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rainORshine
Post #1
Sunday January 27, 2013 4:03pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
ahh - the enduring legend of stu holden. i think he is awesome and hope he finds his way back to top form. but the delusion that he is superior to kljestan is pretty funny. if you dont think kljestan would also be the best player at bolton, why not? cant wait to hear rebuttals.

SK and SH are both 27, both entered MLS in 2006...

06
SK - started for chivas; 8 assists; rookie of year finalist
SH - 3 starts for houston
advantage - kljestan

07
SK - 3rd in MLS with 13 assists
SH - 11 starts for houston
advantage - kljestan

08
SK - MLS best XI; started at CM in olympics
SH - 18 starts for houston; started at RM in olympics
advantage - kljestan

09
Sk - 5g / 4a
SH - 6g / 4a; MLS best XI
advantage - holden

10
SK - transferred to anderlecht over summer
SH - transferred to bolton in january

10 - 11
SK - became fixture at CM for anderlecht; 2 goals
SH - starting CM for bolton; 2g / 2a; bolton player of year
advantage - holden

11-12
SK - 5g / 5a as starter in belgium and europa league
SH - injured
advantage - kljestan

12 (fall) -
SK - 2g / 7a as starter in belgium and champions league
SH - injured
advantage - kljestan

summary
06 - SK
07 - SK
08 - SK
09 - SH
10/11 - SH
11/12 - SK
12 - SK

SK 5 - 2 SH

MSantoine
Post #2
Sunday January 27, 2013 4:12pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,020
I think this proves exactly why people are excited about Holden. from 09-11 Holden was better according to yourself. Then he got hurt. Holden[s upside is much higher than SK as if he regains his pre-injury form, a big IF, then he is one of our 3-4 best players on our team. Sacha will never be one of our 3-4 best players ever. Thats the difference

rainORshine
Post #3
Sunday January 27, 2013 4:20pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from MSantoine

I think this proves exactly why people are excited about Holden. from 09-11 Holden was better according to yourself. Then he got hurt. Holden[s upside is much higher than SK as if he regains his pre-injury form, a big IF, then he is one of our 3-4 best players on our team. Sacha will never be one of our 3-4 best players ever. Thats the difference


thats funny - i feel like it proves that their potential is virtually identical. their production in MLS in 09 was basically equal. holden was the best player on a pretty poor EPL side (15th in EPL before being demoted in 11/12). meanwhile kljestan was doing well with best team in belgium. if you look at entire picture i dont see where people are seeing this gap in potential

Mojofc
Post #4
Sunday January 27, 2013 4:43pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 666
Kljestan has been poor to average in a US uniform. He panics under pressure. He has not been able to keep pace with international speed.

His best game by a LONG shot (pun intended) was against Scotland. Scotland pressured no one on the USA team the entire game. Kljestan had as much time as he wanted on the ball. That game played into Kljestans hands and is extremely rare at this level. Typically from what I've seen him do at the International level... he gets the ball, they pressure and he gives the ball away over and over again. When he has time, he plays pretty well.

I'll speak as though Holden is in the present (pre-injury). We still don't quite know how he will be effected.
Holden on the other hand... he can hold the ball under pressure. He played extremely well in a very fast paced EPL league. He played quite well in a USA uniform although he was injured quite frequently and wasn't able to play as much as everyone would have hoped.

If Holden comes back as he was, he's a starter with MB.

If Kljestan is all of a sudden able to handle the speed of International games, I'm all for him. I've never witnessed it though in the past with him and don't see him all of a sudden able to handle it either. If he can change that much.. awesome, I'd love it.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #5
Sunday January 27, 2013 5:10pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,822
I have to say that that rating system you used is pretty awful.

Bob Bradley chose Holden over Kljestan for the WC squad in 2010 eventhough Holden wasn't fully recovered from his ankle injury.

KLinsmann talks about how he can't wait to get Holden back on the field, and was in constant communication with Holden during his rehabilitation.

Klinsmann virtually ignored Kljestan for a year.

Most pundits and coaches will tell you that Holden was much much better than Kljestan before the injury.

Does Kljestan have some good attributes, yes. But most people would agree that if they had the choice between a healthy Holden or a healthy Kljestan they would choose a healthy Holden.

Holden has more energy, more athleticism, a cooler head at international level, better passing range, and a better defensive presence.

Oh and the Belgium league isn't very good either. I would rate the Championship higher than the Jupiler League.

rainORshine
Post #6
Sunday January 27, 2013 6:55pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
seems like big criticism of kljestan is that his game falters when the competition level is high. general consensus was that he performed quite well in champions league against likes of milan, malaga and zenit - with a couple of assists in group stage - which is same number that holden had in his entire 10-11 EPL season

belgium league isnt very good? championship is better? i think is an irresponsible assessment. jupiler is currently ranked 10th in uefa, just behind russia and holland, just ahead of greece and turkey. championship is better than all of these leagues? i dont think so

Scout92
Lone Star State(Gun State)
Post #7
Sunday January 27, 2013 8:06pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 992
Im a big kljestan fan, i think he should be given a shot to prove himself in the center next to bradley after the work he has done in belgium at least...but after saying that i have to say i think holden is better than kljestan. Holden operates at a higher level on the field, i think if both were started in the center of the park aganist a team like italy we would easily see that. But im speaking of the before injury holden, hopefully he comes back the same.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #8
Sunday January 27, 2013 8:42pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,822
Original post from rainORshine

seems like big criticism of kljestan is that his game falters when the competition level is high. general consensus was that he performed quite well in champions league against likes of milan, malaga and zenit - with a couple of assists in group stage - which is same number that holden had in his entire 10-11 EPL season

belgium league isnt very good? championship is better? i think is an irresponsible assessment. jupiler is currently ranked 10th in uefa, just behind russia and holland, just ahead of greece and turkey. championship is better than all of these leagues? i dont think so


You do realise that those ranking are based off of countries coefficients in the Europa League and Champions League. Hence England is ranked as a Country for club ball at #2. While Belgium is ranked #10 as a country. It's not Jupiler league versus EPL.

rainORshine
Post #9
Sunday January 27, 2013 9:23pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from 2tone

You do realise that those ranking are based off of countries coefficients in the Europa League and Champions League. Hence England is ranked as a Country for club ball at #2. While Belgium is ranked #10 as a country. It's not Jupiler league versus EPL.


are you saying you think teams below EPL/jupiler are competing in CL / EL? i dont get what your point is

Mojofc
Post #10
Sunday January 27, 2013 9:54pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 666
rainORshine,

After everything you've stated, you never really declared you feel Kljestan is a better player than Holden. You simply used stats that prove nothing.

Do you truly feel Kljestan at his best is better than Holden at his best at the international level?
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #11
Sunday January 27, 2013 10:30pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,822
Original post from rainORshine

are you saying you think teams below EPL/jupiler are competing in CL / EL? i dont get what your point is


Absolutley teams have participated from the Championship in the Europa league. Birmingham City come to mind in 2011-2012. Newcastle United was in the Championship 3 years ago now they are participating in the Europa league this year. How can you not understand my point? The Coeffeicient is based off of all clubs from those two countires that have participated in the Champions League and Europa league. You are trying to make it out that the Jupiler league is ranked 10th in which it is not. The country Belgium is ranked 10th in UEFA's coeffeicient not the Jupiler league. Really it's not that hard to understand. Just like if Bradford City wins the League Cup this season( which is a strong possibility) they are automatically in the Europa league because England is a top six ranked association. So there you have it. It's not about the EPL versus the Jupiler league. It's about all clubs that have taken place in those two competitions.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #12
Sunday January 27, 2013 10:42pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,822
That also demonstrates that the football across all leagues in England is far superior to the leagues in Belgium. Anderlecht is a top club in Belgium, but you put Anderlecht in England and that team would be a top Championship team or a perennial bottom club in the EPL. There is not much difference between the bottom 10 clubs in the EPL and the top 10 clubs in the Championship

rainORshine
Post #13
Sunday January 27, 2013 10:51pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from Mojofc

rainORshine,

After everything you've stated, you never really declared you feel Kljestan is a better player than Holden. You simply used stats that prove nothing.

Do you truly feel Kljestan at his best is better than Holden at his best at the international level?


so you are trying to argue that holden has always been better than kljestan, including 06-08?

listen - from beginning of 2010 through spring of 2011 holden was at his best and better than kljestan. since then, kljestan has been playing his best soccer and i would say is at a level roughly equivalent of where holden was, probably better by now.

my point is that holden is over-rated relative to kljestan. the evidence just does not exist that holden surpassed kljestan by so far that holden should be viewed as an automatic first-team choice while kljestan gets very little respect

lets face it, kljestan took his knocks with USMNT before he was anywhere near his peak level. he got early opportunities because he was simply better than holden from 2006-2008. remember, they are the same age. while kljestan was put on stage early, holden's game had matured before he was thrown in spotlight - so he looked better.

if you put kljestan out there now he will look equal to or better than holden of 10/11. there is far more than enough evidence that this is a logical hypothesis and why it makes very little sense that JK has ignored kljestan

rainORshine
Post #14
Sunday January 27, 2013 11:01pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,770
Original post from 2tone

That also demonstrates that the football across all leagues in England is far superior to the leagues in Belgium. Anderlecht is a top club in Belgium, but you put Anderlecht in England and that team would be a top Championship team or a perennial bottom club in the EPL. There is not much difference between the bottom 10 clubs in the EPL and the top 10 clubs in the Championship


if you think you have some sort of evidence that Championship is better than Jupiler you are insane. i thought you had moved past that stage.

do you rate Championship higher than Eredivisie?

i would put anderlecht at 7-10 in EPL. that is what their results in europe translate to

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #15
Sunday January 27, 2013 11:05pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 4,822
What evidence? Holden played in a far superior league than Kljestan has. Providing a few assists in the Champions league really doesn't provide sufficient evidence that Kljestan is equal to or better than Holden. Holden was rated as the top CM in the EPL back in the first half of the EPL season in 2010-2011. He was voted Boltons best player eventhough he was out for the remainder 3 months of the season. Pray tell me has Kljestan got any near those accolades for Anderlecht in a far inferior league?

Kljestan has some good attributes as a player. I hope he continues to get better, and I hope he leaves Belguim and tries his hand in a much better league. If Holden comes back fully healthy my guess is that you see Holden starting alongside Bradley next fall in the WC qualifiers not Kljestan. But I do like Kljestan much more than Torres. Thats for sure.

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