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Lilshmike
Post #16
Saturday January 30, 2021 8:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from Dave

You've selected the wrong player to use as an example. Julian Green has played for 3 different clubs (BM, Stuttgard, Firth) across 2 different leagues (B1 & B2).
Long has played for a single club (reserves & 1st team)....so he's only been exposed to one culture in his professional career.
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If Long does happen to move to an EPL Team...good for him. He's a decent player (when in form) and potentially could contribute to a mid-table club somewhere.
However, at 28 and with his consistency issues, don't believe he's a worthy inked in starter for the USMNT.
Unfortunately Gregg has only really auditioned 5 CBs (Brooks, Long, Ream, Zimmerman, Miazga)...he's given token call-ups to M. Robinson, McKenzie, & Richards...but has not given them much in the way of opportunities to prove themselves. Gregg appears to be reluctant to give young CBs a chance
No... Julian Green is a fine example. Hes played primarily in the 2nd division and lower. He never got a league appearance with Munich. He only has 5 Bundesliga appearances on loan at a team who was one of the worst in the league - to his credit.

Long has played for multiple clubs, and worked his way up from USL defender of the year to MLS defender of the year. Hes made multiple stops along the way. And I've never noticed any consistency issues with Long. That's never been established or noted by anyone (to my knowledge at least) when talking out his ability or performances. Kinda like Pepe at Arsenal, or Pogba at United, for example. That's an unfounded knock against Long.

Just pointing out that you're factually inaccurate with your statement on both Long and Green.

This is an example of inconsistent standards. If you're in MLS, you suck. If you're in Eruope, regardless of what league or team you're in, you're somehow automatically considered better and the same standards don't apply.

Dave
Post #17
Saturday January 30, 2021 11:08pm

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,192
Original post from Lilshmike

This is an example of inconsistent standards. If you're in MLS, you suck. If you're in Eruope, regardless of what league or team you're in, you're somehow automatically considered better and the same standards don't apply.


I've nothing against MLS players and disagree that "if you're in MLS you suck". There are multiple players in Europe I don't want to see called into camp because they've been tried and proven they can't cut it...Ream, Moralez, etc...
What I want is to see players be given an equal opportunity. In the Case of Long; we're seen multiple camps over the last 2 years with the exact same CB options called up (Brooks, Ream, Long, Zimmerman, Miazga). Yet the defense has continued to allow weak teams (Canada, Panama, etc...) to make them look foolish. I want Gregg to give other CBs an honest chance at showing they're better (EPB, CCV, Richards, MacKenzie)....the fact that the next in Line are all over in Europe is inconsequential to me.
In the case of Green he is one of the very few legacy players who haven't even received as camp under Gregg. Instead we've seen Roldan called up for nearly every camp since Gregg took charge. Yet Roldan has failed to produce at the international level. I've got no issue with Lletget being part of the conversation, or Aaronson, but Green's continued absence has made no since considering the form he's been in over the last 18 months. This is showing favoritism to Roldan and a Snubbing Green.
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I'm tired of Gregg's belief that Veteran players are needed, and have a place in the team ahead of young players strictly on the # of games they've played or what they've done in the past.
If Cardosa, Perea, CCV, Soto, Dike, etc... are the better player or playing better they should be on the team ahead of Jozy, Ream, Long, etc... Yes we are a young team, but the current Core of players (McKennie, Adams, Pulisic, Brooks) have plenty of leadership skills and they can lead the team by example, we don't need the dead weight holding us back.
If I were to name a 23 right now for a WCQ Game I'd go with:
Attakers (6):
Pulisic, Reyna, Sargent, Morris, Weah, Soto/Dike
Midfield (6):
Adams, McKennie, Musah, Lletget, Green, Yueill/Cardoso/Otasowie
Defense (8):
Brooks, Miazga, McKenzie, Richards, Dest, A. Robinson, Cannon, TBD
Keeper (3):
Steffen, Turner/Johnson/Horvath

Worst case scenario would be 2 current MLS players on the roster, 4 if you count recent transfers to Europe (McKenzie & Cannon). Best case would include 6 current MLS players or 8 if you count recent transfers (McKenzie & Cannon).

Samtom23
Post #18
Sunday January 31, 2021 1:23am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 574
Original post from Dave

You've selected the wrong player to use as an example. Julian Green has played for 3 different clubs (BM, Stuttgard, Firth) across 2 different leagues (B1 & B2).
Long has played for a single club (reserves & 1st team)....so he's only been exposed to one culture in his professional career.
-
If Long does happen to move to an EPL Team...good for him. He's a decent player (when in form) and potentially could contribute to a mid-table club somewhere.
However, at 28 and with his consistency issues, don't believe he's a worthy inked in starter for the USMNT.
Unfortunately Gregg has only really auditioned 5 CBs (Brooks, Long, Ream, Zimmerman, Miazga)...he's given token call-ups to M. Robinson, McKenzie, & Richards...but has not given them much in the way of opportunities to prove themselves. Gregg appears to be reluctant to give young CBs a chance


Just a correction-Long was drafted by Portland, then loaned to a USL. He then made his way to Seattle but never was on the first team. Then, Marsch took a chance on him on a new position as a CB and there he flourished under Marsch. (I like Marsch more than GB partly because of his player recognition.)

I do tend to agree that GB is reluctant to try young CB's. But CB's are better when they have a bit more experience.

But I wouldn't compare Green with Long at all because different positions. The focus here should've been midfield players-Lleget and Roldan.

I think Roldan is a waste of time. He has shown incapable so, I would rather have a younger player that shows more potential.

Philip
Post #19
Sunday January 31, 2021 1:46am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 72
I wasn't comparing Long and Green as players. I was simply saying that if playing in one league is a reason not to call up a player then that also applies to Green. He has about the same amount of experience outside the 2.bundesliga as Long does outside MLS. John Brooks has never played outside of Germany but no one questions his inclusion. You can question the level of play in MLS but it is at least on par with 2.bundesliga. Hopefully both Green and Long are given a chance to prove themselves at a higher level. And I hope they succeed.

Samtom23
Post #20
Sunday January 31, 2021 2:51am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 574
Original post from Philip

I wasn't comparing Long and Green as players. I was simply saying that if playing in one league is a reason not to call up a player then that also applies to Green. He has about the same amount of experience outside the 2.bundesliga as Long does outside MLS. John Brooks has never played outside of Germany but no one questions his inclusion. You can question the level of play in MLS but it is at least on par with 2.bundesliga. Hopefully both Green and Long are given a chance to prove themselves at a higher level. And I hope they succeed.


Nice to see Jordan Morris getting his debut for Swansea.

blaise213
Post #21
Sunday January 31, 2021 10:00pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,359
Not to knock the American youngsters coming out of MLS but it seems like there is a decline in talent from the younger generation in Europe.

I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

stoked-3
Post #22
Monday February 1, 2021 12:25am

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 190
Original post from Lilshmike

No... Julian Green is a fine example. Hes played primarily in the 2nd division and lower. He never got a league appearance with Munich. He only has 5 Bundesliga appearances on loan at a team who was one of the worst in the league - to his credit.

Long has played for multiple clubs, and worked his way up from USL defender of the year to MLS defender of the year. Hes made multiple stops along the way. And I've never noticed any consistency issues with Long. That's never been established or noted by anyone (to my knowledge at least) when talking out his ability or performances. Kinda like Pepe at Arsenal, or Pogba at United, for example. That's an unfounded knock against Long.

Just pointing out that you're factually inaccurate with your statement on both Long and Green.

This is an example of inconsistent standards. If you're in MLS, you suck. If you're in Eruope, regardless of what league or team you're in, you're somehow automatically considered better and the same standards don't apply.


The good news is you started 2021 off where you left off, quick to be ready to "call people out" if they do not hold your opinion. @Dave post didnt at all say what you read into, but just as you accuse people on here as being Euro biased you are certainly MLS bias. For the record I think Long has played fine for the US, great no, but would I rather him playing every week in MLS at this stage in his career, or sitting on the bench and practicing with Liverpool 1st team, or playing mid level Champ team, all day I want him overseas-I think he has the talent to play across the pond and has wanted too. The point most of make is mls guys get multple looks its harder for fringe euro guys to get looks.

Good news is GB is going to call in Green an Arjo--and once again Jozy is hurt so we wont be seeing him for a while.

Lilshmike
Post #23
Monday February 1, 2021 3:28pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from stoked-3

The good news is you started 2021 off where you left off, quick to be ready to "call people out" if they do not hold your opinion. @Dave post didnt at all say what you read into, but just as you accuse people on here as being Euro biased you are certainly MLS bias. For the record I think Long has played fine for the US, great no, but would I rather him playing every week in MLS at this stage in his career, or sitting on the bench and practicing with Liverpool 1st team, or playing mid level Champ team, all day I want him overseas-I think he has the talent to play across the pond and has wanted too. The point most of make is mls guys get multple looks its harder for fringe euro guys to get looks.

Good news is GB is going to call in Green an Arjo-and once again Jozy is hurt so we wont be seeing him for a while.
No... theres nothing in my post about not sharing the same opinion. Dave made a pair of false statements on Green and Long. I pointed that out.

Not only was he factually inaccurate on the guys, the standard being applied to Green about having more cultured experiences (when that's totally debatable) need be applied to Long as well when they both (debateably) have had pretty much the same number of cultures and experiences and have made their careers at a similar level - just in two different countries.

And considering we play most of our games in this region of the world or on home turf in the USA, and we have fringe Euro guys - not starters or solid 23 type players, but fringe guys - playing on the other side of the world, it's easier to call in the MLS players... so it makes complete and total sense why some seemingly get "overlooked" or have to "try harder" to get a call to the USMNT. It's not because of some bias or inconsistent standard... its because we have not been able to schedule many overseas European based friendlies and camps during GGG's tenure due in part to both covid and the UEFA Nations League.

And to the same point I made in the Julian Green thread... with guys like McKennie, Reyna, Adams, Musah, Cardoso, Aaronsen, Yueill, hell even Lletget (who plays in a similar position at a similar if not slightly higher level than Green, and who produces more goals and assists than Green in comparison)... is Green's exclusion really controversial? Is he better than the guys in front of him? Does it make sense to call him in over one of the others? I'd say no, not really.

Glad to see you're starting 2021 by attacking the messenger and not the message. You clearly don't take the time to actually read the posts and understand the points made - you simply see who it was posted by and get on a high horse. Keep up the good work.

stoked-3
Post #24
Monday February 1, 2021 4:58pm

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 190
Original post from Lilshmike

No... theres nothing in my post about not sharing the same opinion. Dave made a pair of false statements on Green and Long. I pointed that out.

Not only was he factually inaccurate on the guys, the standard being applied to Green about having more cultured experiences (when that's totally debatable) need be applied to Long as well when they both (debateably) have had pretty much the same number of cultures and experiences and have made their careers at a similar level - just in two different countries.

And considering we play most of our games in this region of the world or on home turf in the USA, and we have fringe Euro guys - not starters or solid 23 type players, but fringe guys - playing on the other side of the world, it's easier to call in the MLS players... so it makes complete and total sense why some seemingly get "overlooked" or have to "try harder" to get a call to the USMNT. It's not because of some bias or inconsistent standard... its because we have not been able to schedule many overseas European based friendlies and camps during GGG's tenure due in part to both covid and the UEFA Nations League.

And to the same point I made in the Julian Green thread... with guys like McKennie, Reyna, Adams, Musah, Cardoso, Aaronsen, Yueill, hell even Lletget (who plays in a similar position at a similar if not slightly higher level than Green, and who produces more goals and assists than Green in comparison)... is Green's exclusion really controversial? Is he better than the guys in front of him? Does it make sense to call him in over one of the others? I'd say no, not really.

Glad to see you're starting 2021 by attacking the messenger and not the message. You clearly don't take the time to actually read the posts and understand the points made - you simply see who it was posted by and get on a high horse. Keep up the good work.


I certainly understand your points, I just disagree, moreover I dont appreciate your condescending tone to everyone who disagrees with you or whom holds a different view than you. Oddly enough you didnt understand @Daves point, I assume it was bc he was talking about an mls player and you were so quick to write a defense of mls you had to post

cudevil
Post #25
Monday February 1, 2021 5:12pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,252
Original post from Lilshmike

No... theres nothing in my post about not sharing the same opinion. Dave made a pair of false statements on Green and Long. I pointed that out.

Not only was he factually inaccurate on the guys, the standard being applied to Green about having more cultured experiences (when that's totally debatable) need be applied to Long as well when they both (debateably) have had pretty much the same number of cultures and experiences and have made their careers at a similar level - just in two different countries.

And considering we play most of our games in this region of the world or on home turf in the USA, and we have fringe Euro guys - not starters or solid 23 type players, but fringe guys - playing on the other side of the world, it's easier to call in the MLS players... so it makes complete and total sense why some seemingly get "overlooked" or have to "try harder" to get a call to the USMNT. It's not because of some bias or inconsistent standard... its because we have not been able to schedule many overseas European based friendlies and camps during GGG's tenure due in part to both covid and the UEFA Nations League.

And to the same point I made in the Julian Green thread... with guys like McKennie, Reyna, Adams, Musah, Cardoso, Aaronsen, Yueill, hell even Lletget (who plays in a similar position at a similar if not slightly higher level than Green, and who produces more goals and assists than Green in comparison)... is Green's exclusion really controversial? Is he better than the guys in front of him? Does it make sense to call him in over one of the others? I'd say no, not really.

Glad to see you're starting 2021 by attacking the messenger and not the message. You clearly don't take the time to actually read the posts and understand the points made - you simply see who it was posted by and get on a high horse. Keep up the good work.


Sounds like you are suggesting that it's not bias, it's laziness. Not a great defense.

dunlopp9987
Post #26
Monday February 1, 2021 6:12pm

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 2,652
Dike off to Barnsley
COYB!!
stoked-3
Post #27
Monday February 1, 2021 7:07pm

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 190
Original post from dunlopp9987

Dike off to Barnsley


Didnt see that one coming and certainly not the amount to keep him either hope he does well.

Looks like Arriola will join Morris -I think that will be really good for him

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #28
Monday February 1, 2021 8:19pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,476
Nice move for him. He has the tools and it looks like unless you want to be active in the summer tournaments you need to be playing elsewhere if there's a work stoppage in MLS.

Championship moves are perfect for guys like Dike and Arriola.

Lilshmike
Post #29
Monday February 1, 2021 8:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from stoked-3

I certainly understand your points, I just disagree, moreover I dont appreciate your condescending tone to everyone who disagrees with you or whom holds a different view than you. Oddly enough you didnt understand @Daves point, I assume it was bc he was talking about an mls player and you were so quick to write a defense of mls you had to post
You can interpret my tone from text on a post all you want.

But are you telling me that Dave, who stated that Long has only ever been at 1 club, is correct? No, he was mistaken. That's not opinion, that's fact.

I understand the point he was trying to make, but he wasn't accurate with the evidence he was using to try and support it. That's not a disagreement in viewpoint, and I'm not trying to knock him, that's straight up pointing out that he wasn't factual.

So again, you're not really looking at what I'm saying, you just have a personal problem with me and want to pick arguments or take jabs because of it. That's fine, but don't get on some moral high horse when you're exhibiting a lot of the same that you accuse me of.

Lilshmike
Post #30
Monday February 1, 2021 8:53pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,602
Original post from cudevil

Sounds like you are suggesting that it's not bias, it's laziness. Not a great defense.
Is covid or UEFA Nations League (which has limited the ability of European nations to take part in international friendlies, especially against non-Euro competition) indicative of laziness? No. It's just poor circumstances. Its reality.

There are only so many windows, so many players, and so many opportunities. Sometimes guys are stuck on the outside looking in. Green is one of those guys at the moment. Pretty straight forward.

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