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Lilshmike
Post #76
Tuesday February 23, 2021 6:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from hamsamwich

I'm gonna go back to the watching the game with your eyes. Green has always been a guy who has technique and is quick to take a scoring opportunity, whether that be a long shot, free kick, run to the back post, first time shot on a pass coming into the box. I think Lletget is completely different. Likes to carry the ball and keep possession. Is secure in his tackling and defensive position. I haven't seen much of Lletget making the key passes or blast shots, but that doesn't mean he isn't effective. While they may play a similar starting position their roles are completely different. I still think Green is the more likely to be an impact sub whereas I see Lletget as a guy used to press and play hard for 60-70 minutes.
Solid points

cudevil
Post #77
Tuesday February 23, 2021 7:15pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,249
Original post from Lilshmike

Green has 15 caps with the USMNT to Lletget's 18. They've practiy gotten the same number of opportunities, so your first points are a bit off base.

But your argument is that because Green hasn't been called in in a while, he deserves to get called up now? That doesn't make sense. The USMNT shouldn't be charity.

You're also using fluffy stuff that sounds good to justify one guy playing in one league over another... but the fact still remains... MLS and 2 Bundesliga are basically the same level. It's a radically difficult argument to make otherwise. And remember, it's not like Green has been pushing for promotion his entire time at Furth, they have been a bottom to mid table team up until this season. Is the bottom half of 2 Bundesliga a step up from MLS? No.

2 guys, both playing the same position in CM, both playing at relatively the same level, and one of those guys has consistently outperformed the other and produced more goals and assists than the other. Both have had relatively the same number of USMNT opportunities. But the guy who has been the lower performer deserves a chance over the guy who has been the higher performer, simply because the lower performing guy plays in Europe - which is different from MLS...

That is basically the argument you are making. That's bias.


Context matters: Lletget's first cap for the Nats was in 2017. In that time, he's had 18 appearances to Green's 7. 12 of Lletget's appearances have been since Green's last cap with the Nats. Only on the most superficial level could it be considered correct to say that they have had the almost the same opportunities, particularly given the change in coaches. Green's play has improved of late, hence the desire to see him called up over Lletget, even if they are playing at a similar level.

These are not difficult concepts to grasp.

And in terms of ability, to give a more apples to apples comparison, Green is 25. Lletget was injured for his age 25 season, so let's toss that. At 26, Lletget had 3 goals and 2 assists in 28 games. The prior year, Lletget had 1 goal and 8 assists in 31 appearances. Green had 4 and 1 (and I doubt that Green had guys on his team the level of Gio Dos Santos and Steven Gerrard).

It is FAR from a stretch to argue that Green is playing at a higher level at a similar points in their careers, and that Green can still grow, considering that Lletget has had arguably the two best years of his career at age 27 and 28.

I'm seeing a bias here, and it's not in the way you are arguing.

hamsamwich
Post #78
Tuesday February 23, 2021 7:48pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,697
As we move into the games that matter - it's important to remember that Gregg be judged on his results. Not dual national recruitment, not playing style, not player selection. I'm not concerned if he calls in the exact squad I want or whatever as long as he wins. Nations league is important as it counts toward the fifa ranking and thus the World Cup pot we potentially are put in. I want to see us compete and do our best. I'm sure Gregg wants that too. Development while competing was a concept Ken Williams used to talk about a lot and it's not easy. But that's what he's paid for. Lletget and Green are placeholders for the Kayos and Clarks of the pool anyways. 2026 looks bright enjoy the ride.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #79
Wednesday February 24, 2021 1:17am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,557
We'll be fine, he'll approach the games that matter accordingly.

He's a solid coach, imo, the anti-GB static from some in the fan base will slowly go away with positive results going forward. People got too hung up on his early stubborn tactical approach...thinking he was forever stuck or couldn't adapt or simply sucked...he had time to try things...he was experimenting and pressurizing his players, challenging them to find solutions, but it was too much too early with a mixed bag of players.

Imo, it was a hard lesson learned. He nearly lost the confidence of the players. But playtime was over and he needed a result the second game versus Canada and changed the approach.. added more flexibility and direct play. Imo, that tactical flexibility is what we'll see in all games that matter.

I think we're going to see some really good ball going forward.

Breana
Post #80
Wednesday February 24, 2021 7:31pm

Joined Sep 2020
Total Posts: 26
What a great article posted. Thanks red deer towing

stoked-3
Post #81
Monday March 1, 2021 4:56am

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 189
Original post from BG6

Bias works both ways on this site (except for those who cannot see their own intrinsic biases). Stats have no worth on their own, how we use them is what makes them valuable but is another source of bias.

OK I apologize in previous posts I said if you only use stats and dont watch a player to assess quality you dont know the game. That us unfair to make sure a blanket statement. Unlike some, I am willing to read and listen to others views and change my own accordingly. I l think about the below examples as evidence of quality and impact but if someone please quantify with stats the following I will happily admit I am mistaken and become a stats only convert:
*an intelligent off the ball run that draws a defender enabling another player to score
*the defender who is always in the right position and prevents a player from making passes because of where he is positioned (but may not always result in getting a tackle or interception)
*the player that makes a pass three or four before the goal that unlocks the defense to create the resulting goal.

Examples like these have tangible impacts in the game and are also signs of an impactful player but to me do not show up on the sheet at the end of the game. They also dont always show up on TV so when I suggest you have to watch I mean actually be there to watch.

There are plenty of players that have quality but may not always fit into a system with the players around them, would you automatically disregard them as being quality players because they dont have stats because of circumstance?

To me, reality what we discuss here is judging the quality of a player or a league is always going to be subjective so might as well capture both the stats and the eye test. Happy to amend this view with a compelling argument.

oops editing my thoughts sorry for multiple posts


I agree with what you are saying

Stats should be a factor, but just that a factor. Eyes should be a factor as well, present/future potential a factor, form a factor, system fit a factor, versatility a factor, and skill a factor,

To many americans rely just on stats-its why we ended up with Wondo on the WC team.

ogilview82
Post #82
Monday March 1, 2021 1:15pm

Joined Oct 2020
Total Posts: 10
I hope that they will have a great season this year! landscape company montgomery

Know Nothing
Post #83
Monday March 1, 2021 6:32pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,912
Just added a friendly against Jamaica March 25th in Austria. No reason why EPB should not get a look now : )

cudevil
Post #84
Monday March 1, 2021 6:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,249
Original post from Know Nothing

Just added a friendly against Jamaica March 25th in Austria. No reason why EPB should not get a look now : )


Unfortunately, he's hurt and the timing would be tight for his availability on March 25th.

stoked-3
Post #85
Monday March 1, 2021 11:27pm

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 189
Original post from Lilshmike

I see your point, and I feel like an example would be Sargent.

Lets call it for what it is... the kids has laid an egg since getting to the Bundesliga. A lot of us had hoped he would have been more productive... but sadly hes not been able to score many goals.

That being said, a lot of that has to do with his team and supporting cast. So Sargent, to an extent, has thus far been a product of circumstance. But he has to turn it around sooner rather than later or the circumstance argument won't hold up as strongly.

Sargent is playing at one of the highest levels in the world. He has had a hard time scoring goals for a crap team. Considering there aren't many players we have in his position, playing at the level he is at, its hard to find an apples to apples comparison. So, attempting to compare a guy like Sargent simply based on goals to a guy like Zardes simply based on goals is not exactly the most fair way to compare those two specific players because their circumstances are miles apart.

Bringing it back to the example of Green and Lletget... sure one could argue for one or the other... but a pretty straightforward way to approach the situation is asking a couple basic questions:
Do they play the same position? - Yes
Do they play in the same league? - No
Are their leagues comparable? - Yes, and MLS might be slightly better than 2 Bundesliga

The circumstances around these 2 guys aren't exactly miles apart. They are VERY similar. And considering both play the same position, playing at more or less the same level... using stats to compare the production rates of each is a applicable approach to comparing the two.

And when looking at those two, considering the situation is fairly apples to apples... there is only one differentiating factor - one plays in MLS and the other doesn't. So the MLS guy gets values less EVEN THOUGH he has been definitively more productive than his (more or less) equal counterpart.

That right there is the bias.


In relation to Sargent not sure he has a laid an egg-maybe statistically speaking, but if you watch the games or read articles-his team, pundits, etc are very high on him.

But in relation to Green/SL. In my opinion stats are a tool to be used but certainly not the only tool. I posted a cple other criteria I would use in a diff post.

For me, watching the games is the best way to evaluate talent.

Lets take CP for example he hasnt scored in a while but for many of the games he played he was certainly a spark for the team. Last game the commentators were talking about what he brought to the match and that he was the only one they could see that would be able to change the game. In other games he played we played really well then lampard moved him to a diff position and he was crap. But if we looked just at stats that would be lost.

You can also look at club form, but for me more importantly is how does that person perform at the Int level.

Green has proven the int level is not to big for him. Green is more offensive attacking than sl, frankly I dont have a problem with SL he has played well when he had his chance-but we know what we have with him-he is a fine depth piece when we do not have an A or B team. Green deserves a shot.

If we to look at stats: Green has 4 goals in 15 appearances SL has 4 in 18.
I would throw out Greens goal against Cuba as I think anyone on this board could score against Cuba but then I would do the same and say SL has 2 goals that came in games where we have won 6 nothing-

Julian has scored in a world cup AND scored against the A team of the World Cup Champs.

Some guys play well for club, have awesome stats, but it does not translate to the Int level. Tim Ream and Morales are good examples of that, Wondo etc
Since you thinks we all hate mls-Lima and Lewis are good examples. Lima played well for the nats-but he didint really warrant a call, same with JS or J Lewis-those guys club stats didnt really scream NT but GB for whatever reason brought them in and they performed.

So we need to see how Green fits in with our A team, not saying he starts but he need to be called in and get some mins-He has earned it with his club form, but moreso how he has performed in past Int games-lets see what the can do with our a players

stoked-3
Post #86
Wednesday March 3, 2021 4:55am

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 189
Feel bad for Owen O, I was so excited when he got in, not sure it could have gone any worse-to be fair there was no where for him to go-and actually glad he didn't panick and tried to play out of the situation but man what horrible timing -I felt horrible for him-hope he shakes it off

hamsamwich
Post #87
Wednesday March 3, 2021 2:11pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,697
Another guy in the category with Konrad. When you never play how are you supposed to have rhythm or a feel of where your teammates will be. Otasowie finally got a taste of the highest level of pressing that's what happens sometimes man city will suffocate you. Kid needed game time in the championship or league one in my opinion. He's unsure of what to do in that moment because he doesn't play enough.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #88
Wednesday March 3, 2021 8:35pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,473
Another goal for Dike

cudevil
Post #89
Wednesday March 3, 2021 8:41pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,249
Original post from EKneezy

Another goal for Dike


Yes. He has to get called in. This loan has been fantastic for him, and Barnsley, after only avoiding relegation due to the points deduction for Wigan, is very much in the thick of the playoff chase. A win today could see them go 6th with 2 games in hand on Cardiff and Reading (5th and 6th respectively), and 1 game on Bournemouth. He's been a serious factor in their success.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #90
Wednesday March 3, 2021 8:57pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,473
Original post from cudevil

Yes. He has to get called in. This loan has been fantastic for him, and Barnsley, after only avoiding relegation due to the points deduction for Wigan, is very much in the thick of the playoff chase. A win today could see them go 6th with 2 games in hand on Cardiff and Reading (5th and 6th respectively), and 1 game on Bournemouth. He's been a serious factor in their success.


Agreed 100 percent. Plus he's a Berhalter favorite. I'm very impressed with his desire. Only one year of MLS and he's already a big part of promotion hopes for Barnsley.

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