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blaise213
San Francisco CA
Post #76
Thursday April 18, 2013 5:12am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,320
Soccer is all they have...

US soccer screwed up (weather aside) for not playing Costa Rica at the Denver broncos stadium. Tickets sold out in an hour for dicks sporting park.

Also somebody should be putting the MLB in check for having a capped 40k game in Seattle vs Panama. Easily a sell-out

MSantoine
Post #77
Thursday April 18, 2013 12:01pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,142
Original post from acahmed14

one of the first thing jk did was revamp the whole ussf youth coaching system. What i believe use to be lilke a 2 hour class he changed to a 3 day weekend clinic. for your E license which qualifies you for i believe u-8 to u-10. He also made a standard style your suppose to be teaching these kids the 4-3-3, which is why you see all of our youth national teams playing it. thats how he is laying the foundation for future us teams and changing the culture.


Are you sure it was JK and not Gulati? I believe he has some say in hiring/firing coaches (Ramos wasn't a JK buddy, he was a Gulati guy). Porter was a Gulati favorite. JK may give a final blessing but its the USSF that hires all head coaches. And if your giving "credit" to JK for the change to the youth ranks, you realise we've been the most unsuccessful ever under his watch (failed 3 of 4 recent youth tourneys, no U20s with the senior team. Not sure I would hold my hat on that point.

dolcem
Post #78
Thursday April 18, 2013 5:13pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,036
Original post from MSantoine

Again I ask, what had jk done to change the soccer culture in USA? Not once has anyone been able to give shy evidence of him doing it. There's lots of press releases of him saying it but none of actually doing it.


He has done what he could, and that's more than someone like Kreis could have accomplished.

He has laid out a vision for long-term success and it is based on the one he implemented with the German National Team (which was a mess until he took over). The overall vision is really one of the most important things he can do because he's a figurehead.

Aside from trying to convince us to play a certain way (and adopt a consistent style, whatever it may be), something which is arguably more important than anything else, he can do so with his teams so that people can follow it. The youth teams are the most important since style matters much more than results for them. For the national team, style is important but in the short-term it might have to be sacrificed quite a bit for results (we will not enjoy the fruits of this project for a few years, when the young players are instructed in a consistent style and make their way to the national team).

Does this give him a bit of a free pass? Probably. But he's not doing this just to keep his job, he obviously believes in the project (why else would he choose the US over Bayern Munich and name one other coach who would do that). And this is exactly what we need to be doing. It's taking a risk but a risk that we really should take (plenty of years of playing it safe with MLS coaches like Arena).

At first we actually did look like we were heading there. In his first year as coach, when we had options like Shea and Donovan, we at times played soccer that was much more positive, advanced, and European than we ever played under Bruce or Coach Bob. Recently we have not had the players to play this style at the senior level. Don't name off guys like Shea, Adu, Gyau, Gatt, because they aren't ready to play for the senior NT yet and they'll get their chance come summer (when results don't matter quite as much). I totally understand Klinsmann's decision to wait a bit on those guys, to bring them into the team slowly. He has already given Corona a cap and called him up for important games, he'll be getting PT soon, in matches less important that the past two.

Would I like to see this process go a bit faster? Maybe. But there's no rush yet because we still have more than a year for the World Cup, and that's what really matters.

I'm not going to say "fire the head coach" because I disagree with a few minor player selection choices when he is by far the best candidate available to us.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
SuperChivo
Post #79
Thursday April 18, 2013 5:41pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 7
Original post from dolcem

... Probably. But he's not doing this just to keep his job, he obviously believes in the project (why else would he choose the US over Bayern Munich and name one other coach who would do that). And this is exactly what we need to be doing. It's taking a risk but a risk that we really should take (plenty of years of playing it safe with MLS coaches like Arena).

I thought that he was fired from Bayern with several games left in the season and that, subsequently, his former boss has mocked him repeatedly in the press and that his former captain called him a failure and tactically unaware? I was unaware that he was given another opportunity there but that he turned it down for the US. Do you have a source for this?

dolcem
Post #80
Thursday April 18, 2013 6:27pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,036
Original post from SuperChivo

I thought that he was fired from Bayern with several games left in the season and that, subsequently, his former boss has mocked him repeatedly in the press and that his former captain called him a failure and tactically unaware? I was unaware that he was given another opportunity there but that he turned it down for the US. Do you have a source for this?


In 2006 he wanted to coach the US and Gulati said no. This was over the issue of the youth teams: Klinsmann wanted control of them and Gulati said no. So then he went to Bayern Munich.

He was two points out of first place and lost to arguably the best team of all time in the Champions League quarterfinals. And his team had plenty of injuries (the fullback situation was an absolute mess) and he didn't have control over transfers.

Beckenbauer and Hoeness take shots at everyone, including recently Louis Van Gaal, a world class coach. Lahm also criticized the manager preceding criticism and it seems the controversy of his book definitely sold a lot of copies.

After he was fired at Bayern he got a job offer from Tottenham, which he turned down (he wants to stay in the US). Please name me one manager getting job offers at places like that. Name me one American player or coach who has anywhere near the resume of Klinsmann.

I would take a mediocre player from Bayern over a good MLS player. It isn't all that different with coaches.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
Know Nothing
Post #81
Thursday April 18, 2013 7:26pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 361
Original post from dolcem

After he was fired at Bayern he got a job offer from Tottenham, which he turned down (he wants to stay in the US). Please name me one manager getting job offers at places like that. Name me one American player or coach who has anywhere near the resume of Klinsmann.



LOL Spurs, the team that has hired such winners as Christian Gross. They make it a habit of hiring former players as managers to appease the fans, such as Ardiles and Glenn Hoddle, so approaching JK was natural since he was revered there.

and aside from the topic, Bayern went out to the best side of all time...LOL!!!!! Barca were lucky Ovrebo decided to turn a blind eye and not award any of 4 legitimate penalty claims against Chelsea. A great side would have found a way to win at least one leg of a tie, but barca squeaked through on goal difference!

acahmed14
Post #82
Thursday April 18, 2013 10:53pm

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 33
Original post from MSantoine

Are you sure it was JK and not Gulati? I believe he has some say in hiring/firing coaches (Ramos wasn't a JK buddy, he was a Gulati guy). Porter was a Gulati favorite. JK may give a final blessing but its the USSF that hires all head coaches. And if your giving "credit" to JK for the change to the youth ranks, you realise we've been the most unsuccessful ever under his watch (failed 3 of 4 recent youth tourneys, no U20s with the senior team. Not sure I would hold my hat on that point.


Yes im sure it was jk, any licensed coach id assume would know this. also im not talking about hiring and firing the ynt coaches, im talking about him wanting every coach in every town more knowledgeable in the fundamentals of soccer creating a more technical player pool giving us a better end product years from now.

MSantoine
Post #83
Friday April 19, 2013 12:54am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,142
Original post from acahmed14

Yes im sure it was jk, any licensed coach id assume would know this. also im not talking about hiring and firing the ynt coaches, im talking about him wanting every coach in every town more knowledgeable in the fundamentals of soccer creating a more technical player pool giving us a better end product years from now.


What coach of a national team doesn't want to achieve this? What coach of a national team doesn't say that for their nation to take the next step forward they need to focus on developing younger stars. Every coach says this. The difference is other coaches follow through and play youngsters. We don't.

acahmed14
Post #84
Friday April 19, 2013 4:38am

Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts: 33
msatoine i dont think we are on the same page here im talking about 6 to 8 years from now our u-20 and u-23 players will see the benefit from what jk has done, atleast thats what i hope. Dont get me wrong im in favor of calling in players but im not for risking wcq for the development of youth sounds a bit risky to me.

dolcem
Post #85
Friday April 19, 2013 9:11am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,036
Original post from Know Nothing

LOL Spurs, the team that has hired such winners as Christian Gross. They make it a habit of hiring former players as managers to appease the fans, such as Ardiles and Glenn Hoddle, so approaching JK was natural since he was revered there.

and aside from the topic, Bayern went out to the best side of all time...LOL!!!!! Barca were lucky Ovrebo decided to turn a blind eye and not award any of 4 legitimate penalty claims against Chelsea. A great side would have found a way to win at least one leg of a tie, but barca squeaked through on goal difference!


This is just like your other post: quibble over minor details without answering the real argument.

Your bit on Barcelona just shows your ignorance really...I said "arguably" the best of all time, which that team undoubtedly is in the conversation for. There is a reason that many experts believe they were. Sir Alex Ferguson said that team was the best team he ever faced. A lot of people believed that ManU side was the best ManU side of the modern era (it certainly was at least second best, besides the 99 team) and Barca absolutely played them off the pitch. Even the best teams of all time don't win every Champions League game. That's not a requirement for being the best of all time. And BTW Henry had a legitimate goal called offside that game, and while one of the handballs and one of the tackles in the box could have gone either way, it wasn't the robbery that the English media depicted it as. Whatever the case, they're the best team I've seen in my lifetime (in any sport) and most neutrals will be telling about them to their grandchildren.

Have we ever had a manager get offers at places like Tottenham? Coach at places like Bayern Munich and the German NT? His resume is lightyears ahead of anyone we have ever had available to us. So I'm going to let him do his thing and not call for his head every step of the way unless the results get too bad. His job right now is to put a system in place and experiment. And we won't really be able to evaluate his body of work until after the World Cup.

If you can find another manager who would be willing to coach the US with a better resume than Klinsmann's, please say so, but otherwise you don't have an answer to the argument, you're just quibbling over its details.

Original post from MSantoine

What coach of a national team doesn't want to achieve this? What coach of a national team doesn't say that for their nation to take the next step forward they need to focus on developing younger stars. Every coach says this. The difference is other coaches follow through and play youngsters. We don't.


Yeah at least Klinsmann has some actually plans for it (getting the youth teams to play a consistent style). Arena or Bradley never had that kind of vision.

And no, his vision doesn't simply mean throwing a bunch of underqualified youngsters on the senior team. It means teaching them a system from the time they are young so that by the time they make their way to the senior team they have a better idea of what to do. The current crop of youngsters (the U-23 team, if you like) is not very good. You're one of the few people on here that want to see these guys get any playing time right now. Klinsmann will give these guys chances, he's just doing to do it slowly and do it when the results aren't quite as important (this summer). I respect his decision and think it's way too soon to criticize him for "not playing any youngsters." If guys like Shea, Gyau, Gatt, Adu, etc. actually do something at the club level and never get any chances before World Cup 2014, than you might have a point. But considering Agudelo and Boyd have gotten plenty of chances (and they are below Altidore and Gomez in the pecking order) and Corona is getting integrated into the team and will almost certainly get lots of playing time this summer, it's way too soon to be complaining about that.

Again, Klinsmann's vision is long-term, and it won't be until the current U-20's make their way to the senior team that we'll really know if it was a good idea. Luckily they look like a good group. But I don't think it's best for the team or those players if they get senior call-ups way too early and get anointed as the 'savior of American soccer.' So we have a few years.

And so if you're not satisfied with his plan and is implementation, who would you recommend? What plan would you like to see for US soccer? And which American managers have said they would like to enact such a plan? What qualified managers from abroad would come and coach us and attempt to improve US soccer in the long-term?

Klinsmann is by no means the perfect coach but he has the right vision and is much more qualified than any other manager we have available to us.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
MSantoine
Post #86
Friday April 19, 2013 12:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,142
Original post from dolcem

Klinsmann will give these guys chances, he's just doing to do it slowly and do it when the results aren't quite as important (this summer). I respect his decision and think it's way too soon to criticize him for "not playing any youngsters." If guys like Shea, Gyau, Gatt, Adu, etc. actually do something at the club level and never get any chances before World Cup 2014, than you might have a point.


So will you agree with me that if his gold cup roster consists of more players like morrow, Beckerman, davis, evans, EJ, Beasley, etc and not the aforementioned U23 guys you'll agree with me. If he plays those young guys in the gold cup I will agree with you.

Know Nothing
Post #87
Friday April 19, 2013 4:29pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 361
Original post from dolcem

This is just like your other post: quibble over minor details without answering the real argument.

Have we ever had a manager get offers at places like Tottenham? Coach at places like Bayern Munich and the German NT? His resume is lightyears ahead of anyone we have ever had available to us. So I'm going to let him do his thing and not call for his head every step of the way unless the results get too bad. His job right now is to put a system in place and experiment. And we won't really be able to evaluate his body of work until after the World Cup.

If you can find another manager who would be willing to coach the US with a better resume than Klinsmann's, please say so, but otherwise you don't have an answer to the argument, you're just quibbling over its details.

Yeah at least Klinsmann has some actually plans for it (getting the youth teams to play a consistent style). Arena or Bradley never had that kind of vision.

And no, his vision doesn't simply mean throwing a bunch of underqualified youngsters on the senior team. It means teaching them a system from the time they are young so that by the time they make their way to the senior team they have a better idea of what to do. The current crop of youngsters (the U-23 team, if you like) is not very good. You're one of the few people on here that want to see these guys get any playing time right now. Klinsmann will give these guys chances, he's just doing to do it slowly and do it when the results aren't quite as important (this summer). I respect his decision and think it's way too soon to criticize him for "not playing any youngsters." If guys like Shea, Gyau, Gatt, Adu, etc. actually do something at the club level and never get any chances before World Cup 2014, than you might have a point. But considering Agudelo and Boyd have gotten plenty of chances (and they are below Altidore and Gomez in the pecking order) and Corona is getting integrated into the team and will almost certainly get lots of playing time this summer, it's way too soon to be complaining about that.

Again, Klinsmann's vision is long-term, and it won't be until the current U-20's make their way to the senior team that we'll really know if it was a good idea. Luckily they look like a good group. But I don't think it's best for the team or those players if they get senior call-ups way too early and get anointed as the 'savior of American soccer.' So we have a few years.

And so if you're not satisfied with his plan and is implementation, who would you recommend? What plan would you like to see for US soccer? And which American managers have said they would like to enact such a plan? What qualified managers from abroad would come and coach us and attempt to improve US soccer in the long-term?

Klinsmann is by no means the perfect coach but he has the right vision and is much more qualified than any other manager we have available to us.


Well I am quibbling over minor points because for the most part I agree with you.

Yes, I will agree that JK was the best of the available options to manage the team, and still is. I can see he is trying to change the culture, adding more skill and creativity to the main asset of our national team during the Arena and Bradley era: resolve.

That being said, he is only a fair tactical manager and, in my opinion, only on a par with Bradley in that regard and not as good tactically as Arena or Bora. In many ways, his job is tougher than Bradley's because the team does not automatically pick itself like it used to. The pool of qualified players has definitely expanded, but we still lack a number of exceptional talents, just more players of the same skill level. I will give him time to find the right balance

And as a long suffering Chelsea supporter (since the mid 90's), I still take umbrage over that Barca semi. In many ways Chelsea is a lot like the USMNT: they are sometimes not the most skilled team out there, but their overall team resolve overcomes the skill of the other side.

dolcem
Post #88
Friday April 19, 2013 5:47pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,036
Original post from Know Nothing

Well I am quibbling over minor points because for the most part I agree with you.

Yes, I will agree that JK was the best of the available options to manage the team, and still is. I can see he is trying to change the culture, adding more skill and creativity to the main asset of our national team during the Arena and Bradley era: resolve.

That being said, he is only a fair tactical manager and, in my opinion, only on a par with Bradley in that regard and not as good tactically as Arena or Bora. In many ways, his job is tougher than Bradley's because the team does not automatically pick itself like it used to. The pool of qualified players has definitely expanded, but we still lack a number of exceptional talents, just more players of the same skill level. I will give him time to find the right balance

And as a long suffering Chelsea supporter (since the mid 90's), I still take umbrage over that Barca semi. In many ways Chelsea is a lot like the USMNT: they are sometimes not the most skilled team out there, but their overall team resolve overcomes the skill of the other side.


I hear you. I agree with you on everything except the bit about Bradley being better tactically than Klinsmann. I don't think Klinsmann is a great tactician by European standards but I think he understands the game better than someone like Coach Bob, who learned his trade from the NCAA system (tactically in the stone age). I think Coach Bob's tactics were the worst part of his coaching. He did a lot right, more than I gave him credit for at the time (I was a harsh critic, partly because I was annoyed he was picked over Klinsmann in '06). And the same applies to Arena. I never saw him as a tactical genius (and our coaching system hasn't produced one yet, which probably won't happen until one of our players who played at a high standard in Europe retires and becomes a good coach)
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
dolcem
Post #89
Friday April 19, 2013 6:08pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,036
Agree though on Chelsea, we're a similar style. I personally am not a big fan of this style as it's not conducive for youth development. Teams like Chelsea get the way they are by buying tons of foreign players. The traditional English style of play just doesn't produce great players anymore (and the good young ones usually have been taught a more continental style). Klinsmann knows this and wants us to play positive soccer, but it'll take a few years before that happens. And we won't produce a truly world class field player until we do so on all levels (grassroots and academy). That'll be a while. In the mean time we need to make some long-term goals and stick to them. I really hope Klinsmann becomes a technical director because we need one with that vision and he's more qualified than anyone else that would be willing to do it.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
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