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Nick4235
Boston, Mass
Post #31
Wednesday May 1, 2013 10:11pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 139
Original post from admsghs27

Only if we had the players jk could implement the bayern/Dortmund tactics.. Thats some beutiful effective soccer.. Im sure he wants to do it but we just dont have the olayers/talent.


This isn't saying much as I think almost every coach in the world wishes their team could play like Bayern or Dortmund...

dolcem
Post #32
Thursday May 2, 2013 6:43am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,026
Original post from Nick4235

This isn't saying much as I think almost every coach in the world wishes their team could play like Bayern or Dortmund...


Except that most coaches don't try to get their teams to play like that, even when they have good players. There are a lot of different styles out there.

More importantly, Klinsmann actually has experience getting teams to play like that. The German national team did under his tenure and they were a mess before that (Euro '04, WC '02 team went to the finally but had an absolute joke of a route to get there, Euro '00). Munich did at times when it didn't have too many injuries (I remember them beating Lisbon like 9-0 or something like that on aggregate). The way Bayern and Dortmund play is different than the traditional German style of play. It's more positive and aggressive and it appears to be very good at developing youth players. The Germans did this by getting all of their youth teams (at the national and even the club level) to play this same style. The results are coming to fruition right now as the Bundesliga is proving how great it is and most of Klinsmann's picks for the German NT (Low included) are still its core.

Klinsmann's plan has been to get us to replicate what the Germans did (he wanted to do this so bad we were his first choice instead of Bayern Munich). The German style of play would fit us and be much better for us than playing like the English or Italians (which is what we've tried to do in the past). In the first year of Klinsmann's time in charge, we actually had a few decent attacking options (Donovan, and in-form Shea) and at times it looked like we were on our way to playing like this. We had a few games where we actually looked like a European team, with some good passing and attacking play. We were missing something in the final third though (hence Klinsmann's "nastier" comments and him encouraging our players to take more shots). IMO this is because our attacking players lack quality and the American style of play produces some good players but when you put them together, this lack of quality usually translates into something missing in the final third. I already discussed the reasons for this in the thread on youth development a month or so ago.

Since we lost Donovan and Shea we've had absolutely no attacking options and it seems that, for the time being, Klinsmann has given up on the project in the short-term. He doesn't see us being able to play positive soccer with our current player pool and will wait until the crop of U-20 players (who seem like they could be up for the challenge) make their way to the senior team. At least by that point they will have had a lot of experience playing positive soccer in a 4-5-1/4-3-3 at the national level. I'm disappointed but I don't really blame him. Guus Hiddink or Pep Guardiola couldn't get our group to play attacking soccer and I think anyone who thinks they could is delusional. Anyone that faults Klinsmann for not realizing his vision is forgetting the fact that 1)at least he has a vision and 2)this is a LONG-TERM vision. He would have liked to do it in the short-term too but he couldn't have foreseen Donovan's sabbattical, Shea's loss of form, and the utter lack of attacking options that have materialized since then.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #33
Monday May 6, 2013 5:45pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,768
there is just no excuse for essentially not using 2 of the clearly more talented players at your disposal in positions they actually play.

kljestan is on verge of another belgium title with anderlecht
torres just helped tigres finish first in clausura

instead of trying to use these guys in natural positions (in 4-4-2 diamond, 3-5-2 or 4-3-3) over last 7 WCQ he has decided to:

- start kyle beckerman (1 time)

use non wide mids at wide mid:
- torres (1x)
- EJ (3x)
- gomez (2x)

game at honduras he played NO ONE opposite EJ on the right

these are just LATEST in long line of awful decisions

those who are not able to conceive of ANY criticism for these tactics clearly lacks any ability to render impartial feedback

with LD back he can conceivably run his 4-4-2. but if either LD or zusi are not on field it is just a terrible idea.

he AT LEAST needs one alternate tactical plan and after almost 2 years and 25 games he seems pretty clueless to find one. his big idea before his current set-up was adding a DM to bradley / jones. just terrible decisions from day 1

SoccerGod
Clouds, Heaven
Post #34
Monday May 6, 2013 6:03pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 84
Original post from rainORshine

there is just no excuse for essentially not using 2 of the clearly more talented players at your disposal in positions they actually play.

kljestan is on verge of another belgium title with anderlecht
torres just helped tigres finish first in clausura

instead of trying to use these guys in natural positions (in 4-4-2 diamond, 3-5-2 or 4-3-3) over last 7 WCQ he has decided to:

- start kyle beckerman (1 time)

use non wide mids at wide mid:
- torres (1x)
- EJ (3x)
- gomez (2x)

game at honduras he played NO ONE opposite EJ on the right

these are just LATEST in long line of awful decisions

those who are not able to conceive of ANY criticism for these tactics clearly lacks any ability to render impartial feedback

with LD back he can conceivably run his 4-4-2. but if either LD or zusi are not on field it is just a terrible idea.

he AT LEAST needs one alternate tactical plan and after almost 2 years and 25 games he seems pretty clueless to find one. his big idea before his current set-up was adding a DM to bradley / jones. just terrible decisions from day 1


Yea and it really shows to with the terrible record the US had last year and the 0 points from qualifying so far...wait no I was mistaken. Id like to see both torres and Kljestan play but it doesn't mean other people don't understand the game as well as me. The numbers don't lie. Its funny seeing all your posts though about how terrible it all is. It's like watching a person jump ship before its even left port.
For I am creator of all things soccer. Seek repentance or just beat Mexico, either will get you in up here.
rainORshine
Post #35
Monday May 6, 2013 6:23pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,768
Original post from SoccerGod

Yea and it really shows to with the terrible record the US had last year and the 0 points from qualifying so far...wait no I was mistaken. Id like to see both torres and Kljestan play but it doesn't mean other people don't understand the game as well as me. The numbers don't lie. Its funny seeing all your posts though about how terrible it all is. It's like watching a person jump ship before its even left port.


25 games and we have not left the port yet? my guess is that 25 games is longer than the average NT coaching tenure

you are correct - the numbers dont lie. winning % under .500 (12 / 25) is not good for USMNT. are you trying to say IS good?

qualifying for WC is essentially a given for US in CONCACAF. 4 points form 1st 3 games is some sort of accomplishment?

you nailed it - for those who are happy with a winning % CLOSE to .500 and finishing top 3 in hex, you clearly have your man

some of us are ready to move on to better and brighter things

but dont let me harsh the JK buzz youve got going

Lykou11601
Post #36
Monday May 6, 2013 11:08pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
He was referring to the win percentage in 2012. We have been short of options as of late. You've said that yourself. I really do think that your opinions have more to do with a blind hatred for Klinsmann than the actual results. I'm skeptic at the moment about Klinsmann myself but please... Wait until there is an actual reason to rant. We're 3 games in and in a good position to qualify in arguably the hardest CONCACAF group ever. Players are coming off injury or sabbaticals. Things are looking up. Have some faith mate.

rainORshine
Post #37
Monday May 6, 2013 11:54pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,768
Original post from Lykou11601

He was referring to the win percentage in 2012. We have been short of options as of late. You've said that yourself. I really do think that your opinions have more to do with a blind hatred for Klinsmann than the actual results. I'm skeptic at the moment about Klinsmann myself but please... Wait until there is an actual reason to rant. We're 3 games in and in a good position to qualify in arguably the hardest CONCACAF group ever. Players are coming off injury or sabbaticals. Things are looking up. Have some faith mate.


i am talking about overall record. if we are going to take a modified time period it really has to include up through current. last 14 record is 6-(5)-3 or .429 win % (rounded up). not good. i was very optimistic when JK was hired. 25 games is enough to start making some conclusive observations

i am not hating. i am very frustrated that there are 2 guys playing at a very high level not really getting any opportunities in their natural positions. you dont have to go back any further than BB era to find a time when there would be NO WAY guys pulling strings at anderlecht and tigres are barely given the time of day.

BB was giving these guys good PT BEFORE they were in their prime and contributing at such a high level.

i honestly dont see why more people are not frustrated.

all i am saying is that if 25 games is not enough, then we need to be able to have an honest discussion, without all the BS excuses, after 29 (after these 5 games)

all im hoping is people watch these games really closely and after lets talk about if its good enough - again, just hoping we can agree that 29 games and 6 hex games is a very good sample size,,,

bbakerxyz
Post #38
Tuesday May 7, 2013 4:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
Settle down Francis. The only games (or at least results) that matter are the WC qualifiers so what's with all the nonsense about 25 games? Anyway, your solution to us not having any true outside mids is. . . to give Klestjan & Torres more PT? Look, we're all hoping LD and Shea come back and come back at full strength.

rainORshine
Post #39
Tuesday May 7, 2013 5:02pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,768
Original post from bbakerxyz

Settle down Francis. The only games (or at least results) that matter are the WC qualifiers so what's with all the nonsense about 25 games? Anyway, your solution to us not having any true outside mids is. . . to give Klestjan & Torres more PT? Look, we're all hoping LD and Shea come back and come back at full strength.


not sure how you have missed it francis, but no, my solution is to use DIFFERENT TACTICAL FORMATIONS that best utilizes the talent you do have

if we are ONLY going by HEX games (why is that, again?) then 3 shots on goal in 3 games is DEFINITELY not good enough and things need to far better in upcoming 3 games. agreed?

Lykou11601
Post #40
Tuesday May 7, 2013 7:17pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 122
We all know things need to get better in the next three games. All we are saying is that there is no reason to jump ship just yet. The fact that we were in poor conditions and missing key players had a lot to do with those three games. Plus, your DIFFERENT TACTICAL FORMATIONS won't work out for these qualifiers since Chandler just got injured. Dolo can do RWB I guess, but with his age... I'm not so comfortable with that idea.

dolcem
Post #41
Tuesday May 7, 2013 10:15pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,026
Rain you keep on bringing up the same arguments over and over again:

1. Inexcusable for Klejstan not to start:
You're the only one here that thinks that. This doesn't mean that you're wrong, but it does mean that you shouldn't call it an 'inexcusable mistake.' Playing for Anderlecht and Tigres does NOT guarantee you a spot in the starting XI, and it never did under Coach Bob either. In the case of Torres and Klejstan, which seems to be your main point, your argument is just completely wrong. He was playing really well at the time (was going to go to Valencia) Coach Bob didn't really want to have anything to do with him despite good performances until he threw him into the fire right before the World Cup in a system that didn't fit him. Let's not forget that when we played Costa Rica away in the Hex and Coach Bob finally gave him the start he was the best player on the field (even John Harkes agreed). He was made the scapegoat for the goal I guess (which was Mastroeni's fault) and subbed off at halftime. He didn't get called up for a year after that. Klejstan did not play much under Coach Bob either because every time he did play he was never any good (except for one game against the Swedish C team).

2. You don't like the line-up:
Anyone can play armchair coach and question every decision a national team coach makes. There are so many different possibilities. The coach isn't going to do everything you want him to, and even if he did, everyone else would be bitching and moaning. Your complain about the wide players isn't valid because we don't have anyone else. We're desperately short on attacking options. For this reason, Klinsmann switched to a 4-4-2 without wingers (basically your 3-5-2 but with a DM instead of a 3rd CB). It didn't work. We don't really have the attacking players to attack well with that formation. And we played horribly. While it is hypothetically possible that this would be our best formation (and this is not a claim backed by evidence), only a few people want to see it (I wouldn't mind seeing it again). Yet again this should be a clue that maybe your opinion is not so important that if it isn't followed the coach should be fired. More importantly, we have a year before the World Cup. There's lots of experimenting left to do and it's too early to judge him before the World Cup. What if he decides to give Klejstan a lot of chances in the next year? Calm down and let him do his thing and afterwards judge him by his body of work.

3. The results haven't been good enough:
Probably your weakest argument. Our schedule has been much tougher than usual (CONCACAF is as good as it ever has been, we had lots of friendlies) and our player pool is not good right now. There's no lineup anyone can pick that doesn't have plenty of problems with it. We're in between generations and this is the worst we've been in a long time. Despite this Klinsmann got us a record winning-percentage in 2012. But this is an irrelevant argument because Klinsmann is experimenting and getting used to CONCACAF. Results right now do not matter all that much as long as we qualify for the World Cup. No one should care all that much if we drop some points here and there while trying to figure out the best possible team. Klinsmann's German NT did poorly in the run up to the World Cup when he was doing a lot of experimenting. They ended up having a great World Cup. And of course many teams have done poorly in qualifying but excelled at the World Cup and vice versa. Unless the results are really bad and we're in danger of not qualifying, it doesn't make any sense to call for the coach's head based on this reason.

But it's not the fact that we disagree with your opinions that's what bothers us, it's the fact that you keep posting them over and over again. You need to recognize the fact that they are your opinions and not facts. I'm annoyed the Klinsmann never really starts Torres as a CM but I don't think my opinion is so important that I repeat myself over and over again all over the forum.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #42
Friday May 17, 2013 3:24pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,768
so, no surprise, roster indicates total commitment to same tactics. i actually think even JK is clever enough to figure out that gomez is not a good option in wide position - roster reveals many other options shea, beasley and davis - all candidates to play in left wing spot, along with johnson and castillo (LB, but ALSO possible LM/LWs) returning to fold- i actually would not be surprised to see shea start multiple games - it is pretty clear that he is the guy JK desperately wants to inherit that position

i dont agree with tactics, but i would agree far less strongly if JK (reasonably) tried to develop a secondary strategy involving a 3 man CM combo - with kljestan or possibly corona (NOT edu or williams) joining bradley/jones, and attacking with more of a front 3

(we'll see how dolcem figures out a way to argue with this)

SuperChivo
Post #43
Saturday May 18, 2013 3:06am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 7
Original post from dolcem

3. The results haven't been good enough:
Probably your weakest argument. Our schedule has been much tougher than usual (CONCACAF is as good as it ever has been, we had lots of friendlies) and our player pool is not good right now. There's no lineup anyone can pick that doesn't have plenty of problems with it. We're in between generations and this is the worst we've been in a long time. Despite this Klinsmann got us a record winning-percentage in 2012. But this is an irrelevant argument because Klinsmann is experimenting and getting used to CONCACAF. Results right now do not matter all that much as long as we qualify for the World Cup. No one should care all that much if we drop some points here and there while trying to figure out the best possible team. Klinsmann's German NT did poorly in the run up to the World Cup when he was doing a lot of experimenting. They ended up having a great World Cup. And of course many teams have done poorly in qualifying but excelled at the World Cup and vice versa. Unless the results are really bad and we're in danger of not qualifying, it doesn't make any sense to call for the coach's head based on this reason.

If you can't judge a coach based on his record, then what? We have been poorer this cycle than the past; few would deny this. In my own personal opinion it isn't all Klinsmann's fault however he is getting paid 5 times what his predecessor received (actually, is still receiving) for at best even results. By the way, criticizing a coach is part of being a sport's fan. Klinsmann's made plenty of mistakes, even the very best do, and he should be accountable for his failures and credited for his successes.

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