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rainORshine
Post #61
Friday August 9, 2013 3:47pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
Original post from Bshredder

I actually think the Austrian Bundesliga is significantly worse than Norway or Sweden.


significantly worse? really? why? Austrian teams fair MUCH better than norway and sweden in european competition.

if you are using some other metric to compare, please explain

obviously you think austria is top-heavy and norway and sweden are not, but please explain why you think mid-table teams are better in norway/sweden

or are you just going on a "gut feeling"?

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #62
Friday August 9, 2013 4:57pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,467
What evidence do we have to support the assertion that "Austria is a top heavy league" ??

If anything, I think they're a barrel shaped league, with most of their best players being in the midfield. Admittedly, I have very little experience with the league, but from what little I have seen I can say that it didn't appear to be very top heavy, with most the play going through the CDMs and eventually out to the wings. If it were noticeably top heavy I'd expect a significant amount of interplay and close control at the top of the area...but maybe the definition of "top heavy" is subjective...

I still think it'd be better for Boyd to hang out there for another year...it's a feeder league that generally leads back to Germany, so if he does well this season we can expect some Bundesliga interest.

rainORshine
Post #63
Friday August 9, 2013 5:07pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
maybe people do not realize that austrian bund only has 10 teams - play every team 4 times.

salzburg, vienna, rapid and strurm graz are very solid teams so that is 12 very good games right there.

teams 5-7 are generally respectable. thats 12 more games

if rapid moves to europa group they will play total of 10 more games against teams that are near the top of their respective league (asteras was 3rd in greek super league)

so that is 34 games against very respectable competition.

no its not EPL or bundesliga, but it is very solid exposure for 22 y/o american. i hope he moves on between now and next summer, but its not a terrible spot.

arguments for and against team like watford being a better place to play. bottom line it is a lateral move - at best

rainORshine
Post #64
Friday August 9, 2013 5:09pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
Original post from recycledhumans

What evidence do we have to support the assertion that "Austria is a top heavy league" ??

If anything, I think they're a barrel shaped league, with most of their best players being in the midfield. Admittedly, I have very little experience with the league, but from what little I have seen I can say that it didn't appear to be very top heavy, with most the play going through the CDMs and eventually out to the wings. If it were noticeably top heavy I'd expect a significant amount of interplay and close control at the top of the area...but maybe the definition of "top heavy" is subjective...

I still think it'd be better for Boyd to hang out there for another year...it's a feeder league that generally leads back to Germany, so if he does well this season we can expect some Bundesliga interest.


sorry, no - meant as far as the best teams are always the same, then the quality drops off predictably - teams 5/6-10

MSantoine
Post #65
Friday August 9, 2013 5:30pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from rainORshine

maybe people do not realize that austrian bund only has 10 teams - play every team 4 times.

salzburg, vienna, rapid and strurm graz are very solid teams so that is 12 very good games right there.

teams 5-7 are generally respectable. thats 12 more games

if rapid moves to europa group they will play total of 10 more games against teams that are near the top of their respective league (asteras was 3rd in greek super league)

so that is 34 games against very respectable competition.

no its not EPL or bundesliga, but it is very solid exposure for 22 y/o american. i hope he moves on between now and next summer, but its not a terrible spot.

arguments for and against team like watford being a better place to play. bottom line it is a lateral move - at best


Last year Austria and Red Bull had 82 & 77 points respectivelly. 3rd place team Rapid had 57. Then 4th place had 48. Thats the definition of top heavy. It was a clear 2 team race. Going by goal differntial those two teams were over +50. Rapid was the only other club with a GD better than +1.

Also barring some miraculous run in UCL or Europa league the Austrian League is most likely losing their 2nd Champs League spot to Romaniz, Czech Republic, Israel or Cyprus. So only 4 teams will go to Europe after this season and only one of those in the money making UCL meaning the league gets less money, which leads to less talent, and a decreasing league

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #66
Friday August 9, 2013 5:48pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,467
well that part i agree with, i guess i misinterpreted what was meant by the "top"

As far as that goes, yes the league does have it's perennial powerhouses, but the gap between the top and bottom team in that league versus the gap between the EPL champ and relegation bait is much more pronounced.

Bshredder
Post #67
Friday August 9, 2013 6:01pm

Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts: 1,459
Original post from rainORshine

significantly worse? really? why? Austrian teams fair MUCH better than norway and sweden in european competition.

if you are using some other metric to compare, please explain

obviously you think austria is top-heavy and norway and sweden are not, but please explain why you think mid-table teams are better in norway/sweden

or are you just going on a "gut feeling"?


Last year Rapid as awful in the Europa League. The defending Champion, RB Salzburg, was eliminated from the UCL in its first qualifying round by a semipro team from Luxembourg. This year, Austria Vienna is being roundly criticized for its performance in the first leg of its qualifying round against FH Hafnarfjardar (not a typo).

Austria has always been a bad league and the last few years it has been getting worse.

I like Boyd but right now he plays in the worst league of any American player currently in the USMNT playing pool. Norway and Sweden are much better.

Have you ever watched an Austrian Bundesliga game? Not the highlights, but a game?

rainORshine
Post #68
Friday August 9, 2013 6:03pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
Original post from MSantoine

Last year Austria and Red Bull had 82 & 77 points respectivelly. 3rd place team Rapid had 57. Then 4th place had 48. Thats the definition of top heavy. It was a clear 2 team race. Going by goal differntial those two teams were over +50. Rapid was the only other club with a GD better than +1.

Also barring some miraculous run in UCL or Europa league the Austrian League is most likely losing their 2nd Champs League spot to Romaniz, Czech Republic, Israel or Cyprus. So only 4 teams will go to Europe after this season and only one of those in the money making UCL meaning the league gets less money, which leads to less talent, and a decreasing league


last season was especially top heavy. but the fact that salzburg and vienna were dominant last year is not really strong evidence of too much.

boyd will leave rapid soon, and all of this will be moot

i just think it is safe to say that if rapid advances to group stage of europa this will be a productive fall against some quality competition

hopefully a transfer by january

rainORshine
Post #69
Friday August 9, 2013 7:29pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
Original post from Bshredder

Last year Rapid as awful in the Europa League. The defending Champion, RB Salzburg, was eliminated from the UCL in its first qualifying round by a semipro team from Luxembourg. This year, Austria Vienna is being roundly criticized for its performance in the first leg of its qualifying round against FH Hafnarfjardar (not a typo).

Austria has always been a bad league and the last few years it has been getting worse.

I like Boyd but right now he plays in the worst league of any American player currently in the USMNT playing pool. Norway and Sweden are much better.

Have you ever watched an Austrian Bundesliga game? Not the highlights, but a game?


this is an explanation of why norway/sweden is better than austria? your ENTIRE argument is based on the fact that austria had a poor showing in euro competition in 12/13 (and that vienna did not beat icelandic champions more easily)?

as of now there are 7 teams from austria, norway and sweden alive in euro competition:
- austria - 4
- norway - 2
- sweden - 1

bashing the austrian league is not equivalent with providing evidence that norway/sweden are better

vienna is the only team from austria/norway/sweden in CL playoffs.

Jod
Copenhagen
Post #70
Saturday August 10, 2013 3:33pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 32
Some metrics via Transfermarkt.co.uk

#, % foreign players, Average player market value:
BUND Foreign players: 61 (23,9 %)470.714 £
TIPPE Foreign players: 122 (32,6 %)391.647 £
ALSV Foreign players: 103 (26,9 %)309.287 £
MLS Foreign players: 236 (44,6 %)295.607 £

Rapid: Avg Age starting 11: 25,4 Years avg market value starting 11: 700.000 £
Watford: Avg Age starting 11: 22,3 Years avg market value starting 11: 1.108.000 £

MSantoine
Post #71
Sunday August 11, 2013 1:18am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,723
Original post from Jod

Some metrics via Transfermarkt.co.uk

#, % foreign players, Average player market value:
BUND Foreign players: 61 (23,9 %)470.714 £
TIPPE Foreign players: 122 (32,6 %)391.647 £
ALSV Foreign players: 103 (26,9 %)309.287 £
MLS Foreign players: 236 (44,6 %)295.607 £

Rapid: Avg Age starting 11: 25,4 Years avg market value starting 11: 700.000 £
Watford: Avg Age starting 11: 22,3 Years avg market value starting 11: 1.108.000 £


So Watford is a step up if there starters are worth almost 50% more on average.
I think the avg market value is skewed by the main problem in MLS and possibly the other leagues. Huge divide from top salary to minimum salary

Jod
Copenhagen
Post #72
Sunday August 11, 2013 12:55pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 32
Original post from MSantoine

So Watford is a step up if there starters are worth almost 50% more on average.
I think the avg market value is skewed by the main problem in MLS and possibly the other leagues. Huge divide from top salary to minimum salary


First of all, the way they define market value is a projection of how much the players would fetch in a transfer, not a direct reflection of their salary.

The comparison is more skewed by the age difference. MLS players tend to be older, they have less up-side on their transfer value, where as the other leagues benefit from having more U21 and U23 talents that get sold to bigger leagues. Also the salary cap and single entity structure undoubtedly make the comparison between MLS and the other leagues very difficult, because there is less actual free market selling of players out of MLS.

Overall, norway and sweden have more teams and MV is more equally distributed, but there is no doubting that the top teams in Austria have generally performed better in Europe over the last 5 years. If a young striker is going to develop into a star, I dont think he should linger more than 2 seasons in any of those leagues.

skangles
DC
Post #73
Tuesday August 20, 2013 1:28am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 5,438
Boyd separated his shoulder while training with the MNT in Bosnia. How did I miss this?

Anyway, he's out for around 3 weeks so I guess we can list him as doubtful for the September WCQs.

Scout92
Lone Star State(Gun State)
Post #74
Tuesday August 20, 2013 2:46am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,424
Bad set back..he was in good form for club..

rainORshine
Post #75
Friday August 30, 2013 12:57am

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 2,097
Original post from Bshredder

I actually think the Austrian Bundesliga is significantly worse than Norway or Sweden.


just wanted to follow up on this now that european qualifying is complete

each country (austria, sweden, norway) had 5 teams enter into qualifying rounds. 4 of 15 have reached the group stages. 3 of the 4 are from austria

- vienna took care of the croatian champs zagreb to become 1st austrian team in 8 years (so i read) to qualify for UCL group stage

- salzburg demolished their playoff opponent 7-nil to ease into europa campaign

- rapid was nearly as impressive (without boyd) winning on aggrgate 4-0

- elfborg (sweden) squeaked by nordsjaelland 2-1 to give sweden/norway 1 representative in europe proper

austrian bundesliga has as many european participants as ererdivisie
maybe the decline of the austrian league is overblown

again, for me boyd playing europa and 2 games each with vienna and salzburg (and graz) before the winter break is every bit as good as spending the fall with watford.

see if you cant up your stock in europa this fall and make a strong winter move. if i were rep'ing boyd, that would be my advice. the championship will be there in the winter or next summer if that is as good as you can get

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