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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #1
Wednesday December 12, 2012 5:49pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,599
I got to thinking about MLS expansion, and I think the perfect number is 30 teams. 15 teams per division. Play each team inside of the division twice which would make 28 games, and play 6 teams in the opposite division twice which would make 10 games. In total it would be 38 games. Then add in playoffs and a Chamionship game. 8 teams from each division make the playoffs.

Here are my two divisions and teams:

East Coast:

New England or Boston by then
NY Cosmos
NJ Redbulls
DC
Philly
Chicago
Montreal
Toronto
Carolina
Ft. Lauderdale
Atlanta
Orlando City
Saint Louis
Minnesota
Nashville

West Coast:

Galaxy
Chivas USA
Seattle
Portland
Vancouver
San Jose
Houston
Dallas
Sporting KC
Colorado
RSL
Edmonton
Pheonix
San Antonio
Las Vegas

MSantoine
Post #2
Wednesday December 12, 2012 5:56pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
30 is way too much. MLS shouldnt try to copy american sports leagues. Soccer is too different of a sport. Follow european models

richieJkulesaNY
Post #3
Wednesday December 12, 2012 6:07pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 1,016
The league would be WAY too watered down talent wise.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #4
Wednesday December 12, 2012 6:09pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,599
Original post from MSantoine

30 is way too much. MLS shouldnt try to copy american sports leagues. Soccer is too different of a sport. Follow european models


You do understand that the U.S. is a massive country right? It's folly to follow a European Model in this country. It's too damn big to follow a European model. Not only that MLS will expand more than 20 teams that has already been stated, and 30 teams is perfect. It gets MLS in to all of the major markets across this country. You wnat MLS to be a big time sport in this country then you have to expand all across this country. The last time I looked the U.S. sport model of expansion has worked out pretty well. The NBA and NFL are two of the most profitable Leagues in the world. Anyways in my opinion this will be pretty close to what happens in the next 20 years.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #5
Wednesday December 12, 2012 6:11pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,599
Original post from richieJkulesaNY

The league would be WAY too watered down talent wise.


No it wouldn't. There are talented kids all across this country. the NFL isn't watered down. In fact expansion has led to more talented players coming into the NFL.

MSantoine
Post #6
Wednesday December 12, 2012 6:22pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
The reason why its fine in NBA, NFL, and MLB is that those are the top leagues for their respective sport in the world. They attract the best players in the world. its why the prem could probably support 25-30 teams in EPL. MLS should follow NHL/learn from NHL mistakes and not over expand into bad markets. 20 team MLS with a 10-15 team second divison would be perfect. Promote/relegate 1 team only to pacify owners that there is only a small chance of relegation. It keeps teams that are not in the top 5-10 from giving up as no one wants to be in the relegation spot. Could have the bottom 2 teams in MLS play a home and home and loser plays the champion of NASL in a one off for rights to enter MLS. Could have the game the afternoon of MLS cup or the day before at the same stadium to attract interest and get buzz going

CBoyd3142
Probably far from where you are...
Post #7
Wednesday December 12, 2012 6:37pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 320
Not that I disagree with this, but Don Garber has made it clear (as long as he's commish) that this won't happen. I for one would love to see the promotion/relegation system but won't be surprised to see it not happen. At least not for several years.
Toffee Fan....for the moment
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #8
Wednesday December 12, 2012 6:52pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 9,599
I don't ever want to see pro/rel in MLS. It would be the death of soccer in this country. Sounders attendance before becoming an expansion MLS team was in the lower thousands I am talking around 2 to 3 thousand at Seahhawks stadium. Seattle after MLS expansion 30,000 plus. Portland before lower thousands Portland after 18,000 sell outs. The American fan cares about their teams being in the big leagues not in the minor leagues. Thats the culture.

I am with Garber on this Pro/Rel should never be adopted.

bbakerxyz
Post #9
Wednesday December 12, 2012 7:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
Sweet, I can't wait to go to a game in November in Edmonton.

MSantoine
Post #10
Wednesday December 12, 2012 7:24pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
The arguement for Seattle, Portland, and even Montreal is the perfect arguement for why it would work. Those were 3 of the 5 highest average attendance teams. Now say Chivas, 2nd to last points, 2nd lowest in attendance gets relegated and some team in Miami, or Carolina, gets promoted. Now you have a team averaging ~13k leave and one that may average 20-25k (seems to be the bump for "expansion") Thats an extra 7-10k fans per home game for MLS as a league. How is that bad?? Again looking at EPL. West Ham has increased attendance from 31k to 34.5k. Reading from 19k-24k. bolton was averaging less than 23k. Blackpool 22k. EPL went from 45k to 53k. How is that bad??

Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #11
Wednesday December 12, 2012 7:38pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,290
He's saying that the culture in America, for obvious reasons, is much different than that of England. Americans, especially given the relative youth of the sport as far as the MLS goes, wouldn't be as inclined to go to a relegated team game. That's not the mentality that Americans have.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #12
Wednesday December 12, 2012 7:54pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 1,016
Original post from 2tone

No it wouldn't. There are talented kids all across this country. the NFL isn't watered down. In fact expansion has led to more talented players coming into the NFL.


It ABSOLUTELY would. You cant compare it to the NFL, or even the MLB and NBA, because those sports do not compete against other countries for the worlds best talent. There are already some sorry excuses for "professional" soccer clubs in this country, how would adding more teams not water it down.

Bshredder
Post #13
Wednesday December 12, 2012 7:57pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Original post from MSantoine

The arguement for Seattle, Portland, and even Montreal is the perfect arguement for why it would work. Those were 3 of the 5 highest average attendance teams. Now say Chivas, 2nd to last points, 2nd lowest in attendance gets relegated and some team in Miami, or Carolina, gets promoted. Now you have a team averaging ~13k leave and one that may average 20-25k (seems to be the bump for "expansion") Thats an extra 7-10k fans per home game for MLS as a league. How is that bad??


Because it's not always going to work out that way. With MLS having much more parity (compared with Euro leagues), it's only a matter of time when Seattle, LA, NYRB goes down.

When I'm on twitter, I have people telling me promotion/relegation will cure all ills. It won't. This league won't survive if big teams go down and are replaced by small teams.

If this country had hundreds of clubs ranging from small cities to big cities, it could work. But with the United States and Canada spread out the way it is, it's not going to work.

Right now there is one New York team. This isn't London where there are 10 teams. Now if New York is relegated, there goes the biggest media market in the league. And who is going to replace that? Charleston, SC? You can argue that NY needs to get punished for a poor season but the bottom line is that the whole league is crushed if that happens.

Seattle goes down? Who replaces them and their massive fanbase? A team from Reno?

I love promotion and relegation in Europe but it's just not feasible here. Perhaps I am just old enough to remember soccer before MLS. Creating a new professional league in this country is remarkably difficult. Yes it is a big country but the media markets are jammed. The American culture is a tough think to break into and MLS has done that. Hats off.

It can still be a great league without promotion/relegation too. Right now their priorities are on youth development and finishing the process of getting all the teams into their own stadiums creating better gameday atmospheres.

blaise213
Post #14
Wednesday December 12, 2012 8:09pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,581
My second favorite topic next to dual national players

I think #26 teams is the magic number

#20 NY2
#21 Orlando City
#22 San Francisco
#23 Miami
#24 St Louis
#25 Las Vegas
#26 ?

Move chivas to Phoenix and rebrand. San Francisco would work because the SF 49ers are moving 45 mins away to Santa Clara. Nobody from the city drives an hour to see the SMURFQUAKES. Don garber stated he wants "Teams to be closer"

And San Diego would be a disaster. Im from there. The worst fair weather fans and impossible to get a stadium built because of politics. The only way it works is if the SD Chargers move to LA

MSantoine
Post #15
Wednesday December 12, 2012 8:19pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
BShred I agree with what your saying. However I think you could make the same claim if Man U, Arsenal, or Chelsea got relegated. The geography would make it tough and they may need to have regionalised 2nd division (like 2-10 team leagues and champs of each play for right to get promoted to MLS). I guess step 1 would be to eliminate the salary cap to prevent the exceptional teams from being punished for a bad year.

2) - Minor League baseball average 7k. No reason to think a division 2 league, if backed by MLS, couldn't do the same in the right markets. 7k average would be competitive with scandanavian leagues, and League 1 in England.

I love how far MLS has progressed in the last 5 years or so. Super hard to do and they have made mostly the right decisions. I'm just one of those where, like NCAA basketball, even if its successful, if there's a way to make improve it why not look into it?

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The final stretch of the English league season is upon us, with several Americans on the verge of relegation with their teams.
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