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rainORshine
Post #31
Thursday April 18, 2013 8:47pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from dolcem

And who is he supposed to put on the wing? We have no options until Donovan comes back or Shea recovers form and fitness (and gets PT at his new club).


why do ask this as if you have not read the answer 1000 times:

his OPTIONS are to use a DIFFERENT set-up

i got it, you think JK is making awesome decisions. obviously i think you and him are wrong

rainORshine
Post #32
Thursday April 18, 2013 8:50pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from richieJkulesaNY

You do realize it matters who players "x" are....

I assume you mean kljestan, jones, and bradley, in which case my argument doesnt change.


well you should be a happy camper. i am sure we will get more of the 4-4-1-1 in may/june - i guess with some combo of donovan, zusi, gomez, beasley on the wings

we will see then if it really is a good idea,,,

dolcem
Post #33
Friday April 19, 2013 8:41am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from Know Nothing

I am curious, why do you think Dempsey so important to the team that he is untouchable? I know he has had great success, but we do have other capable players at his position as well, or perhaps can fashion a formation which allows for a better integrated team than to allow a free role for Dempsey.


Because he is our best field player and we don't have any other capable players at his position. IMO he needs to start. But you're quibbling over the details, my point was that few, if any, players on this team are untouchable, especially Klejstan.

Original post from rainORshine

unforgivable that in all his "experimenting" he has not given a single start to kljestan. i am not saying he should have started all 25


Yet a lot of us don't rate him at all. I think Torres is better and maybe even Diskerud (haven't seen him play enough to make that call) or Feilhaber (when in form). I've never thought Klejstan was any good at all. His play in the MLS and the USNT never impressed me. Has he improved a lot the past season or two? Maybe. But you can't get call for the coach's head because you have one favorite that the coach (and fans) doesn't rate much and decides not to play.

Original post from rainORshine

why do ask this as if you have not read the answer 1000 times:

his OPTIONS are to use a DIFFERENT set-up

i got it, you think JK is making awesome decisions. obviously i think you and him are wrong


He did use a different setup. He used the 4-4-2 diamond with CM's, very similar to your 3-5-2. I think he decided that the lack of width was a problem (and many fans agree). It looks like Klinsmann is banking on us having better options by 2014 (Donovan, and possibly Shea, Adu, Corona, or even Gatt or Gyau) so in the mean time he is getting us used to the 4-5-1. That way it'll be an easier transition. But again we're speculating here, maybe he'll switch back to the 4-4-2 diamond, or maybe he'll try a 3-5-2. The fact is that it is way too early to be evaluating him for these kinds of decisions. We have more than a year before the World Cup and he's supposed to be experimenting. At some point you have to let the manager do his thing rather than play armchair coach and call for the manager's head because he doesn't use your favorite formation or player. ESPECIALLY when that manager is way more qualified than anyone else we have available to us (and more loyal and familiar with our system than the other more qualified candidates that do exist, even if they decided to manage the US).
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #34
Friday April 19, 2013 4:36pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from dolcem

Yet a lot of us don't rate him at all. I think Torres is better and maybe even Diskerud (haven't seen him play enough to make that call) or Feilhaber (when in form). I've never thought Klejstan was any good at all. His play in the MLS and the USNT never impressed me. Has he improved a lot the past season or two? Maybe. But you can't get call for the coach's head because you have one favorite that the coach (and fans) doesn't rate much and decides not to play.

.


anyone who does not rate kljestan as (easily) a top 20 US player is complete fool.
all top 20 players should have been given a few starts by now. kljestan is the only one who has not. the fact that kljestan gets called into to every camp confirms even klinsmann rates him in his top 20.

Bradley gave him 18 starts BEFORE his success in belgium

Resume
- drafted MLS #5 overall at 20 y/o
- ROY candidate
- starting CM for successful 08 olympic team
- MLS best 11 by 23 y/o
- 18 starts for USMNT by the time he was 25
SINCE LAST START:
- regular in europa league, champions league and about to win 2nd consecutive belgian title and qualify for champions league group stage
- leads all non-MLS players in assists this season

if SK not staring a single game is not frustrating to you, you are admitting you dont really pay much attention

kljestan is the best player currently aged 26-29
kljestan is best goal-creating CM of this generation (post reyna)

your clearly demonstrated inability to objectively absorb any critique of klinsmann renders you long-winded retorts sadly devoid of any real value

but go for it. again,,,

richieJkulesaNY
Post #35
Friday April 19, 2013 4:59pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 942
Original post from rainORshine

well you should be a happy camper. i am sure we will get more of the 4-4-1-1 in may/june - i guess with some combo of donovan, zusi, gomez, beasley on the wings

we will see then if it really is a good idea,,,


Its not about me being happy, its what I think is best for this team right now. We dont have the the CBs to pull of a 3-5-2. We dont possess the ball well enough, either. I understand you want Fab and Chandler to support the attack, and that can still happen in a 4-2-3-1, or any formation to be honest. We need the flanks in order to possess the ball because we cant keep it centrally.

Look, im with you when it comes to Kljestan. IMO, I think he's the 3rd best CM we have. I wouldnt mind any 2 man combo between Bradley, Jones, and Kljestan.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #36
Friday April 19, 2013 5:44pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,020
No Kljestan is not the best goal creating CM post Reyna. That distinction lies with Bradley.

Here are the stats for you for the USMNT:

Kljestan: Goals- 4, Assists- 0

Bradley: Goals- 11, Assists- 3

And here are the stats for their respective clubs:

Bradley has 2 assists for Roma this season.

Kljestan 2 assists for Anderlecht this season.

204 appearances for Anderlecht and Chivas USA Kljestan has scored: 23 goals

193 appearances for Heernveen, Monchengladbach, Aston Villa, Chievo, and Roma Bradley has scored: 28 goals.

Granted Kljestan had a lot of assists when with Chivas USA, but since moving to Belgium and against stronger opposition Kljestan's assist totals have declined significantly.

Since Joining Anderlecht according to ESPN Kljestan has only 4 assists in all competitions.

Since Bradley joined Monchengladbach and subsequent clubs in the top three leagues in the world Bradley has had 8 assists in all competitions.

From these stats Bradley is the better goal creating/goal scoring CM.

These stats can be seen on ESPN bio, or their Wiki page.

And really neither are very good at creating goals according to these stats.

dolcem
Post #37
Friday April 19, 2013 5:47pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from rainORshine

Bradley gave him 18 starts BEFORE his success in belgium



Yeah, that's my point.

Klejstan has never played well with the NT. And hasn't exactly done anything great at the club level (plays in Belgium).

He probably has improved a lot the past two years and probably deserves some PT at some point. He's probably a top 20 player for us now. But he's not good enough to warrant a freak-out if he doesn't start.

But you're more hyped about him than anyone. That's fine if you have a player you really like, I really rate J.F. Torres. I'm annoyed Klinsmann never really tried him as a CM (think he would have played really well there under our system). But I don't think my opinion on one player is so valuable that I call for the coach's head if he doesn't play that guy. Especially if that coach is much more qualified than everyone else available.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
rainORshine
Post #38
Friday April 19, 2013 9:17pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from dolcem

Yeah, that's my point.

Klejstan has never played well with the NT. And hasn't exactly done anything great at the club level (plays in Belgium).

He probably has improved a lot the past two years and probably deserves some PT at some point. He's probably a top 20 player for us now. But he's not good enough to warrant a freak-out if he doesn't start.

But you're more hyped about him than anyone. That's fine if you have a player you really like, I really rate J.F. Torres. I'm annoyed Klinsmann never really tried him as a CM (think he would have played really well there under our system). But I don't think my opinion on one player is so valuable that I call for the coach's head if he doesn't play that guy. Especially if that coach is much more qualified than everyone else available.


i think kljestan and JFT are about a pick-em - different characteristics but both offer something that none of the others CMs possess - a bit of finesse and polish that even bradley and jones but definitely edu, williams and beckerman lack. I like kljestans proven ability to directly contribute offensively. but JFT is also a classy player.

heres the rub - JK has given JFT 9 starts. yes, i agree, almost all of them out of position, but he has given him opportunities. so, yes, i am "freaked out" that, given the success he has had in europe and throughout his career, SK has not been given at least a few opportunities

i really think it is a (coaching) crime and thats just how i feel

rainORshine
Post #39
Friday April 19, 2013 9:54pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
to my knowledge bradley has never contributed more than 3 assists in a single club season and did that only once (10/11 with gladbach) going all the way back to days with NY. I have him (very unofficially) at 8 for his career. lets assume a handful are missing

Jones, in league play, has a somewhat accurate 14 for his club career, with a career high 6 coming this season.

SK has topped 6 four times in his career, including this season, and is EASILY the most prolific at club level, approaching 50 for career (ive got him at 48). yes, its not bundesliga 50, but can we say you dont really qualify for being much of a playmaker until you hit, say, 20 career club assists, wherever you play?

USMNT has (under BB) and will continue to struggle offensively while refusing to play actual playmakers in CM. just not possible to create consistent attack or dictate tempo with a bradley/jones midfield. not possible

watch in may/june as it continues to not happen

rainORshine
Post #40
Saturday April 20, 2013 12:58am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
Original post from rainORshine

to my knowledge bradley has never contributed more than 3 assists in a single club season and did that only once (10/11 with gladbach) going all the way back to days with NY. I have him (very unofficially) at 8 for his career. lets assume a handful are missing

Jones, in league play, has a somewhat accurate 14 for his club career, with a career high 6 coming this season.

SK has topped 6 four times in his career, including this season, and is EASILY the most prolific at club level, approaching 50 for career (ive got him at 48). yes, its not bundesliga 50, but can we say you dont really qualify for being much of a playmaker until you hit, say, 20 career club assists, wherever you play?

USMNT has (under BB) and will continue to struggle offensively while refusing to play actual playmakers in CM. just not possible to create consistent attack or dictate tempo with a bradley/jones midfield. not possible

watch in may/june as it continues to not happen


ok bradley had 4 assists in his season with NY, so thats 12, and we dont know about his 2 season at heerenveen - lets assume a bunch. but since going to germany in 08/09 8 in almost 5 seasons. point being that he has not really been asked to fill that role since going to germany,,,

rainORshine
Post #41
Saturday April 20, 2013 6:13am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,773
must read for all who want to understand what bradley brings and why a bradley / jones 4-4-2 midfield likely will not work very well

http://www.chiesaditotti.com/2013/1/24/391265...

basically explains that bradley is a very good box-to-box MF who loses purpose / quality as he enters the final third. last paragraph sums it up

"Bradley is not a franchise player; he has a valuable, albeit hard to qualify skill set that all teams require. He will rarely be the reason Roma win, but he'll seldom be the reason they lose."

i think a very similar article could be written about bradley with USMNT and about j. jones

adding a 3rd CM and moving away from 4-4-2 is answer not because kljestan (or someone else) is a savior but because:
1) kljestan (maybe someone else) does offer an element of creation
2) adding a third CM means another dedicated attacker in 4-3-3, or wing-backs in 5-3-2

and what is the deal with bagging on the belgian league? heres how it stacks up in europe, according to UEFA:

2 - england
3 - germany
4 - italy
9 - netherlands (jozy)
10 - belgium
11 - turkey (edu)
15 - denmark
16 - austria (boyd)
27 - norway (diskerud, gatt)

anderlecht is 4th highest ranked team in europe with an american:
15 - schalke (jones)
24 - tottenham (dempsey)
43 - roma (bradley)
50 - anderlecht (kljestan)

oh, and 2 of kljestan's assists (which equals bradley's entire season total) this season came in the games he played in champions league group stage - which negates the argument that he cant do it against better competition

if anyone thinks we are past the point of needing to use a guy with a resume like kljestan's - think again

Bshredder
Post #42
Saturday April 20, 2013 1:48pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Kljestan has never played his natural role for the usmnt. He's a good player on a very good Anderlecht team. He plays the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 and the other 2 is Lucas Biglia - an Argentine international.

In terms of American field players he's top 10 in terms of accomplishments

I'm pretty much over trying to use a player's USMNT performances as a way to judge his quality. The team is a mess and almost no one is playing as well for the US team as they are with their clubs (Altidore, Gomez, Chandler, Johnson, Kljestan, Torres, Bradley, Jones, Zusi, Wondolowski). Pretty much the only player under JK that is playing up to his potential under JK is Dolo.

DaBurgh
Pittsburgh Pa
Post #43
Saturday April 20, 2013 2:31pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 77
With kljestan having a great year and donovan coming back into the picture, I wouldn't mind if jk tried the 4-3-3 again.

Dempsy.....Altidore......Donovan
Bradley......kljestan.....Jones

Mojofc
Post #44
Saturday April 20, 2013 3:11pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 680
Rain.... why are we using an article and stating his opinion as basically fact about Michael Bradley?

The guy over and over again in the article speaks about the sample size he is using is extremely small.

By simply stating poor assist totals per season, you could also say Michael Carrick is a worthless player as well.

Michael Bradley plays for Roma, Kljestan does not and no way he would make the lineup if he was in their squad. 1

Kljestan has only had a few good games in a US uniform and those games fell into his hands. He dominated in the Sweden friendly, and what was that game to Sweden? Their players were walking all over the field and literally sitting back showing ZERO pressure. We know Kljestan plays very well when he isn't pressured by international speed, that's a fact. When he is pressured at that level, all I ever see him do is turn into 'Edu'. He panics and rushes a pass and loses possession. Club stats don't necessarily relate to international ability.. Opinion goes heavily into players and I don't believe anything can doubt Kljestan has issues when he's pressured on the ball.

Bashing Bradley is ridiculous. Give Kljestan a start? I'm not 100% against it, but to say anything negative about MB while praising Kljestan is a bit much. Especially using some article where the guy over and over again says the sample size he is using is sort of comical.

I could write an aritical about Kljestan while playing for the USA against teams that pressure heavily. I could make Kljestan look very poor, but I won't because we all know his downfall. At least what used to be his downfall.. can he change? Sure he can.

We always speak of how our midfield is 'stacked'. Our midfield depth is stacked... our midfield quality is pretty mediocre. MB is the one consistent at that position. Not only can we rely on MB passing to another American on a regular basis unlike most of our players, we see MB constantly giving players a passing option. He is always on the run to give people options. No one else on the team does this or has his motor.

Meh.. we've gone over this before.

Claim Kljestan is better than MB because of assists over and over again. Guess Michael Carrick is worthless as well. Useless stat when we're talking about different leagues and type of players.

Use your eyes for actual judgement and possibly you can use stats to back them. Not the other way around.

Happy Saturday people.
Rain, rain, go away Come again another day - USMNT, MUFC
Bshredder
Post #45
Saturday April 20, 2013 3:48pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
A few points

If Kljestan can play well in the champions league, he can cut it in the international level.

Kljestan isn't better than Bradley but he's a good player

Club play is far more accurate in determining a player's quality than international play. This is especially true for the US team where almost everyone is playing better for their clubs

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