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bjelks
Post #316
Tuesday November 27, 2018 5:51pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

Not sure where you are getting this from, but in no way is that the case. The issue is that Jozy (unfortunately) is still one of our best strikers - regardless of where he or anyone else plays club. And until someone else (other than Wood) can actually come along and prove that otherwise, he should still be in the conversation with respect to the pool.

Also, I would not exactly agree that Wood is better. There is definitely an argument to be made for each of them, but it comes down to 3 things:
- The players around them in the team who can provide service
- The formations/style of play of the team
- The position and role that they play

Both have different skillsets and bring different things to the table. Depending on what those 3 points are will determine who would be better suited/a better option to run up front.

If you want to sit back, defend, and kick long balls over the top to try and have your forward run 1 on 1/have breakaways in open space? Wood is likely the better option.

If you want a hold up guy to keep possession, slow down play to get players forward, and earn fouls around the box? Jozy is likely your better option for that.


How does someone prove to be better than Jozy in your opinion?
Do they earn regular minutes in a better league?
Do they earn regular minutes in a better club?
Do they earn regular minutes and score more goals in a better league or club than Jozy has?
Do they score more difficult goals more consistently?

How does a striker prove that he's better than a 30 yr old striker in a 3rd tier league that is not among the top 20 strikers in the league for the current campaign or top 10 in the previous ?
goalsense
bjelks
Post #317
Tuesday November 27, 2018 5:54pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

Find one quote from one reputable soccer figure who has made this claim with respect to Wood vs Jozy.

Also, find one reputable soccer figure who has publicly said that Jozy is no longer one of our top forwards? I am not saying THE best, but ONE OF the best. And I'm not talking about some random person/armchair analyst on an internet website. Brian Dunseth, Taylor Twellman, John Harkes, Stuart Holden, Alexi Lalas, Grant Wahl, Tony Meola, etc. Someone who is actually known, a former player or manager, someone who knows what they are talking about.

Seriously, if everyone in the world thinks he is so bad, then this should be an easy task. Put up or shut up.


You want me to find a former mls player that will admit that a current washed up mls player that could never cut it in a top league is no longer a top striker in the pool? Bahahahaha I
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #318
Tuesday November 27, 2018 9:14pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

I would think the fact the powers that be at the USSF, the ones you seem so keen to defend as knowing what they are doing, are saying that due to the lack of callups he has gotten recently. In fact, you can argue that the USSF says this because they keep calling up a RESERVE instead of him!

And given how your arguments have gone in the past, you would simply dismiss any name we brought forward as lacking in their understanding of the American player.
It was made clear by the powers that be in the USSF that both Bradley and Jozy are still in the picture moving forward. They made it a point to look at younger talent during this past year while we had no competitive games. Also, Jozy has been injured and was actually called in to one of the camps but had to pull out.

Before assuming that I would dismiss any name, why don't we start with a reputable name, ANY reputable name - not some random guy or random article on the internet. Instead of deflecting, produce proof of what you guys are saying. Again, if everyone in the world with the exceptions of MLS homers feel this way, it should be an easy task.

Lilshmike
Post #319
Tuesday November 27, 2018 9:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from bjelks

How does someone prove to be better than Jozy in your opinion?
Do they earn regular minutes in a better league?
Do they earn regular minutes in a better club?
Do they earn regular minutes and score more goals in a better league or club than Jozy has?
Do they score more difficult goals more consistently?

How does a striker prove that he's better than a 30 yr old striker in a 3rd tier league that is not among the top 20 strikers in the league for the current campaign or top 10 in the previous ?
Simple, they have to be playing first team football in a league as good or better than MLS and be producing goals. I have always held this stance. Fact check me if you want.

The only person who anyone can make a legitimate argument against Jozy at the moment is Bobby Wood. Thats realistically it.

- Novakovich isn't there yet, and I doubt many people would go out of their way to say he is better
- Sabbi isn't there yet
- Dom Dwyer could have an argument
- Siebatcheu isn't playing much, nor has he even said he would play for us yet
- People can think of Weah as a striker, but up to this point hes been a winger and he still is doing nothing more than sitting on the bench
- Sargent hasn't even made the bench and has yet to play an official senior level game
- Bjorn Maars Johnsen could have legitimately been, but we never called him up and now he plays for Norway

Really, genuinely, truly, we don't have any other legitimate options yet. We have some seemingly talented youth players, but until they can prove that they are capable of playing considerably for the first team at their clubs - in a league as good or better than MLS - then they are nothing more then talented youth prospects and cannot IMO be legitimately considered in the debate.

I have always said, and will continue to say, that I think Johannsson is the best ST in our pool and has been since he switched from Iceland; however, he is constantly injured and hasn't played regular first team minutes in almost 2 years. As skilled as he may be, IMO this disqualifies him from the conversation until he gets healthy and starts playing.

Disagree if you want, but this has nothing to do with MLS. I am not defending MLS in my assessment of Jozy. MLS is a non-factor in this debate other than the benchmark for the BARE MINIMUM in league quality that we want members of our national team playing in.

But instead of consistently deflecting - produce proof from a reputable source who says that Jozy is not still one of the top STs in the USMNT pool.

Lilshmike
Post #320
Tuesday November 27, 2018 9:44pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from bjelks

You want me to find a former mls player that will admit that a current washed up mls player that could never cut it in a top league is no longer a top striker in the pool? Bahahahaha I
Again, you're deflecting.

Here, Stu Holden. He is a fairly reputable source and, considering hes a commentator now, has likely watched a lot more of the US pool than we have.

https://twitter.com/stuholden/status/10382690...

I'm still waiting on you to produce. Again, if everyone in the world thinks the same way you do, then this should be easy.

Know Nothing
Post #321
Tuesday November 27, 2018 9:57pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Lilshmike

It was made clear by the powers that be in the USSF that both Bradley and Jozy are still in the picture moving forward. They made it a point to look at younger talent during this past year while we had no competitive games. Also, Jozy has been injured and was actually called in to one of the camps but had to pull out.

Before assuming that I would dismiss any name, why don't we start with a reputable name, ANY reputable name - not some random guy or random article on the internet. Instead of deflecting, produce proof of what you guys are saying. Again, if everyone in the world with the exceptions of MLS homers feel this way, it should be an easy task.


How about his peers?

https://torontoreds.com/2016/03/22/jozy-altid...

Lilshmike
Post #322
Tuesday November 27, 2018 10:17pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

How about his peers?

https://torontoreds.com/2016/03/22/jozy-altid...
Yeah, thats fair to say hes overrated. I follow the player surveys every year. Dax McCarty has been voted the most underrated player in the league - does that mean he is secretly one of our best CDMs? No. Dempsey and Jones were rated to be the most hated (and rightly so they were both pricks when they came to MLS) - but does that mean that nobody wants them on their team? No.

Look at his salary compared to others in the league who produce more goals. I tend to agree that he is a bit overrated in that respect. In the amount of media coverage he gets compared to others too. However, saying he is overrated is not the same as saying he isn't one of the best STs in the pool - which is the debate here. So unfortunately, the results of that survey still don't provide sufficient evidence for it.

And to bring that back to the point about this not being a debate about MLS or homer fanboys - if it was, I would be calling for Zardes to be in the picture. I'm not. If I was a fanboy, I would be calling for Wondo and Bunbury and Picault to be in the conversation as one of the best in our pool based on their MLS output. I am not.

bjelks
Post #323
Tuesday November 27, 2018 10:25pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

Again, you're deflecting.

Here, Stu Holden. He is a fairly reputable source and, considering hes a commentator now, has likely watched a lot more of the US pool than we have.

https://twitter.com/stuholden/status/10382690...

I'm still waiting on you to produce. Again, if everyone in the world thinks the same way you do, then this should be easy.


Again you're trying to justify your fanboying by more fanboying lol. I don't care what mls players, coaches, are staff think. It's laughable that you consider them reputable in evaluating anything regarding world football.
What does Zidane, Henry, Mourinho, Deschamps think? Give me the opinion of someone who has won at the highest level.
Stop telling me the biased opinions of ppl that benefit from this broken system.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #324
Tuesday November 27, 2018 10:47pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from bjelks

Again you're trying to justify your fanboying by more fanboying lol. I don't care what mls players, coaches, are staff think. It's laughable that you consider them reputable in evaluating anything regarding world football.
What does Zidane, Henry, Mourinho, Deschamps think? Give me the opinion of someone who has won at the highest level.
Stop telling me the biased opinions of ppl that benefit from this broken system.
Stu Holden... the former USMNT player, EPL player, 2011 Bolton player of the year when they were a top 10 side in the Prem, and current Fox soccer commentator is not a reputable source and is a fanboy?

You have yet to produce anything and consistently deflect. At least I have brought something to the table. Put up or shut up.

bjelks
Post #325
Tuesday November 27, 2018 10:58pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

Simple, they have to be playing first team football in a league as good or better than MLS and be producing goals. I have always held this stance. Fact check me if you want.

The only person who anyone can make a legitimate argument against Jozy at the moment is Bobby Wood. Thats realistically it.

- Novakovich isn't there yet, and I doubt many people would go out of their way to say he is better
- Sabbi isn't there yet
- Dom Dwyer could have an argument
- Siebatcheu isn't playing much, nor has he even said he would play for us yet
- People can think of Weah as a striker, but up to this point hes been a winger and he still is doing nothing more than sitting on the bench
- Sargent hasn't even made the bench and has yet to play an official senior level game
- Bjorn Maars Johnsen could have legitimately been, but we never called him up and now he plays for Norway

Really, genuinely, truly, we don't have any other legitimate options yet. We have some seemingly talented youth players, but until they can prove that they are capable of playing considerably for the first team at their clubs - in a league as good or better than MLS - then they are nothing more then talented youth prospects and cannot IMO be legitimately considered in the debate.

I have always said, and will continue to say, that I think Johannsson is the best ST in our pool and has been since he switched from Iceland; however, he is constantly injured and hasn't played regular first team minutes in almost 2 years. As skilled as he may be, IMO this disqualifies him from the conversation until he gets healthy and starts playing.

Disagree if you want, but this has nothing to do with MLS. I am not defending MLS in my assessment of Jozy. MLS is a non-factor in this debate other than the benchmark for the BARE MINIMUM in league quality that we want members of our national team playing in.

But instead of consistently deflecting - produce proof from a reputable source who says that Jozy is not still one of the top STs in the USMNT pool.


Why do you want me to produce "proof" when all you do is tell us whatever USSF and MLS say and do is gospel lol?

Present proof that someone reputable that is not of the American system believes mls is even on par with Eredivisie. When is the last time jozy scored against a side of PSV quality?

PSG thinks of Weah as a striker and they're very reputable.

Jozy made his La Liga debut at 19 and struggled for mins in a yr and a half.
Made his premier league debut at 20. Was a bust.
Jozy became a productive player in a 2nd tier league at 22.
Jozy was a good player in holland 5 yrs ago. Since then, he's been a bust in a steady regression.

You're telling me Sargeant has to do what Jozy didn't do until 22 at 18 to be better?
Mind you, jozy had to step down in competition to play and score regularly.
That's not logical.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #326
Tuesday November 27, 2018 11:06pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

Stu Holden... the former USMNT player, EPL player, 2011 Bolton player of the year when they were a top 10 side in the Prem, and current Fox soccer commentator is not a reputable source and is a fanboy?

You have yet to produce anything and consistently deflect. At least I have brought something to the table. Put up or shut up.


Stu is a great guy but has played with Jozy and primarily calls MLS games lol
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #327
Tuesday November 27, 2018 11:09pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from bjelks

Why do you want me to produce "proof" when all you do is tell us whatever USSF and MLS say and do is gospel lol?

Present proof that someone reputable that is not of the American system believes mls is even on par with Eredivisie. When is the last time jozy scored against a side of PSV quality?

PSG thinks of Weah as a striker and they're very reputable.

Jozy made his La Liga debut at 19 and struggled for mins in a yr and a half.
Made his premier league debut at 20. Was a bust.
Jozy became a productive player in a 2nd tier league at 22.
Jozy was a good player in holland 5 yrs ago. Since then, he's been a bust in a steady regression.

You're telling me Sargeant has to do what Jozy didn't do until 22 at 18 to be better?
Mind you, jozy had to step down in competition to play and score regularly.
That's not logical.
Again, you're deflecting.

What are you talking about - MLS vs Eredivisie? That was never even part of this topic, so why are you bringing it up?

Also, please reference a post where I am praising MLS and claiming that what they say and do is gospel. Where I am telling you whatever USSF says. Seriously dude, you're spewing complete and utter crap and trying to put words in my mouth that just aren't true.

I've consistently stated my stance on the matter. Sargent has to break into the Bremen first team, or go out on loan and get first team minutes in a league as good or better than MLS - not the 4th-5th division in Germany. In no way should that be controversial, and it is extremely logical.

bjelks
Post #328
Tuesday November 27, 2018 11:34pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

Again, you're deflecting.

What are you talking about - MLS vs Eredivisie? That was never even part of this topic, so why are you bringing it up?

Also, please reference a post where I am praising MLS and claiming that what they say and do is gospel. Where I am telling you whatever USSF says. Seriously dude, you're spewing complete and utter crap and trying to put words in my mouth that just aren't true.

I've consistently stated my stance on the matter. Sargent has to break into the Bremen first team, or go out on loan and get first team minutes in a league as good or better than MLS - not the 4th-5th division in Germany. In no way should that be controversial, and it is extremely logical.


You said you have to be in a better league playing consistently and scoring to be better than Jozy.
Nova plays in a better league than Jozy, playing regularly and scoring goals and he's 7 yrs younger.
If you think Eredivisie isn't a better league than MLS you're fanboying.

You said in order for Sargent to earn a call up he must play in a league as good as MLS. MLS is a 3rd tier league. He's playing in the 4th tier of Germany.
If you think 4th tier of Germany at one of Germany's biggest clubs is significantly worse than MLS, again you're fanboying.

Jozy has never been good enough to regular at a team as big or with the quality of WB.
You're holding Sargent to a standard that you've never held Jozy to which is hypocritical.

You obviously over value the quality of MLS and players with previous natl team experience when rating players.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #329
Wednesday November 28, 2018 12:57am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from bjelks

You said you have to be in a better league playing consistently and scoring to be better than Jozy.
Nova plays in a better league than Jozy, playing regularly and scoring goals and he's 7 yrs younger.
If you think Eredivisie isn't a better league than MLS you're fanboying.

You said in order for Sargent to earn a call up he must play in a league as good as MLS. MLS is a 3rd tier league. He's playing in the 4th tier of Germany.
If you think 4th tier of Germany at one of Germany's biggest clubs is significantly worse than MLS, again you're fanboying.

Jozy has never been good enough to regular at a team as big or with the quality of WB.
You're holding Sargent to a standard that you've never held Jozy to which is hypocritical.

You obviously over value the quality of MLS and players with previous natl team experience when rating players.
If you want to make an argument for Nova being better than Jozy because he plays in the Eredivisie, then that's a fair point to make. But just like Gall, just because you start out well in a few games does not prove that you are difinitively better. I still think Nova has at a decent amount to prove before he can be brought into that conversation. Not saying that he wont get there or isn't talented, only that at this point in time I don't think he has shown enough yet to warrant that type of praise.

MLS is on par with 2 Bundesliga. Sargent is playing 2 levels below that. It's basically like calling in a kid who is playing in the USL. That's just not good enough. It doesn't matter if he is at one of Germany's biggest clubs. Hes in the reserves and hasn't even made the bench of the first team. Should we call in Haji Wright, Isaiah Young, Matthew Olosunde, etc. because they play in the reserves for big clubs? No, absolutely not. Again, this is not saying he isn't talented or will not get there at some point, but right now he just isn't there yet.

Nothing I've said is hypocritical either. I'm holding everyone to the exact same standard - play first team in a league as good or better than MLS. If someone is not doing that, then they should not receive preferential treatment over anyone else who is. Theres no overvaluing anyone or any league. If anything, Sargent has been the beneficiary of preferential treatment. Players like Sabbi, Nova, Dwyer, Rubin, Agudelo, Siebatcheu (if he wants), hell even Parker and Boyd, should be given chances over Sargent until Sargent can crack the first team at Bremen or go out on loan to a league as good or better than MLS and get first team minutes there. Its is very simple.

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