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hamsamwich
Post #61
Monday February 22, 2021 5:04pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,697
I think when it comes to Lletget vs Green one guy has had his chance due to covid and the other guy really hasn't. Last years stinker of an LA galaxy season didn't help Lletget nor did his leg break just as he got into the USA squad a few years ago. Nor did his club situation at West Ham (he never got a chance to drop down leagues a la Green and "start over") help him improve when he was around 20. I think he has a decent chance to make the squad as a starter at this point for the qualifiers ahead of Adams and next to mckennie. Spots are opening for Green too as players drop like flies with form and injuries.

I agree about this bias @lilshmike but that goes for most people. It's hard to view a game without preconceived ideas coming into people's heads. Comparing MLS and 2bund defenders I just don't think mls defenders understand tactics and I think that's where the comparison gets hard. But Lletget does well when he plays for USA and that's what's important. I think Green gets called in this next camp and he needs to show up.

cudevil
Post #62
Monday February 22, 2021 5:30pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,249
Original post from Lilshmike

The problem is that most people on here wear 2 different sets of glasses when they "watch" players and games.

One pair for MLS and domestic based players...

Another for foreign and European based players.

Stats are a pretty straightforward way to move out that bias. For example, Green and Lletget playing in practically the same position at relatively the same level. Lletget has consistently produced more goals and assists than Green. 2 guys, both with a similar metric to compare their rate of production... but yet one guy gets slammed for not being good enough and the other has people salivating the moment he scores a goal in his league, with those same people shouting that he needs to get a call up.

It's about bias. Plain and simple.


Lletget is 3 years older and has a lot more opportunities than Green. One has a real shot of getting in the Bundes, while the other's club career seems about maxed out. Those are real, tangible differences to justify wanting to see one over the other.

BG6
Post #63
Monday February 22, 2021 5:56pm

Joined May 2014
Total Posts: 102
Original post from Lilshmike

The problem is that most people on here wear 2 different sets of glasses when they "watch" players and games.

One pair for MLS and domestic based players...

Another for foreign and European based players.

Stats are a pretty straightforward way to move out that bias. For example, Green and Lletget playing in practically the same position at relatively the same level. Lletget has consistently produced more goals and assists than Green. 2 guys, both with a similar metric to compare their rate of production... but yet one guy gets slammed for not being good enough and the other has people salivating the moment he scores a goal in his league, with those same people shouting that he needs to get a call up.

It's about bias. Plain and simple.


Bias works both ways on this site (except for those who cannot see their own intrinsic biases). Stats have no worth on their own, how we use them is what makes them valuable but is another source of bias.

OK I apologize in previous posts I said if you only use stats and dont watch a player to assess quality you dont know the game. That us unfair to make sure a blanket statement. Unlike some, I am willing to read and listen to others views and change my own accordingly. I l think about the below examples as evidence of quality and impact but if someone please quantify with stats the following I will happily admit I am mistaken and become a stats only convert:
*an intelligent off the ball run that draws a defender enabling another player to score
*the defender who is always in the right position and prevents a player from making passes because of where he is positioned (but may not always result in getting a tackle or interception)
*the player that makes a pass three or four before the goal that unlocks the defense to create the resulting goal.

Examples like these have tangible impacts in the game and are also signs of an impactful player but to me do not show up on the sheet at the end of the game. They also dont always show up on TV so when I suggest you have to watch I mean actually be there to watch.

To me, reality what we discuss here is judging the quality of a player or a league is always going to be subjective so might as well capture both the stats and the eye test.

BG6
Post #64
Monday February 22, 2021 6:01pm

Joined May 2014
Total Posts: 102
Bias works both ways on this site (except for those who cannot see their own intrinsic biases). Stats have no worth on their own, how we use them is what makes them valuable but is another source of bias.

OK I apologize in previous posts I said if you only use stats and dont watch a player to assess quality you dont know the game. That us unfair to make sure a blanket statement. Unlike some, I am willing to read and listen to others views and change my own accordingly. I l think about the below examples as evidence of quality and impact but if someone please quantify with stats the following I will happily admit I am mistaken and become a stats only convert:
*an intelligent off the ball run that draws a defender enabling another player to score
*the defender who is always in the right position and prevents a player from making passes because of where he is positioned (but may not always result in getting a tackle or interception)
*the player that makes a pass three or four before the goal that unlocks the defense to create the resulting goal.

Examples like these have tangible impacts in the game and are also signs of an impactful player but to me do not show up on the sheet at the end of the game. They also dont always show up on TV so when I suggest you have to watch I mean actually be there to watch.

There are plenty of players that have quality but may not always fit into a system with the players around them, would you automatically disregard them as being quality players because they dont have stats because of circumstance?

To me, reality what we discuss here is judging the quality of a player or a league is always going to be subjective so might as well capture both the stats and the eye test. Happy to amend this view with a compelling argument.

oops editing my thoughts sorry for multiple posts

Lilshmike
Post #65
Monday February 22, 2021 6:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from BG6

Bias works both ways on this site (except for those who cannot see their own intrinsic biases). Stats have no worth on their own, how we use them is what makes them valuable but is another source of bias.

OK I apologize in previous posts I said if you only use stats and dont watch a player to assess quality you dont know the game. That us unfair to make sure a blanket statement. Unlike some, I am willing to read and listen to others views and change my own accordingly. I l think about the below examples as evidence of quality and impact but if someone please quantify with stats the following I will happily admit I am mistaken and become a stats only convert:
*an intelligent off the ball run that draws a defender enabling another player to score
*the defender who is always in the right position and prevents a player from making passes because of where he is positioned (but may not always result in getting a tackle or interception)
*the player that makes a pass three or four before the goal that unlocks the defense to create the resulting goal.

Examples like these have tangible impacts in the game and are also signs of an impactful player but to me do not show up on the sheet at the end of the game. They also dont always show up on TV so when I suggest you have to watch I mean actually be there to watch.

There are plenty of players that have quality but may not always fit into a system with the players around them, would you automatically disregard them as being quality players because they dont have stats because of circumstance?

To me, reality what we discuss here is judging the quality of a player or a league is always going to be subjective so might as well capture both the stats and the eye test. Happy to amend this view with a compelling argument.

oops editing my thoughts sorry for multiple posts
I see your point, and I feel like an example would be Sargent.

Lets call it for what it is... the kids has laid an egg since getting to the Bundesliga. A lot of us had hoped he would have been more productive... but sadly hes not been able to score many goals.

That being said, a lot of that has to do with his team and supporting cast. So Sargent, to an extent, has thus far been a product of circumstance. But he has to turn it around sooner rather than later or the circumstance argument won't hold up as strongly.

Sargent is playing at one of the highest levels in the world. He has had a hard time scoring goals for a crap team. Considering there aren't many players we have in his position, playing at the level he is at, its hard to find an apples to apples comparison. So, attempting to compare a guy like Sargent simply based on goals to a guy like Zardes simply based on goals is not exactly the most fair way to compare those two specific players because their circumstances are miles apart.

Bringing it back to the example of Green and Lletget... sure one could argue for one or the other... but a pretty straightforward way to approach the situation is asking a couple basic questions:
Do they play the same position? - Yes
Do they play in the same league? - No
Are their leagues comparable? - Yes, and MLS might be slightly better than 2 Bundesliga

The circumstances around these 2 guys aren't exactly miles apart. They are VERY similar. And considering both play the same position, playing at more or less the same level... using stats to compare the production rates of each is a applicable approach to comparing the two.

And when looking at those two, considering the situation is fairly apples to apples... there is only one differentiating factor - one plays in MLS and the other doesn't. So the MLS guy gets values less EVEN THOUGH he has been definitively more productive than his (more or less) equal counterpart.

That right there is the bias.

Lilshmike
Post #66
Monday February 22, 2021 6:47pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from cudevil

Lletget is 3 years older and has a lot more opportunities than Green. One has a real shot of getting in the Bundes, while the other's club career seems about maxed out. Those are real, tangible differences to justify wanting to see one over the other.
Green had a shot at the Bundesliga already and had to drop down a level.

Sure, Furth is doing well this season, but up until this they were firmly a lower to mid table 2 Bundesliga side since Green has been there.

"Having a shot" (considering he already had a shot and couldn't hack it at the time), is different from "being in the Bundesliga". Promotion is not guaranteed, and even if they do get promoted, there is no guarantee that Green will continue to be a big player for that team, as they could very likely dish out cash to strengthen their squad which could push him to the bench.

Just by simply being on a team that "has a shot" at making it into the Bundesliga does not make a player (Green in this case) better than another player (Lletget), nor does it automatically justify or warrant that player (Green) being called into the national team.

I'm not trying to be a Green hater, but quite literally the only difference between Lletget and Green at the end of the day is that one plays in Europe and the other in MLS. Lletget and Green both had some struggles, both play the same position, both failed to make an impact at the top level (EPL and Bundesliga) and both dropped down to a lower level to get time... and one has consistently over their time playing at that same level, in the same position, produced more goals and assists.

But the one in MLS who has consistently outperformed the other is supposedly "maxed out", and the other in 2 Bundesliga playing consistently at the same level as the guy in MLS is somehow worthy of being called into the national team because his team maybe might get promoted?

Bias. Right there.

Lilshmike
Post #67
Monday February 22, 2021 6:49pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
@cudevil

and to be clear, I agree that Lletget is at his peak (or "maxed out" as you put it). He will not get any better. That being said, I think its a safe bet to say that Green is very likely in that same category. Neither are going to develop much further. They are who they are at this point.

Lilshmike
Post #68
Monday February 22, 2021 6:56pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from hamsamwich

I think when it comes to Lletget vs Green one guy has had his chance due to covid and the other guy really hasn't. Last years stinker of an LA galaxy season didn't help Lletget nor did his leg break just as he got into the USA squad a few years ago. Nor did his club situation at West Ham (he never got a chance to drop down leagues a la Green and "start over") help him improve when he was around 20. I think he has a decent chance to make the squad as a starter at this point for the qualifiers ahead of Adams and next to mckennie. Spots are opening for Green too as players drop like flies with form and injuries.

I agree about this bias @lilshmike but that goes for most people. It's hard to view a game without preconceived ideas coming into people's heads. Comparing MLS and 2bund defenders I just don't think mls defenders understand tactics and I think that's where the comparison gets hard. But Lletget does well when he plays for USA and that's what's important. I think Green gets called in this next camp and he needs to show up.
I wouldn't bet money on it, but I won't be surprised if it happens. The reality is that he plays in a crowded position on the field. Hes competing against McKennie, Adams, Aaronson, Musah (assuming he accepts a call up), potentially Reyna, and you could throw in Morales and Johnny too...

Truth is that Green is on the outside looking in because we aren't going to call up 8 CMs for a game. If he isn't called in, no big deal tbh. We have better players in a crowded area of the field assuming we bring in a full strength side.

But if Lletget gets brought over Green in March.. yeah, that could be head scratching simply because the European friendlies should be almost entirely European based. It happened once before, no big deal with covid restrictions and things like that because I'm sure there were circumstances that we're not aware of that highly influenced some decisions... but I'll admit that if that EXACT scenario happens again then thats pretty lame.

hamsamwich
Post #69
Monday February 22, 2021 7:59pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,697
I think Green is more goal dangerous whereas Lletget offers more around the field. I could see green playing one of the winger spots especially if Pulisic gets hurt again. No Morris... Llanez and Konrad struggling... maybe Reyna gets in on that wing but I do think both Lletget and Green should be at this camp. And then Gregg (whose opinion matters as compared to ours) can make his judgement on the players.

Gregg specifically said he wanted to call up Green and Johansson by name so I'd be surprised if they weren't there. Nice goal by Johansson by the way on a run Sargent isn't making.

Lilshmike
Post #70
Monday February 22, 2021 8:58pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
@Hamsamwich

Here is a direct quote from Berhlater:

"We've been following Julian at Fürth, he scored on the weekend and he's been doing a good job. We're just looking at his skillset compared to some other guys in the position, and how we need that role to perform, and the profile we need, and we didn't include him on that. It's not to say he has no future with the National Team, but again we have to make difficult decisions, sometimes guys get left out that are deserving of a call up as well."

Taken directly from US Soccer website.

https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2020/11/qa-g...

You still have a good point, but pointing out that Green is firmly a bubble guy in a crowded position in the pool. His omission to this point isn't a crime and does make some sense.

Best comparison to "people not getting a call and getting the shaft" is probably Acosta. A guy who at a younger age was given shots, and under GGG hasn't really gotten much of a sniff. Green and Acosta are both guys who we just seem to have moved on from. They aren't entirely out of the picture, but they're no longer seen as viable long-term or consistent options.

Philip
Post #71
Monday February 22, 2021 10:13pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 72
Is Green injured? I noticed he wasn't on the game day roster today.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #72
Monday February 22, 2021 10:14pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,473
Original post from Philip

Is Green injured? I noticed he wasn't on the game day roster today.


He got Covid

cudevil
Post #73
Monday February 22, 2021 10:28pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,249
Original post from Lilshmike

Green had a shot at the Bundesliga already and had to drop down a level.

Sure, Furth is doing well this season, but up until this they were firmly a lower to mid table 2 Bundesliga side since Green has been there.

"Having a shot" (considering he already had a shot and couldn't hack it at the time), is different from "being in the Bundesliga". Promotion is not guaranteed, and even if they do get promoted, there is no guarantee that Green will continue to be a big player for that team, as they could very likely dish out cash to strengthen their squad which could push him to the bench.

Just by simply being on a team that "has a shot" at making it into the Bundesliga does not make a player (Green in this case) better than another player (Lletget), nor does it automatically justify or warrant that player (Green) being called into the national team.

I'm not trying to be a Green hater, but quite literally the only difference between Lletget and Green at the end of the day is that one plays in Europe and the other in MLS. Lletget and Green both had some struggles, both play the same position, both failed to make an impact at the top level (EPL and Bundesliga) and both dropped down to a lower level to get time... and one has consistently over their time playing at that same level, in the same position, produced more goals and assists.

But the one in MLS who has consistently outperformed the other is supposedly "maxed out", and the other in 2 Bundesliga playing consistently at the same level as the guy in MLS is somehow worthy of being called into the national team because his team maybe might get promoted?

Bias. Right there.


No. Lletget has maxed out AND he's had LOTS of run with the Nats. Green is 25, and while he's probably close to his ceiling, it's not assured that he is AND he's barely had any run with the Nats, and nothing of late. That's why he should be called in and Lletget shouldn't.

Also, just saying that they play at similar levels, aside from being debatable, doesn't tell the entire story. The culture around the sport is so dramatically difference. By that I mean, Lletget, being an established guy, isn't under the same pressure to perform or be dropped as Green. As someone else mentioned, maybe raw skill levels are on par between 2.Bundes and MLS, but that doesn't mean the tactical awareness is the same.

Lilshmike
Post #74
Tuesday February 23, 2021 2:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from cudevil

No. Lletget has maxed out AND he's had LOTS of run with the Nats. Green is 25, and while he's probably close to his ceiling, it's not assured that he is AND he's barely had any run with the Nats, and nothing of late. That's why he should be called in and Lletget shouldn't.

Also, just saying that they play at similar levels, aside from being debatable, doesn't tell the entire story. The culture around the sport is so dramatically difference. By that I mean, Lletget, being an established guy, isn't under the same pressure to perform or be dropped as Green. As someone else mentioned, maybe raw skill levels are on par between 2.Bundes and MLS, but that doesn't mean the tactical awareness is the same.
Green has 15 caps with the USMNT to Lletget's 18. They've practiy gotten the same number of opportunities, so your first points are a bit off base.

But your argument is that because Green hasn't been called in in a while, he deserves to get called up now? That doesn't make sense. The USMNT shouldn't be charity.

You're also using fluffy stuff that sounds good to justify one guy playing in one league over another... but the fact still remains... MLS and 2 Bundesliga are basically the same level. It's a radically difficult argument to make otherwise. And remember, it's not like Green has been pushing for promotion his entire time at Furth, they have been a bottom to mid table team up until this season. Is the bottom half of 2 Bundesliga a step up from MLS? No.

2 guys, both playing the same position in CM, both playing at relatively the same level, and one of those guys has consistently outperformed the other and produced more goals and assists than the other. Both have had relatively the same number of USMNT opportunities. But the guy who has been the lower performer deserves a chance over the guy who has been the higher performer, simply because the lower performing guy plays in Europe - which is different from MLS...

That is basically the argument you are making. That's bias.

hamsamwich
Post #75
Tuesday February 23, 2021 6:09pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,697
I'm gonna go back to the watching the game with your eyes. Green has always been a guy who has technique and is quick to take a scoring opportunity, whether that be a long shot, free kick, run to the back post, first time shot on a pass coming into the box. I think Lletget is completely different. Likes to carry the ball and keep possession. Is secure in his tackling and defensive position. I haven't seen much of Lletget making the key passes or blast shots, but that doesn't mean he isn't effective. While they may play a similar starting position their roles are completely different. I still think Green is the more likely to be an impact sub whereas I see Lletget as a guy used to press and play hard for 60-70 minutes.

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