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Rey Regicide
Post #121
Wednesday October 19, 2016 3:19pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
And to Europe, but I think in the end, he just wants a good life. Free of headaches, and uncertainty. That's awesome.

It also means that his success for the USMNT is no guaranteed, nor favored. Klinsmann wanted an uncomfortable environment.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/11/25/jurg...

seems like a lifetime ago sigh

goods
Post #122
Wednesday October 19, 2016 4:53pm

Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts: 563
Original post from Dave

I really hope that Nagbe isn't going to be locked out of the national team in the future due to his decision not to participate in the October friendlies. IMO Nagbe has a skill set that few players in our player pool can match. He can dribble in tight congested situations, he's constantly looking to link up with teammates, has great speed, plays gritty when on defense, is versatile (centrally or out wide), and draws a lot of fouls.
He has the potential to be a major contributor/starter for the team if given minutes.


To be fair to Nagbe, it is not as if the other national team members showed up either for the October friendlies.

Rey Regicide
Post #123
Wednesday October 19, 2016 6:27pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
See here's my problem with Klinsmann, and granted I'm no authority, I'm looking for YA to help me sort this out in my head.

Nagbe in my mind did what NO US MNT midfielder did, in awhile. Control the pace of the game against an opponent with decent amount of international experience and club value.

Green against Cuba and New Zealand did things that we've seen various people do, score goals against sucky competition. I mean it's great for Wondo, Wondo is a good player. He is really a good player.

But a poachers goal vs Cuba, in my mind, does not represent value added, or an address our needs.

To me, Agudelo, Bunbury, McCarty's performance against Chile years back, where they scared the crap out of them, second team be damned, was much more encouraging than a poachers goal.

Nagbe's performances have always been solid, he's only disappointed if you think Nagbe was in there to provide creativity in attack. That's not what he's about, we need it? Yes of course we do. But much more than that, we need someone who can control the game.

TheTruth
Post #124
Wednesday October 19, 2016 10:51pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
So what's your issue? Nagbe got a chance. Klinsy gave him his 1st call-up a couple of months after he got his citizenship, right? OK, so you say, 'but Klinsy hardly gave him any real playing time." Huh!?! You sound like the bad stereotype of these damn Millennials - expecting everything to come your way immediately w/o any hard work. Work hard, be patient, you'll get your chance young lad.

Surely Nagbe would have (or still will) get more chances [You never know the true story behind situations like this - did he have family issues or did his pussy hurt because Sacha was called in? Pride is a terrible thing, but that's another story. . .].

So, what's the problem? Lando suffered for taking a sabbatical (but was absolutely called back in eventually and used heavily); Howard lost his starting position (but is maybe, possibly back to being #1); etc. And these guys should have "penalized" for taking off, but not executed. Look at your workplace. If a woman (or man) takes a leave of absence for 12 months to take care of the kids, should she/he really step back and get the same place in the queue for promotion? Fuck no.

Again, depending on EXACTLY what happened w/ Nagbe, if he performs well next year in MLS he'll probably get called in again. Depending of course on performances by Bradley, Jones, Sacha, etc.

Dave
Post #125
Thursday October 20, 2016 12:39am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,002
@Regicide & @Truth -
We are starting the final stretch of World Cup Qualification next month against our 2 strongest opponents. Right now Kljestan is the flavor of the month due to positive performances against weak competition. We'll see if he's still the fan/coaches favorite after we play Mexico & Costa Rica.
Players like Jones, Dempsey, Wondo, & Beckerman are coming to the end of their international careers. Jones has been out injured and/or suspended more over the past 2 years than he has been available for selection. Dempsey is dealing with a medical issue that often ends a players playing days. Wondo & Beckerman are what they are...average players who are getting old.

What this means is that there are a minimum of 4 players who've been a major part of the team that are becoming more, and more questionable. That's 2 midfielder, 1 hybrid Mid/fwd, and 1 forward positions that are up for grabs.

Contending for the midfield slots we have: Kljestan, Nagbe, Williams & Kitchen. Kljestan is the current favorite with Williams & Kitchen fighting it out for the more defensive position that Beckerman has held. These 3 players are fairly static in where they can fit into a formation. Kljestan is a guy who works best at the top of a diamond. Williams is a Box-to-Box CM, and Kitchen is a CDM. This limits their functionality.

Nagbe is a more versatile player. He can play at the top of a diamond, as a box-to-box CM, as a wide midfielder, and even as a withdrawn forward. His ability to play in multiple positions should keep him in consideration, especially if one of the other 3 midfielders fail or struggle. JK likes and appreciates players who are versatile, so there is still plenty of opportunities remaining for a solid player.

We also have a group of young players working their way into the 23 and/or solidify their place in it. Players like Pulisic, Gooch, Green, Miazga, CCV, Morris, & Stanko. These players will have something to say in the matter. Pulisic, Gooch, Green have great versatility able to play wide, centrally, or on the forward line. They'll need to continue playing to maintain their positive momentum to claim/lock up a spot on the team. Miazga & CCV could impact the midfield by giving options that would allow Cameron to shift into the CDM role. This is a bit unlikely, but remains a possibility. Stanko is a player who could grow into either an option at CDM or as a Box-to-Box CM, but he's fairly far away from that at this point. Morris and a host of others are trying to fill the backup striker positions. I look forward to the continued battles at striker. Hopefully there'll be 4 strong contenders at the end of the day.

Rey Regicide
Post #126
Thursday October 20, 2016 10:12am

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Original post from TheTruth

So what's your issue? Nagbe got a chance. Klinsy gave him his 1st call-up a couple of months after he got his citizenship, right? OK, so you say, 'but Klinsy hardly gave him any real playing time." Huh!?! You sound like the bad stereotype of these damn Millennials - expecting everything to come your way immediately w/o any hard work. Work hard, be patient, you'll get your chance young lad.

Surely Nagbe would have (or still will) get more chances [You never know the true story behind situations like this - did he have family issues or did his pussy hurt because Sacha was called in? Pride is a terrible thing, but that's another story. . .].

So, what's the problem? Lando suffered for taking a sabbatical (but was absolutely called back in eventually and used heavily); Howard lost his starting position (but is maybe, possibly back to being #1); etc. And these guys should have "penalized" for taking off, but not executed. Look at your workplace. If a woman (or man) takes a leave of absence for 12 months to take care of the kids, should she/he really step back and get the same place in the queue for promotion? Fuck no.

Again, depending on EXACTLY what happened w/ Nagbe, if he performs well next year in MLS he'll probably get called in again. Depending of course on performances by Bradley, Jones, Sacha, etc.


Is that to me?

Again why so salty.

Nagbe got called in and played better than anyone at the CM position, not the "10" position that Klesjtan is playing in. He came in and completed ALL of his passes. and on top of that, scored a goal in his first true test run. Against TN T in a qualifer no less, dictated the game and "saved" the point for us. Yes it could have been much worse there. This is along the lines of my Reyna post. The one that pisses the world off, because in our world, it's more productive to score a poachers goal, or to be someone who mashes the head of a striker, than to be someone who literally builds and controls the game in midfield. There is no value perceived in that type of game here in the USA. And that is KILLING US. 4-0 at home vs TNT, that was awesome puli everyone was rocking it out, was I totally happy? HELL NO, because we were being shot at the WHOLE TIME. Want to know what was missing? Someone like Nagbe.

Listen I am pro Sasha, I'm pro Klinsmann, I'm pro USA.

butthurt millenial, what lol?

Julian Green. That guy got on the team because of a deal that was cut and you're saying this is justified...basically an entitled position... I'm the millenial thou,

To your points about Landon equivalence, I don't totally agree but yea, Nagbe doesn't even deserve to be called back.

My frustration is that Nagbe was called in, he was literally the player we needed, a true midfielder who worries ONLY about possession and pace of the game, was poked around for not being "clinical" or "definitive" when that is not him to begin with. And quite frankly, when you have Wondo chasing after your midfield, gifting possession all over midfield against Argentina, NOT what you needed. So either Klinsmann thinks he was getting something else with Nagbe, or maybe, just maybe (again pro Klinsmann here, I like the attitude, I like our performances under him) maybe he doesn't totally get it. It's perfectly ok for someone to be totally on board and have a little skepticism about an individual who warrants some sort of questioning.

Again, this isn't like "fire this guy" but be honest with your self, in a game against Arg when players went down for red cards, injuries, suspensions etc he put Beckerman and Wondo. In a tournament that was perfectly suited to breed new guys, guys like Puli and Nagbe, he played the latter basically no meaningful minutes, and even in those meager minutes he performed the way HE ALWAYS PERFORMS. A possession monster.

In a game where we're chasing 3 goals, he puts him in. In a game against Ecuador, where we NEEEDED possession, down a man, someone to chase the game in space and then someone to chase opponents in space he puts in Beckerman. A game that needed someone running like a mad man chasing people down, more athleticism he puts in Beckerman, a man who even in his younger, more in form days was ill suited for that role.

Again, I'm not asking for the house to be burnt down, I'm not asking, I've already said I never want to see Nagbe called back in, you just don't do that. You don't turn down calls, esp after the anticipation and courting between parties and then offer that type of excuse, you're asking to be painted in a certain light. Asking to be ostracized.

But at the same time, can we come to the middle and say JK screwed this up, too? Or is that too much to ask?

Luckily we have BRadley Cameron, Kitchen, Zelalem, Hyndman potentially if those boneheads find their way into the 18. So it's not debilitating.

TheTruth
Post #127
Thursday October 20, 2016 2:48pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
You axed for help so I gave it to you. And your Dolcem-lengthed response is too long for me to read. Millennials ain't the only ones w/ short attention spans, you know.

TheTruth
Post #128
Thursday October 20, 2016 2:54pm

Joined Dec 2013
Total Posts: 950
Dave - You keep pushing it, but I hate to break the news to you: we have fewer "questions" about the USMNT starting 11 today than we have had at any time in the last 4 years. Lando was a big discussion for a long time; Jones/Bradley position was massive for over a year; Jozy should have been "out" according to most of the people on this forum for years; Castillo; Shea. . .

There's just ain't that many questions right now. Turn on TV news if you want sensationalism.

Dave
Post #129
Thursday October 20, 2016 4:57pm

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,002
@Truth - I'm not disputing that the starting XI is fairly well set right now. We all know that Howard/Guzan, Fabian, Brooks, Cameron, Yedlin, Bradley, Bedoya, Pulisic, Kljestan, Jozy, & Wood are going to start in the November Qualifiers; so long as they are all healthy. What I'm actually looking at is the 23 player squad. Beyond the 12 I listed there are only a couple/handful players who have fairly well secured their roster spots....Besler, Chandler, & Zardes (when healthy). The other 8 roster spots have been a rotation of players.
These 8 spots are what the players I previously mentioned are fighting for. While Dempsey & Jones would have been good bets to having been part of the starting XI their health conditions (Heart & collateral ligament respectfully) have all but ruled them out of the US team for the foreseeable future. And even if they do somehow regain their health and return to the US Team, how long before they're sidelined again with an injury? And while Wondo & Beckerman have been mainstays of the team in the past....don't count on them being there much longer. Younger options are finally starting to assert themselves and prove that they belong. As these young guys gain experience & consistency we'll hopefully see the end of the rotation.....and really build towards the future.

cleancutimage
Post #130
Thursday October 20, 2016 11:05pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,309
I understand right now, he might be the most over-hyped player in our national team pool. It could be a case of 'what could have been' though. He hasn't been given a lot of opportunity when called but he also has been very inconsistent with his club. Until he is more consistent with his club or moves to Europe and reaches his potential then he shouldn't be given an automatic place on this team based on his skill-set.

Rey Regicide
Post #131
Friday October 21, 2016 12:27pm

Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts: 2,001
Personally

I don't think he's an automatic starter. But how many starts has he had? In experimental settings?

Is Julian Green, more deserving, of starts than Darlington Nagbe?

Again, this is a done subject, Klinsmann should not agree to bring back Nagbe.

Just from a logical standpoint, if we were to try to reason this out in our brains. Well, I can't speak for you, apparently it's more than well thought out. To me it's nonsense.

Not sure how you can overrate statistics. He completed close to 90 percent of the passes.

I don't know if anyone feels the same way, but I think we're pretty good at sucker punching the Argentina's the Colombia's the Germany's of the world. It's not getting the f ran over in midfield when the opposing team wants to choke us that we have a problem with.

johnvuke
Dallas
Post #132
Friday October 21, 2016 2:48pm

Joined Aug 2016
Total Posts: 33
Good points Rey. The biggest difference, and why Julian is getting starts where as Nagbe came off the bench is due to age. Julian Green is a 21 year old trying to break through Bayern Munich. Nagbe is 26, going on 27.

A spot start for Green is a way to build confidence, and showcase him. If Green can play well in his friendly spot starts, and get 15 games and do decent with Bayern, he can then move to a really good club at the end of his contract. Nagbe is past that point and needs to be fighting for breaking into the actual team. I love Nagbe, he's hands down the most technical on the ball player the US has. That being said, he can disappear entirely from a game, which is a problem when his main role is to link defense to attack and be a threat. I don't think it's a stretch for JK to have higher expectations of club consistency with a 26 year old than he does a 21 year old.

MSantoine
Post #133
Friday October 21, 2016 6:15pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
If Nagbe is deemed one of the best 23 players he should be brought into camp. It should be as simple as that. No one knows the reason and discussions he had with Jurgen. Nagbe is a fringe guy at this point. We aren't taking a step backwards by kicking him off our team. Is he better than Sacha? maybe. But thats the point. He isnt making us go from barely qualifying for the world cup to competing to win. He is maybe good enough to start in 2018, but its not a surefire thing. If his form stays/improves and he's good enough bring him in. Otherwise let him stay home.

Now on the flip side if Jurgen "punishes" a guy because he skipped some meaningless friendlies in Cuba and vs New Zealand when his club is in a playoff fight then shame on Jurgen. If he flew to Cuba, played 20-25 minutes then got released after that game (see Morris) would that have really been any different then skipping it altogether?

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #134
Friday October 21, 2016 11:43pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,517
My two cents, Nagbe has a narrow skill set. Great in possession with little to offer in the attack...he's not a threat. If we ever need a guy to kill a game off by endless possession he's the guy. If we need to pressure the attacking third and score he's not the guy. He's not as good out on the flank so the only place to play him is in the middle....defensively not a great option as a deeper 8...or even a high 8. So in my view you can only slot him in at ACM...but he's not proactive around the box...he just cycles the ball...not good. There are others players that are better at that position. Puli could play there...Sacha has a shot at it until further notice because he is very proactive around the box.

Nagbe's time kind of came and went...seems like we were drooling over him just 9 months ago...now he doesn't really have a place on the team...the most long awaited, but briefest passing fancy we've ever seen with the nats. With all the youth coming in....like Gooch...Nagbe will just fall off the depth chart...good player, but his narrow skill set doesn't give us what we need at the international level for ACM.

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #135
Saturday October 22, 2016 6:32pm

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 893
The 2013 Nagbe that had us excited hasn't shown itself since. Has he even been an avg MLS player since?
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
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