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Scout92
Lone Star State(Gun State)
Post #31
Wednesday February 20, 2013 9:39am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,054
The 4-3-3 formation can be successful with any team you just have to have the right players. Most important for the US the right wingers, so yes I agree the problem is the players selection. Take the best teams that use a 4-3-3 (Brazil, Bayern, Arsenal, etc.) the wingers on those teams are quick skillful wingers that hug the side line and utilize the space, which means draging players out to create runs threw from the midfield at times. Also driving inside(that shea does well) and crossing the ball. We dont need players like zusi that is more of a central type player (slower) or EJ that is a pure stiker. Players like Shea and Gatt or those types of players would be better for a attempt at a successful 4-3-3, a 4-4-2 would be better formation to use zusi and EJ.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #32
Wednesday February 20, 2013 8:01pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 945
The 4-3-3 is suppose to be an all out attacking style of soccer, almost leaving the defense out to dry. And its actually best suited for counterattacks. To successfully play this you have to have world class defenders all across the board. And the enitre central midfield have to be able to pass/create/possess the ball. The 3 forwards rarely play any defense. And the fullbacks dont come up.

You guys keep rattling off teams like Germany, Bayern, Arsenal, Tottenham. They dont play the out and out 4-3-3. They play this hybrid version which has come more to look like a 4-2-3-1. Your wingers, guys like Bale, Lennon, Ribery, Muller, Podolski, Walcott, Reus dont sit so high defensively. They run up and down the entire sideline all game long. And now most teams are starting to play 2 holding midfielders with one attack minded midfielder in front of them, like Ozil, Kroos, Cazorla, which is allowing the fullbacks to join up in the attack. Honestly, I dont care what people want to call it. And truthfully, when I see a formation, its how I think they should look defensively.

Either way, we dont have the defense, and klinsmann doesnt bring in/play the correct midfield combination, both centrally and outside, to play this brand of soccer.

jy09er
Post #33
Wednesday February 20, 2013 8:08pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 51
Why has the 4-4-2 become so dated? I'm not arguing for it, I am just curious as to why coaches all over the world seem to be in favor of formations like the ones being discussed here.

I understand that teams that may be going up against world class oppoenents might take a more defensive formation, but I haven't seen a traditional 4-4-2 at the professional level for a long time.

navi8132
Post #34
Wednesday February 20, 2013 8:09pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,952
Neither the U-20's nor the U-23's had the players for it. Nor will it help our senior team. Nor will it make them better players. And remind me again when the last time a youth team over the age of 18 has qualified for a major tournament? The USSF is taking steps BACKWARDS.

jy09er
Post #35
Wednesday February 20, 2013 8:19pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 51
Original post from navi8132

Neither the U-20's nor the U-23's had the players for it. Nor will it help our senior team. Nor will it make them better players. And remind me again when the last time a youth team over the age of 18 has qualified for a major tournament? The USSF is taking steps BACKWARDS.


I'm not arguing for a 442 formation (as I mentioned in my post). I totally agree the USMNT don't have the players for it. I was just wondering outloud why we don't see it more often with teams that have better personnel.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #36
Wednesday February 20, 2013 8:36pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,047
Original post from navi8132

Neither the U-20's nor the U-23's had the players for it. Nor will it help our senior team. Nor will it make them better players. And remind me again when the last time a youth team over the age of 18 has qualified for a major tournament? The USSF is taking steps BACKWARDS.


U-20's in 2009. Major tournaments happen every two years for the Youth teams. They missed out on 2011. It sucks about the Olympic team, but you make it sound like the US u-20's have failed for a long time in which they haven't. Shit happens and sometimes at youth level Countries don't qualify for a major tournament i.e Brasil and Argentina this cycle. Mexico has missed out on plenty of U-20 tournaments as well as missing out on Olympic tournaments in the past most recent 2008.

Chill bro.

USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #37
Wednesday February 20, 2013 9:49pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,199
Original post from richieJkulesaNY

The 4-3-3 is suppose to be an all out attacking style of soccer, almost leaving the defense out to dry. And its actually best suited for counterattacks. To successfully play this you have to have world class defenders all across the board. And the enitre central midfield have to be able to pass/create/possess the ball. The 3 forwards rarely play any defense. And the fullbacks dont come up.

You guys keep rattling off teams like Germany, Bayern, Arsenal, Tottenham. They dont play the out and out 4-3-3. They play this hybrid version which has come more to look like a 4-2-3-1. Your wingers, guys like Bale, Lennon, Ribery, Muller, Podolski, Walcott, Reus dont sit so high defensively. They run up and down the entire sideline all game long. And now most teams are starting to play 2 holding midfielders with one attack minded midfielder in front of them, like Ozil, Kroos, Cazorla, which is allowing the fullbacks to join up in the attack. Honestly, I dont care what people want to call it. And truthfully, when I see a formation, its how I think they should look defensively.

Either way, we dont have the defense, and klinsmann doesnt bring in/play the correct midfield combination, both centrally and outside, to play this brand of soccer.


I rattle off teams that play a 4-3-3 (their managers are proponents of the 4-3-3)....just because it's not how YOU see or what a 4-3-3 doesn't make it less of a 4-3-3. All of these teams have world class defenders yet they still need help defensively from the wingers....I don't know anyone that plays 3 forwards sitting at the center line watching everyone else play defense. Also, you are confusing formation with tactical play...a 4-3-3 doesn't automatically mean all out attacking or mainly used to counter.....lots of teams play possession-oriented football with slow build up play....Barca, Liverpool, Ajax to an extent. There are a few that are playing two deeper mids...but Arsenal isn't one (Walcott is a box to box) neither is Bayern (the Furian is a box to box).

USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #38
Wednesday February 20, 2013 9:51pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,199
Original post from navi8132

Neither the U-20's nor the U-23's had the players for it. Nor will it help our senior team. Nor will it make them better players. And remind me again when the last time a youth team over the age of 18 has qualified for a major tournament? The USSF is taking steps BACKWARDS.


The U23s definitely had the players for it.....sure they could have had a better 6. That tourney came down to a weak defense which would have been weak regardless..and keeping blunders.

dolcem
Post #39
Thursday February 21, 2013 5:51am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from jy09er

Why has the 4-4-2 become so dated? I'm not arguing for it, I am just curious as to why coaches all over the world seem to be in favor of formations like the ones being discussed here.

I understand that teams that may be going up against world class oppoenents might take a more defensive formation, but I haven't seen a traditional 4-4-2 at the professional level for a long time.


The top teams don't do it because they get outnumbered in central midfield and can't maintain possession. Watch the last time Barcelona played ManU in the Champions League. ManU is the only big team to use a 4-4-2 and since Ronaldo and Tevez left they have been garbage in Europe (except for the time they went to the final but they have the easiest route ever to get there). All the best teams play a 4-3-3/4-5-1 now. I wanted to see us do the same but without Donovan we just don't have wingers. Shea, Gatt, and Zusi shouldn't be anywhere near the field. Shea might prove me wrong and if he starts getting a decent amount of playing time at Stoke I want to see him given another shot. But these guys have shown themselves to not be international caliber. The 4-4-2 diamond with CM's is the only formation that fits us, we just need to put a creative CM in the midfield. I sympathize with some of the calls for the 3-5-2 (Johnson and Chandler as wingbacks) but playing with 3 at the back is really tough at the international level. And we definitely don't have three centerbacks who are good enough to play for us.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
admsghs27
Post #40
Thursday February 21, 2013 7:32am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,181
By the the way our sub 20 formed a 4 3 2 1 according to ramos....

Scout92
Lone Star State(Gun State)
Post #41
Thursday February 21, 2013 5:16pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,054
Original post from USnLFCfan

I rattle off teams that play a 4-3-3 (their managers are proponents of the 4-3-3)....just because it's not how YOU see or what a 4-3-3 doesn't make it less of a 4-3-3. All of these teams have world class defenders yet they still need help defensively from the wingers....I don't know anyone that plays 3 forwards sitting at the center line watching everyone else play defense. Also, you are confusing formation with tactical play...a 4-3-3 doesn't automatically mean all out attacking or mainly used to counter.....lots of teams play possession-oriented football with slow build up play....Barca, Liverpool, Ajax to an extent. There are a few that are playing two deeper mids...but Arsenal isn't one (Walcott is a box to box) neither is Bayern (the Furian is a box to box).


True. I was ganna say somthing about that.

USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #42
Thursday February 21, 2013 5:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,199
Original post from USnLFCfan

I rattle off teams that play a 4-3-3 (their managers are proponents of the 4-3-3)....just because it's not how YOU see or what a 4-3-3 doesn't make it less of a 4-3-3. All of these teams have world class defenders yet they still need help defensively from the wingers....I don't know anyone that plays 3 forwards sitting at the center line watching everyone else play defense. Also, you are confusing formation with tactical play...a 4-3-3 doesn't automatically mean all out attacking or mainly used to counter.....lots of teams play possession-oriented football with slow build up play....Barca, Liverpool, Ajax to an extent. There are a few that are playing two deeper mids...but Arsenal isn't one (Walcott is a box to box) neither is Bayern (the Furian is a box to box).


Meant to say Wilshere....not edit buttons on this thing.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #43
Thursday February 21, 2013 6:51pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,047
Original post from admsghs27

By the the way our sub 20 formed a 4 3 2 1 according to ramos....


No way was that a 4-3-2-1. He started out more like a 4-1-2-3

this was the starting 11

Cuevas------Mario------Jose
-------Gil-------Joya-----
----------Trapp-------
Torre----Oneill---Stanko----Boyd
-----------Cropper---------

This put way to much defensive strain on Trapp in the midfield. Joya and Gil rarely tracked back on defense, and Villarreal was just as bad about tracking back on defense. Cuevas tracked back the most.

Trapp isn't known for his defensive prowess either; he is more of a box to box #8.

My guess Ramos will pair Lopez and Trapp against Costa Rica which will help solidify the midfield defensively.

I expect Ramos will use a 4-2-3-1 which by the way is just a variation of a 4-3-3.

I would also take a guess that Ocegueda and Miller are starting at LB and RB respectively. I also have a feeling that Villarreal will be benched in this formation with Joya playing RW.

Most likely you will see this against Costa Rica

----------Mario-------
Cuevas-----Gil--------Joya
------Lopez----Trapp-----
Juan----Oneill----Stanko----Miller
----------Cropper------

Subs: Keisewetter for Mario, Villarreal for Gil, Torre for Juan late in the game.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #44
Thursday February 21, 2013 6:59pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 945
Original post from USnLFCfan

I rattle off teams that play a 4-3-3 (their managers are proponents of the 4-3-3)....just because it's not how YOU see or what a 4-3-3 doesn't make it less of a 4-3-3. All of these teams have world class defenders yet they still need help defensively from the wingers....I don't know anyone that plays 3 forwards sitting at the center line watching everyone else play defense. Also, you are confusing formation with tactical play...a 4-3-3 doesn't automatically mean all out attacking or mainly used to counter.....lots of teams play possession-oriented football with slow build up play....Barca, Liverpool, Ajax to an extent. There are a few that are playing two deeper mids...but Arsenal isn't one (Walcott is a box to box) neither is Bayern (the Furian is a box to box).


Did you watch AC Milan/Barca yesterday? Did you see how high up the field El Shaarawy, Pazzini and Boateng were trying to play defensively? Thats what 3 forwards looks like, and essentially the true 4-3-3. They were playing for the counter attack. BUT El Shaarawy and Pazzini couldnt stay so high because Alves and Jordi Alba kept pressing forward. And when you have a midfield like Barcelona does, you have no choice but to fall back. That then changes ACs tactcics for when they get the ball back. They had to play out the back through the midfield most of the time. There were a couple of times where Barca lost the ball right away and AC had the opportunity for the counter attack and boomed the ball forward onto the wing where El Shaarawy and Pazzini were waiting.

Ill be honest, I have no idea what Barca plays as far as formation goes. When they showed it on TV they had them lined up as a 4-3-3. But they werent playing a striker. When they have the ball it looks like a 4-6-0. But then again, Barca is a special team with special players. They're first touch, movement off the ball, and awareness for where every player is on the field is something we might never see again.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #45
Thursday February 21, 2013 7:01pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 945
Original post from 2tone

Most likely you will see this against Costa Rica

-----Mario----
Cuevas---Gil----Joya
---Lopez--Trapp---
Juan--Oneill--Stanko--Miller
-----Cropper---

Subs: Keisewetter for Mario, Villarreal for Gil, Torre for Juan late in the game.


Def agree with this lineup. Wouldnt mind seeing Stanko paired with Lopez and Torre playing CB.

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