teams that have gone into administration, or dont always pay their players wages. Also with the new financial fair play rules shortly coming into effect you'll truly see which leagues are run correctly and which ones are not. I think the list WSM tried to make was one that took everything into consideration, not just talent level of its players.

If a US player was playing at Benfica, or Porto, or Braga then yes he would probably be a starter for us (or at least deserve to be one). And obviously being a starter at Galaxy doesnt equate to that. However I think if you asked MLS owners to swap ownership stakes with any team in Portugal besides Porto and Benfica, maybe Sporting and Braga, they'd probably say no as those other teams are losing money and have poor attendence, poor infrasturcte, poor fan bases, or some combination of all those factors.

rainORshine
Post #20
Friday May 3, 2013 6:59pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from MSantoine

@rain- I think there are two different things that are being argued which are definitely seperate issues.
1) Quality of play
2) Quality of league

Im not arguing the quality of play for MLS over some of those leagues. However quality of league is kind of like a future prediction model. Think of some of the european teams that have gone into administration, or dont always pay their players wages. Also with the new financial fair play rules shortly coming into effect you'll truly see which leagues are run correctly and which ones are not. I think the list WSM tried to make was one that took everything into consideration, not just talent level of its players.

If a US player was playing at Benfica, or Porto, or Braga then yes he would probably be a starter for us (or at least deserve to be one). And obviously being a starter at Galaxy doesnt equate to that. However I think if you asked MLS owners to swap ownership stakes with any team in Portugal besides Porto and Benfica, maybe Sporting and Braga, they'd probably say no as those other teams are losing money and have poor attendence, poor infrasturcte, poor fan bases, or some combination of all those factors.


yea - need a different thread maybe. i agree that MLS as a league ranks better than if just looking purely at quality of play.

but even though it seems to be running well as a league i think the quality of play is going to continue improving pretty slowly

just hard to draw best players from other continents. all MLS can do is run a good, healthy league and make incremental gains RE player acquisition

i agree it is doing a good job of that

dolcem
Post #21
Friday May 3, 2013 7:28pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Yeah we all know that in terms of infrastructure, attendance, etc. MLS is doing great. The quality though is not there yet but that's understandable since the sport is so new here.

I was responding to adm's argument about the league rankings, that is all.

And even comparing Ligue 1 to MLS is ridiculous. There is so much quality in Ligue 1 from top to bottom. You have new teams competing for the title and Champions League places every season. And so many good players come out of there.

And stone, please explain to me how the Russian, Turkish, and Greek leagues are better than the Argentine leagues. When Argentine players move to those leagues it's a step down. Here are how the leagues should be ranked:

La Liga, EPL, Bundesliga all in the top 3
4. Serie A
5. Ligue 1
6. Brazilian Serie A
7. Liga Argentina
8. Primeira Liga (Portugal)
9. Eredevisie
10. Russia (probably, it's a big drop off from there, maybe Ukraine or Turkey or Liga MX)
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
admsghs27
Post #22
Friday May 3, 2013 8:34pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,154
I dont think epl is a top 3... Top 5 yea... Bundesliga has been 1 the past couple years easily... I think mls deserves to be in top 10 along with liga mx.. In the next 10 years I see mls in top 5

dolcem
Post #23
Saturday May 4, 2013 8:44am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from admsghs27

I dont think epl is a top 3... Top 5 yea... Bundesliga has been 1 the past couple years easily... I think mls deserves to be in top 10 along with liga mx.. In the next 10 years I see mls in top 5


Good to see that you don't overrate the EPL (most Americans do) but saying it's not top 3 is a stretch. The teams and players in it are clearly better than Serie A's (there's more money in England). They have 5 Champions League caliber teams. Look at how good Arsenal is and they probably won't finish top 4. And the Bundesliga does not have enough good teams to be considered number one. It's getting better but this year is an anomaly. Usually Munich is the only team there anywhere near competing seriously in the Champions League.

And again, there is absolutely no way you could argue that Liga MX and MLS are better than the Argentine league. As far as Holland and Portugal go, look at the quality of the player that come out of that league. And while these leagues are unbalanced, teams like Benfica, Porto, Braga, Sporting, Ajax, etc. are just on a different level from MLS teams. The lower teams in these leagues, while not good, are better than we give them credit for since they actually can get results against these teams.

And MLS in the top 5 in 10 years? I love your support and enthusiasm but that is absolutely positively ridiculous. There is absolutely no way that in 10 years it has the quality that Ligue 1 or Serie A has. Look at the players that have played in and come out of those leagues (players like Zidane). It will take us generations before we can develop the quality to compete with the players and (equally as important) managers from those leagues. There are players currently in Ligue 1 who are better than any American player in history. What makes you expect we'll be producing guys like that on a regular basis in 10 years? Our national team minus the Germans is worse than it was 10 years ago. I'd be thrilled if we reached their level in my lifetime. At this point we are just not nearly good enough at player development to hope for the MLS turning into an elite league any time soon.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
admsghs27
Post #24
Saturday May 4, 2013 9:46am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,154
@dolcem dont know if u read my previous post but I put Brazil league 4,.argentina 9... Mls like 8 or 10..

dolcem
Post #25
Saturday May 4, 2013 3:39pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from admsghs27

@dolcem dont know if u read my previous post but I put Brazil league 4,.argentina 9... Mls like 8 or 10..


I know, the thing is though that the MLS and Liga MX are FAR below the Liga Argentina in terms of quality (and passion for that matter). I've watched all of those leagues a lot and while the Argentine league is in decline (and the other two are improving a lot) it will still be a long time before they're even.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #26
Saturday May 4, 2013 4:20pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from dolcem

I know, the thing is though that the MLS and Liga MX are FAR below the Liga Argentina in terms of quality (and passion for that matter). I've watched all of those leagues a lot and while the Argentine league is in decline (and the other two are improving a lot) it will still be a long time before they're even.


seems like you are over-rating argentina a bit. brazil absolutely dominates south america, but your ranking reflect that you think there are no leagues between brazil and argentina. that does not make sense. liga MX fairs pretty well relative to argentina in copa lib. is argentina better? sure. FAR better? no. is argentina FAR better than MLS? sure. you are insinuating that MLS and liga MX are close, which does not line up with fact that liga MX dominates MLS

argentina is a little better than liga MX and a lot better than MLS

Bshredder
Post #27
Saturday May 4, 2013 5:52pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Liga Mx is better than MLS but not by a tremendous amount. The CCL proves that the best Liga MX teams are better than the best MLS teams. I also don't think the best MLS teams would be out of place in Liga Mx overall.

In other words, Liga Mx is better but there is a huge overlap, as well

rainORshine
Post #28
Saturday May 4, 2013 8:50pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from Bshredder

Liga Mx is better than MLS but not by a tremendous amount. The CCL proves that the best Liga MX teams are better than the best MLS teams. I also don't think the best MLS teams would be out of place in Liga Mx overall.

In other words, Liga Mx is better but there is a huge overlap, as well


it is a very clear step up

3 MLS teams in CCL QFs last 2 years signifies progress. 2 teams advancing to SF this season was a first, which is progress.

sure there is overlap, but MLS still clearly a cut below.

Liga MX is a really good league, so there is no shame in that

dolcem
Post #29
Saturday May 4, 2013 11:09pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
A Liga MX team hasn't even won a Libertadores yet. There is a HUGE gap between the two leagues. It's definitely getting smaller but it's still there. When an Argentine team loses to a Mexican team it's viewed as an embarrassment. When a Mexican team gets a decent player from the Argentine league it's a big coup. And of course look at the players coming out of these two leagues. There's no comparison.

And it does make sense that there aren't leagues between the two. Certainly the Brazilian league is better but there's no way the Dutch or Portuguese leagues are better than the Argentine league. The top teams are for sure. But the rest of the league is poorer in quality. These are small countries that can't produce a really deep player pool the way Argentina and (especially) Brazil can.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
MSantoine
Post #30
Sunday May 5, 2013 5:36pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
Original post from dolcem

A Liga MX team hasn't even won a Libertadores yet. There is a HUGE gap between the two leagues. It's definitely getting smaller but it's still there. When an Argentine team loses to a Mexican team it's viewed as an embarrassment. When a Mexican team gets a decent player from the Argentine league it's a big coup. And of course look at the players coming out of these two leagues. There's no comparison.

And it does make sense that there aren't leagues between the two. Certainly the Brazilian league is better but there's no way the Dutch or Portuguese leagues are better than the Argentine league. The top teams are for sure. But the rest of the league is poorer in quality. These are small countries that can't produce a really deep player pool the way Argentina and (especially) Brazil can.


Again one of the reasons a Mexican team hasnt won copa is that there is no benefit. The semis and finals are at the same time as the playoffs. They arent going to tire out their stars in what is essentially an exibition at that stage for them

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