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DougieB11
Avon, IN
Post #31
Sunday December 30, 2012 8:41am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 49
Why should gatt be left alone until hes a btter player. Thats why you bring him into the senior team. To show him what he needs to do to improve and to build chemistry with the team.
You cant leave him out when hes probably the best player at his position depending on what line-up jk puts on the field. Yes hes far from finsihed but he needs to be in the team

dolcem
Post #32
Monday December 31, 2012 5:57am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from MSantoine

This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements. Have you heard of Landon Donovan? How about Clint Dempsey? They were 22-24 and playing in the MLS at a time when the MLS was clearly inferior to the Norwegian League. What about everyone's favorite Freddy Adu. He was playing in 2nd division Greece and 2nd division Turkey as a 21-22 year old. So its okay for a 22 year old in 2nd division Greece/Turkey to get shots but not Gatt? Gatt has 12 goals in 55 games in Austria and Norway. Adu has 12 goals in 54 games in MLS and 2nd division european leagues. I'd say Gatt deserves a look to see if he can keep getting better ala Dempsey and Donovan.


I think we can all agree that Landon Donovan is an exception to the rule. He had world class potential but decided to stay in the MLS instead of trying to make it in Europe (none of us can be really sure what the reason was and many will disagree).

As far as Dempsey goes, he was a sub for us in '06 who did surprisingly well. But he was much more technically gifted than Gatt...Gatt has pace and that's about it. And to the guy who said you develop your technique as you get older, that's simply not true. Soccer is not like American sports and our inability to understand the difference is a big part of what is holding us back at the sport. Players don't change very much after their late teens/early twenties, and certainly not in terms of athleticism or technique. It's all mental after that. Look at all of the top players, they were playing professionally in their teens, sometimes as early 16 (Aguero started playing professionally when he was 15). This is why the NCAA system doesn't work. But I digress. Dempsey was a late bloomer (and another exception to the rule) and right now it seems like that's what we have to hope for in our players. I'm not sure that I have high hopes for Gatt being a similar player because he doesn't have much else besides his pace and he is injury prone (and could lose the only thing that makes him good). For the most part, (again, not always, but mostly), you know what a player's potential is by the time he's 22.

I'm not ripping on Gatt or anything, all I'm saying is it's not 2006 anymore. Unless the guy is an absolute beast or his name is Landon, I think we should avoid guys playing in the MLS or Scandinavian leagues in our starting lineup. We have enough players in the top European leagues to make a starting XI without relying on guys playing in the Scandinavian leagues. I hope I'm proven wrong and that Gatt does well for us but I'm not holding my breath. My guess is that come 2014 he'll be good enough to be a decent sub when we want some pace but nothing more. But I just don't see him turning out to be World Class. He would have made it out of Norway by then.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #33
Monday December 31, 2012 6:59am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 279
dolcem said, "And to the guy who said you develop your technique as you get older, that's simply not true. Soccer is not like American sports and our inability to understand the difference is a big part of what is holding us back at the sport."

We are not being held back in Soccer at all. Soccer and the ability of our players has been growing in leaps and bounds. It's people who think like you who could potentially hold back the sport. Of course a person can continue to develop technique as they get older. The human brain has what is called plasticity where it is able to develop new neural connections your entire life.
As far as Gatt goes, who cares what league he is playing in? Does he pass the eye test. I thought he played decent vs. a very good European side. I think his play warrants another call up at least. It is difficult to judge a player on a single call up to the nats.

DougieB11
Avon, IN
Post #34
Monday December 31, 2012 8:05am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 49
Dolcem u r making my arguement for me. The few 16and 17 yr old who break into their first teams either become world class or flops. But their entire life is devoted to soccer because the join the academies at 7-9 and then do nothing but play soccer. The clubs do provide basic schooling, but they still control what info these kids are getting.
If mls and the academies ever get close to that point. Then we will start turning out pro caliber players from 15-19. Until then we have to accept the system that we have in which academy kids still have to go to school and only have game/travel expenses paid by clubs.
Most of these guys dont break into their first team until 19-20 and even fewer become full starters or stars until 21 at the earliest... So while domestically our guys are a bit behind, the guys overseas are right on track and more will joing them in the next two years. Yes Gatt plays in norway but he plays for the best team who constantpy get champions and europa league action. The argument over his injury history while valid looks to be a thing of the past as he has seen nutritionists, specialists and therapists to learn how to better manage his body and early returns are positve.
I will be shocked if he doesnt become one of the stars of the future and maybe even the present.

MSantoine
Post #35
Monday December 31, 2012 7:27pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,187
Original post from dolcem

I think we should avoid guys playing in the MLS or Scandinavian leagues in our starting lineup. We have enough players in the top European leagues to make a starting XI without relying on guys playing in the Scandinavian leagues.


What wingers do we have playing in top european leagues?

dolcem
Post #36
Thursday January 3, 2013 4:28am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from Kamphgruppe

dolcem said, "And to the guy who said you develop your technique as you get older, that's simply not true. Soccer is not like American sports and our inability to understand the difference is a big part of what is holding us back at the sport."

We are not being held back in Soccer at all. Soccer and the ability of our players has been growing in leaps and bounds. It's people who think like you who could potentially hold back the sport. Of course a person can continue to develop technique as they get older. The human brain has what is called plasticity where it is able to develop new neural connections your entire life.
As far as Gatt goes, who cares what league he is playing in? Does he pass the eye test. I thought he played decent vs. a very good European side. I think his play warrants another call up at least. It is difficult to judge a player on a single call up to the nats.


We are held back in soccer. We have more registered youth soccer players than the entire population of Uruguay. Yet we have never produced a player of the caliber of Forlan, Cavani, Suarez, etc. Two of the top three players in the world, Xavi and Messi, probably would have never made it as a pro in the states. They would have been considered too small (and Xavi too slow) and wouldn't have gotten into our top youth programs.

As far as what you said about technique, it is just completely wrong. You don't make serious improvements as far as skill goes after your teens. Little tweaks here and there but nothing more. Can you name one player in history who gained a good first touch in their 20's? Who learned how to dribble? Soccer players develop a lot more quickly than the athletes of American sports (something Americans have a hard time understanding; I saw in another thread people claim that soccer players peak from 28-30, this is not true) and this is primarily because technique is developed at such a young age. 16 year olds still have a lot of physical development remaining, they go pro in soccer though because they have already mastered the skills. This is just basic soccer knowledge. Only in the US do you have people with the attitude of "you can't teach speed" who continue to select the faster, bigger players with the hope that they will become technically gifted at a later age. This simply does not happen and it's one of the problems with US soccer that is holding back our youth development.

Original post from DougieB11

Dolcem u r making my arguement for me. The few 16and 17 yr old who break into their first teams either become world class or flops. But their entire life is devoted to soccer because the join the academies at 7-9 and then do nothing but play soccer. The clubs do provide basic schooling, but they still control what info these kids are getting.
If mls and the academies ever get close to that point. Then we will start turning out pro caliber players from 15-19. Until then we have to accept the system that we have in which academy kids still have to go to school and only have game/travel expenses paid by clubs.
Most of these guys dont break into their first team until 19-20 and even fewer become full starters or stars until 21 at the earliest... So while domestically our guys are a bit behind, the guys overseas are right on track and more will joing them in the next two years. Yes Gatt plays in norway but he plays for the best team who constantpy get champions and europa league action. The argument over his injury history while valid looks to be a thing of the past as he has seen nutritionists, specialists and therapists to learn how to better manage his body and early returns are positve.
I will be shocked if he doesnt become one of the stars of the future and maybe even the present.


As far as Gatt goes, why would you be "shocked" if he doesn't become one of the stars of the future? What is your evidence that he will be a great player? He is 22. How much attention is he getting from European clubs outside of Norway? His form has dipped recently. The only point I'm making is that "stars" are usually found out by about 22. As you said, the guys overseas are on a faster track than the MLS guys (which is why some late bloomers play in the MLS and eventually become stars when they move, like Dempsey). Gatt has been overseas for awhile and hasn't made it out of Norway by 22. He also doesn't seem to be the late bloomer type: he has pace and that is it. I really hope I'm wrong but if you can find me one other player (attacking player, they peak earlier) who, after spending a few years in Norway, left at 22 and turned into a quality player.

Original post from MSantoine

What wingers do we have playing in top european leagues?


None. It is a sad situation. Since it's our weakest position, IMO we should just not use any. Do a 4-4-2 diamond with CM's. The same one we used in our loss to Jamaica. Klinsmann made a mistake with that one though and lined up 3 DM's behind Dempsey. Not a good idea. Here's what I'd like to see:

Gomez Altidore
Dempsey
Creative CM (Torres, Klejstan, Diskerud) Destroyer DM (Jones, Williams, etc.) Box-to-box (Bradley, Jones, etc.)
Johnson Cameron Bocanegra Chandler
Howard

IMO the ideal 3 behind Dempsey would be Torres, Jones, and Bradley. I know people hate Torres but as I've said before, he didn't do well for us because he was played out of position. Simply play him in his position, as a deep-lying playmaker, and he'll be great for us. If not, Klejstan or Diskerud would work as well.

If we insist on playing the 4-3-3, we could use the same players put Gomez and Dempsey on the wings with Altidore in the middle. I can't see us using a 4-5-1 though because I don't like the pairing of Bradley and Jones (or Williams) behind all those attacking players. Not to mention it means starting someone like Gatt or Pontius or Zusi. Hopefully one of those guys proves me wrong but I just don't see them as international caliber.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #37
Thursday January 3, 2013 8:54am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 279
dolcem said, "As far as what you said about technique, it is just completely wrong. You don't make serious improvements as far as skill goes after your teens. Little tweaks here and there but nothing more".

I hate to say this dolcem but you sound ignorant. You can make serious improvement to any skill at any point in your life. It takes more time the older you get but the brain never shuts down its ability to build neuro connections. This is proven science so not sure where your getting your information from. If your giving your opinion thats ok but its just your opininon, not fact.

We have not yet produced a player the caliber of Forlan, Cavani, Suarez. We may have more registered youth players than the population of Uganda now, but how about the early 90's? Soccer is still growing give our system time to develop.

dolcem
Post #38
Thursday January 3, 2013 3:15pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from Kamphgruppe

dolcem said, "As far as what you said about technique, it is just completely wrong. You don't make serious improvements as far as skill goes after your teens. Little tweaks here and there but nothing more".

I hate to say this dolcem but you sound ignorant. You can make serious improvement to any skill at any point in your life. It takes more time the older you get but the brain never shuts down its ability to build neuro connections. This is proven science so not sure where your getting your information from. If your giving your opinion thats ok but its just your opininon, not fact.

We have not yet produced a player the caliber of Forlan, Cavani, Suarez. We may have more registered youth players than the population of Uganda now, but how about the early 90's? Soccer is still growing give our system time to develop.


And you sound like you don't know anything about the sport of soccer.

You bring up brain research that demonstrates that you can improve at any skill in life throughout your twenties thanks to new neural connections. Of course you can continue to improve at soccer in your twenties. Your decision-making, vision, awareness, intelligence, all improve significantly during that time. Your pace, touch, dribbling, and general technical abilities, however, have pretty much peaked by the time you are twenty. The elite players have had a ball at their feet constantly since the time they could walk. They won't make significant improvements in that area in their twenties.

This is common knowledge of any coach or fan of the game. Why do you think they have the academy system in Europe? Why do soccer players start playing professionally at the age of 16? Soccer players develop much, much earlier than the athletes of other sports. By the time they are 22 there isn't a whole lot of room for improvement (of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority of great players were well-known by that age or at least demonstrated world-class potential). They need to be exposed to top-flight soccer at a very young age if they are to develop into great players. As I said before, please name me one player who had a poor touch at the age of 20 and then suddenly became a very skilled player in his 20's. It just doesn't happen. Only in America do you get people who assume soccer is like gridiron where you can bring in someone who, at the age of 22, is unskilled but has great size and athleticism, and teach them to play the game well.

We are improving in soccer but that doesn't change the fact that we are obviously held back. With the amount of resources we have and the amount of people playing the game we should be better. Our professional league has been around for 16+ years now. And the game is much, much more widely played and watched than it was in the early 90's. Yet for some reason we haven't seen any great young talent come in through the ranks. Guys like Reyna, Ramos, O'Brien, Keller, Friedel, became great players even before soccer was taken seriously in this country, before we even had a professional league, much less academies and competent coaches. Since the sport has gotten exponentially more popular and we've had a league for almost a generation now, we should start seeing much better and better players all the time. Guys like Reyna and Friedel should be the norm at this point. Yet the only really talented youth we have seen since then are Howard, Donovan, and Dempsey and that was years ago. Altidore and Bradley more recently and don't get me wrong, they are good, but they should be a dime a dozen by this point. We should be expecting the occasional world class player by now, and it seems we're not close to that yet.

There are a few reasons for this, a lot of them are out of our control (the pay-to-play system, the size of our country, the fact that huge portions of our population don't play it, including a lot of our best athletes, etc.) but one of the big things holding us back is the way we look at the game of soccer. We think it's like gridiron or basketball. All our coaches look for is size and athleticism. You can't teach speed, they say, and the small but technically gifted player will be overlooked in favor of someone who is 6'0" and fast but can't trap a ball to save his life. We think soccer is like American sports, where player development happens much later, and the key is to choose players based on size and athleticism and hope they develop technically later. This is just completely wrong. You can't draft some really athletic guy at 22 and teach him to dribble or cross the ball. You have it at that age or you don't. Luckily the MLS leadership is starting to get this and we are seeing the development of an academy system that will enable players to go pro at a young age when they are still young enough to make leaps and bounds in their development. Until these players make up the bulk of the MLS, we will have a mediocre league.

And part of this is that we will continue to be mediocre if we continue to not understand the game and think of it like we think of American sports. The answer is staring us right in the face. Arguably the best club team in history, Barcelona, and arguably the best national side in history, Spain, is full of players who never would have made it in the American system because they would be considered too small and too slow to have decent potential.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
SoccerRyan
Dallas Texas
Post #39
Thursday January 3, 2013 5:22pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 44
Dolcem how about Gatt's coach Ole Gunnar Solskjær. He was from the Norwegian league (molde) and was nearly 24 before he moved to Manchester United. So there you go there's your one attacking player from a Scandinavian league who was over 22 that moved on to bigger and better things. And that was just the first and most obvious person off the top of my head. Imagine how many others there are.

dolcem
Post #40
Friday January 4, 2013 1:54am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from SoccerRyan

Dolcem how about Gatt's coach Ole Gunnar Solskjær. He was from the Norwegian league (molde) and was nearly 24 before he moved to Manchester United. So there you go there's your one attacking player from a Scandinavian league who was over 22 that moved on to bigger and better things. And that was just the first and most obvious person off the top of my head. Imagine how many others there are.


Point taken. This was in a different era, however, when the gap between the leagues wasn't as big. But much more importantly, I think he must be the exception to the rule. Can you name any others?
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
MSantoine
Post #41
Friday January 4, 2013 4:02am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,187
John Carew is 4th leading scorer all time for norway. He played for Rosenberg as a 21 year old then moved on to Valencia, Roma, and other top clubs in early 2000's. Brade Hangeland was a 24 year old at Viking and is now captain of Fulham and Norways natioanl team. Thats just looking at Norway nationals, nevermind other countries

SoccerRyan
Dallas Texas
Post #42
Friday January 4, 2013 6:41am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 44
Original post from dolcem

Point taken. This was in a different era, however, when the gap between the leagues wasn't as big. But much more importantly, I think he must be the exception to the rule. Can you name any others?


Henrik Larsson- hellsinsborg until he was 23
Zlatan Ibrahimović- Malmo until 22
Plus it all depends on what you consider inferior.
But let me get this straight Dolcem so I can understand. You're saying Donavan, Dempsey, Ole Gunnar, plus the Norwegian players the other guy mentioned, plus those two i added (if you consider the swedish league inferior, which you should based on what you were saying) are exceptions to the rule? I don't think that term applies anymore to this discussion when we now have a list of them. Plus half of them are in this "era".
Let me put the Gatt situation another way to you. How many European based players EVER have we had getting regular minutes on a team winning their league at 22? I believe that is what we call an exception to the rule.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #43
Saturday January 5, 2013 8:32am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 279
Dolcem said, "And you sound like you don't know anything about the sport of soccer".
Not really, I proved that what you was said was incorrect and you make another silly statement. What you really should have said is that Dolcem thinks he knows everything about soccer

"This is common knowledge of any coach or fan of the game".
Funny, I am a fan and a coach, and I don't believe that crap. Remember that is was common knowledge that the earth was flat once too.

admsghs27
Post #44
Saturday January 5, 2013 8:45am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,181
I know this post has a ? Mark... But pleaseee dont predict a wc roster if we havent qualifued... We struggled the past round... I dont see usa walking by teams... Honestly im a die hard usa fan... But i predict we will finish 3rd if not 4rth... Hopedully im wrong,, but i dont think in 1 yr we will dramatically improve.. i wouldnt be shocked if we lose at honduras by 3 or 4 goals... And lose 2 home games during qualifiers... Because every.game under klissman we looked terrible... Except against scotland which is the worsest team usa played.... But at the end of the day i know usa will qualify.. idk if it will be 4rt qualifying vs ocenia or third... But i hope were in the top 2.... So please dint predict a 23 for brazil just yet.... I saw a similar post of a roster for the olympics and we dint qualify.. and same for the past sub 20 world cup and no luck there.. anything is possible so save it til we qualify....

rainORshine
Post #45
Saturday January 5, 2013 9:06pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
locks (11):
GK: howard, guzan
D: cameron, dolo, f. johnson
M: bradley, donovan, jones
F: altidore, boyd, dempsey

most likely (8):
D: boca, castillo, chandler, gonzo
M: kljestan, williams, zusi
F: e. johnson

for now (3): goodson, gomez, pontius
dont care (1): 3rd GK

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