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Bshredder
Post #16
Wednesday December 12, 2012 8:32pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Original post from MSantoine

BShred I agree with what your saying. However I think you could make the same claim if Man U, Arsenal, or Chelsea got relegated. The geography would make it tough and they may need to have regionalised 2nd division (like 2-10 team leagues and champs of each play for right to get promoted to MLS). I guess step 1 would be to eliminate the salary cap to prevent the exceptional teams from being punished for a bad year.


If you eliminate the salary cap, then you run the risk of clubs not being about business. It should be a business unlike the way some of the bigger European teams are run (through super-rich guys who don't care about the bottom line). What happens when these owners leave? There are a lot of things to like about European soccer but the business structure is not one of them. Most of them have piss poor bottom lines.

I'll take parity (and a healthy bottom line) over having 3-4 teams that can actually win a title.

Original post from MSantoine

Minor League baseball average 7k. No reason to think a division 2 league, if backed by MLS, couldn't do the same in the right markets. 7k average would be competitive with scandanavian leagues, and League 1 in England.


In the right markes maybe, maybe some can hit 7K. But that's a stretch. Minor league baseball does not average close 7K. There are many teams that usually draw a few hundred.

7K would be impressive and that is reach to say that. I was watching a stream of the last Sandhausen game (2.Bundesliga). Attendance was 2400

Original post from MSantoine

I'm just one of those where, like NCAA basketball, even if its successful, if there's a way to make improve it why not look into it?


NCAA basketball can start by not letting its strongest and most popular conference (The Big East) go to crap.

MSantoine
Post #17
Wednesday December 12, 2012 9:07pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
International League (AAA baseball for eastern part of USA) averaged 6,956 people total. That is while being in such power markets as Pawtucket RI, Toledo OH, Scranton PA, etc. Pacific League (western half) was 6,100.
2.Bundesliga averaged 17k (similar to champiosnship league) 3.Bundesliga was just under 6k. I think we could get NASL into the 6-8k range and grow from there. For refference NASL is currently averaging just under 4K. I think with the MLS name/money behind it it wouldnt be a stretch to double that

munns5986
Post #18
Wednesday December 12, 2012 10:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 96
Grant it I am also a baseball fan but I think the MLB is a great system to try to emulate. I am not saying have 4 different levels in your farm system but you need to have a place where you can develop your younger players. In my opinion MLS needs to continue trying to sign big name players (most likely only going to get them toward the end of their career) to keep people interested and to grow the fan base. These big name players will provide even the average fan an understanding of the skill that is required to play the game. It will also cause people to start picking "Their team". I have plenty of friends who are fans of a team because of a big name player that was there when they started watching the sport. These guys can now tell you all about the teams farm system and the future stars of the team. I think you are seeing this with players like Beckham and Henry.

In the meantime MLS needs to have the farm system developing players and when the player is ready bring him up. To me one of the logical ways of going about this is the NASL. Start having these teams associated with MLS clubs so a players and fans a like can see what the future might look like.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #19
Thursday December 13, 2012 12:38am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,019
Original post from MSantoine

BShred I agree with what your saying. However I think you could make the same claim if Man U, Arsenal, or Chelsea got relegated. The geography would make it tough and they may need to have regionalised 2nd division (like 2-10 team leagues and champs of each play for right to get promoted to MLS). I guess step 1 would be to eliminate the salary cap to prevent the exceptional teams from being punished for a bad year.

2) - Minor League baseball average 7k. No reason to think a division 2 league, if backed by MLS, couldn't do the same in the right markets. 7k average would be competitive with scandanavian leagues, and League 1 in England.

I love how far MLS has progressed in the last 5 years or so. Super hard to do and they have made mostly the right decisions. I'm just one of those where, like NCAA basketball, even if its successful, if there's a way to make improve it why not look into it?


Because Pro/Rel will not improve it.

tylercocinas
Post #20
Thursday December 13, 2012 1:19pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 751
Original post from 2tone

Because Pro/Rel will not improve it.


Honestly, why is this such a hard concept for people to understand?? Pro/Rel is not some magic pill that will just fix what ails MLS. What will promotion and relegation do to improve an owner's bottom line? How will that put more money in their pockets? If ANYONE can provide a legitimate answer to that, hell I might get on board.

MSantoine
Post #21
Thursday December 13, 2012 3:16pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
Pro/Rel does two major things
1) Forces teams to play hard late in the season to avoid being relegated. Teams playing hard all season keeps fans interest and the product the best possible quality.
2) Forces owners to spend money on their team to prevent relegation. Spending money on their team increases the quality of the product. Increasing the quality of the product brings bigger TV deals. Bigger tv deals increase the value of each franchise.

Bshredder
Post #22
Thursday December 13, 2012 7:17pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Original post from MSantoine

Pro/Rel does two major things
1) Forces teams to play hard late in the season to avoid being relegated. Teams playing hard all season keeps fans interest and the product the best possible quality.
2) Forces owners to spend money on their team to prevent relegation. Spending money on their team increases the quality of the product. Increasing the quality of the product brings bigger TV deals. Bigger tv deals increase the value of each franchise.


There are a lot of things wrong with this. It doesn't produces the best quality since there aren't enough markets in the US to support top soccer.

Owners won't necessarily spend more money. They won't even invest in the first place knowing that they can get relegated. It won't increase quality because you're still going to have the same players.

Here's a secret for you. Players are always motivated. Even when they're on crap teams, their motivated to play well and get off the team or get called up to the NT.

Bigger TV deals? If you're ESPN or NBC, are you going to agree to a deal with a league when it's not certain that the league will have Los Angeles, New York, or Chicago in it? What happens if those teams get relegated in the span of 3 years and are replaced by Akron, Reno, and Boise?

MSantoine
Post #23
Thursday December 13, 2012 7:34pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
If every other country in the world has some kind of promotion and relegation, and these are all countries passing us by on the global scale, then why wouldn't we try to copy them? Instead of trying to "americanize" soccer why no keep soccer like soccer is and trust in people appreciating the product (soccer is the most watched/played sport)

Bshredder
Post #24
Thursday December 13, 2012 7:38pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Original post from MSantoine

If every other country in the world has some kind of promotion and relegation, and these are all countries passing us by on the global scale, then why wouldn't we try to copy them? Instead of trying to "americanize" soccer why no keep soccer like soccer is and trust in people appreciating the product (soccer is the most watched/played sport)


Because it's 150 years old in other countries.

The US is a different beast in every single aspect.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that pro/rel is the reason why other countries are passing us? What's a million times more important is having a functional league and a productive youth development system. That's completely independent of pro/rel

Why don't you try to directly address some of the hurdles to pro/rel in the US that have been made clear in this thread?

MSantoine
Post #25
Thursday December 13, 2012 7:44pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 2,184
Original post from Bshredder

Why don't you try to directly address some of the hurdles to pro/rel in the US that have been made clear in this thread?


I'm pretty sure I've done that. The only critiscm is that what if a big market team gets relegated.

What prevents big markets from being relegated? Abolish salary cap. Makes it so NY, Seattle, etc can spend more money for being a better run team.

What will make people go to the games? Same thing makes them go to AAA baseball games. Lower division is regioalized to make rivalries, also they'll have to do gimmick marketing (like AAA baseball) and target high school/junior high kids

Bshredder
Post #26
Thursday December 13, 2012 7:52pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Original post from MSantoine

I'm pretty sure I've done that. The only critiscm is that what if a big market team gets relegated.

What prevents big markets from being relegated? Abolish salary cap. Makes it so NY, Seattle, etc can spend more money for being a better run team.

What will make people go to the games? Same thing makes them go to AAA baseball games. Lower division is regioalized to make rivalries, also they'll have to do gimmick marketing (like AAA baseball) and target high school/junior high kids


But if people are going to AAA baseball games without promotion, they'll go to lower level soccer without promotion.

Do you feel confident that there are enough markets in the US to support prosoccer at the top level? Don't forget, if you have lower divisions you have to be willing to accept the fact that these small teams can play in the top division.

Abolishing the cap is going to lead to a disaster. The league is simply not that stable. You do not want the same bottom lines that you see in Europe.

There are a million things more important to soccer in this country than promotion/relegation.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #27
Thursday December 13, 2012 8:39pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,019
Still arguing the Pro/Rel are we? Pro/Rel is unattainable as a business. One has to look when the EPL first formed. The owners wanted to scrap Pro/Rel. Why? Because the owners then and still to this day know that Pro/Rel is a horrible business model for success. Pro/Rel will be scrapped in some European leagues before MLS ever considers Pro/Rel.

Sports are a business and businessmen will never invest in MLS and it's teams with relegation hanging over their heads.

Seriously what does pro/rel do for the EPL? You know how much money the EPL could save if it didn't have to give out balloon payments to relegated teams every year.

nick
Boston, MA
Post #28
Thursday December 13, 2012 9:25pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 118
I happen to love pro/rel but don't see it in the MLS for some 30 years at minimum if at all. It just makes things more interesting and I see no way EPL ditches it. The issue is teams are constantly falling and rising through leagues, all owners of English championship, league 1 and league 2 teams would never go for that because there's no room for improvement. That being said I still don't see it happening any time soon in America.

skangles
DC
Post #29
Tuesday February 4, 2014 2:46am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,965
I just read that Beckham is getting the Miami team for $25m. I knew the MLS gave him the rights to the 20th franchise (now 22nd) but I had no idea he was getting such a bargain. That's going to turn into one hell of an investment for Beckham.

EKneezy
Post #30
Tuesday February 4, 2014 3:01am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,837
Yeah he was getting a super bargain when he went over to LA.

Seems like they're gonna announce it on Wednesday. They still haven't come to a decision on the stadium though

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