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Lilshmike
Post #61
Thursday October 15, 2020 6:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
@Hamsamwich

Thinking more about the Hurts comment, you're actually helping my point...

Hurts won the national championship his second year at Alabama. He led them the entire season, and it wasn't until half time of the national championship where he got benched for Tua, a freshman.

So the more experienced older player, Hurts, led the team through conference play up until the national championship before Tua, the younger inexperienced guy with a higher ceiling, came in and provided a spark. Tua wasn't the one relied upon to get Alabama to that game... it was Hurts. And over time, Tua took the starting spot... he wasn't given it day one.

Hahaha thanks for helping strengthen my point!

Know Nothing
Post #62
Thursday October 15, 2020 9:53pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,827
Original post from Lilshmike

Whereas I look at it and say, this isn't moving the needle for us and this isn't a big deal.


Yes, that is an issue.

I have agreed with calling in Arriola simply because you know he will give you 100% all the time. Effort can be good and infectious and keeps training robust. I realize he is not among our most talented players, but players like that keep others accountable. I can accept calling in Morris since he has played well when given a shirt. But in the case of Cristian Roldan, it became apparent he was not up to it but he still lingered much longer than needed in the team.

But if the needle isn't moving, that means you are content with what you have...we should never be content unless we are fully satisfied we have the best players available to us. When things start to go stale or other teams figure you out, you need to refreshen things.

Lilshmike
Post #63
Friday October 16, 2020 3:20pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
Original post from Know Nothing

Yes, that is an issue.

I have agreed with calling in Arriola simply because you know he will give you 100% all the time. Effort can be good and infectious and keeps training robust. I realize he is not among our most talented players, but players like that keep others accountable. I can accept calling in Morris since he has played well when given a shirt. But in the case of Cristian Roldan, it became apparent he was not up to it but he still lingered much longer than needed in the team.

But if the needle isn't moving, that means you are content with what you have...we should never be content unless we are fully satisfied we have the best players available to us. When things start to go stale or other teams figure you out, you need to refreshen things.
You're taking my statement out of context.

With respect to the needle moving... calling in some random euro youth/reserve kid... simply for the purpose of training and to "take a look" as you have been and are currently advocating... I do not see a training session as an event that moves the needle for our national team.

If a kid, who has not broken into their club team, is called in with the sole purpose of training... how will that help us win games? It won't... quite simply because that kid won't even be playing in the game.

I want as many of our young kids on as many of the top teams around the world trying to break in. I personally would rather do everything I can to help those kids continue their development and be successful for their club team, than try to push them into our national team at a young age before they're ready.

The USMNT did not develop Gio Reyna by calling him into a training session... Dortmund helped keep the development of Reyna going.

The USMNT did not develop Konrad by calling him in for a training session... Barcelona helped keep his development going at the club.

The USMNT did not develop Dest by calling him in for a training session... Dest developed at Ajax and got called into the USMNT once he was at a point where he was ready to be called in.

I'm not content with what we have, but the only way to change that is through better player. The only way to get better players is through time. As time continues, more kids are going to Europe, more kids are developing at their clubs, and more kids are improving and becoming better players available for selection for the national team.

All this being said, I'm fine with calling a random kid for training in a camp so long as the circumstances surrounding that specific player makes sense - position, other players in the pool, location of camp, timing of the camp, team the kid plays for, etc.

...but one training session isn't going to move the needle to improve our national team. That kid, their ability to play and produce for the first teams at their clubs, directly influences their ability and potential to grow and improve and become a better player.

We need more better players. Better players are developed through clubs... not the national team.

stoked-3
Post #64
Tuesday October 20, 2020 12:21am

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 97
Original post from Lilshmike

@BGC6
@Know Nothing
@Stoked-3

Bringing this back to the high school recruit example with Arkansas...

Again... context is required. Context.

In my example, the reality would be that college isn't a 4-year term, but rather a 10 to 12 year term with a conference championship taking place every 4 years. Our high school recruits who have yet to see the field don't know the X's and O's, and although have the potential to be good, in their first freshman year there is a team full of guys who have years and years of experience ahead of them.

Why does all of this matter, and why does it make sense? Because we are talking about the job of the coach. The job of the coach, at a macro level, is win.

Sure, these recruits may have way higher ceilings to the guys in front of them, but the older guys, the guys who have been at Arkansas for 6,7,8 years... they have developed to where their floor is defined, they know the X's and O's, the coach knows what they're going to get out of them, and they've gotten years of experience playing against their opponents and know what they're up against.

So, as a coach who wants to win, that coach wouldn't throw out all those recruits out day one. They would integrate them in slowly, letting them learn, gain experience, and earn their place. EXACTLY as has been happening with the national team.

Why wouldn't shouldn't we throw out all those recruit and say screw the people who are in front of them on the depth chart on day 1? Well again, context. These recruits are in the first year of their 10-12 year college career, entering their first championship cycle... playing against other teams who have both superior recruits and superior experienced veteran players who have been through championships before.

If the coach said on day 1 that all of these high school recruits, with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 veteran players, were now the starters without any games or experience, and then we went into a conference championship with the likes of Alabama and LSU and Georgia... Arkansas would get absolutely smoked.

So, bringing this full circle, and back to my point about this whole situation and WC cycle being a double edged sword for GGG...

Hes damned if he does, damned if he doesn't for most on this site. The job of the coach is to ultimately win games....

If he plays a bunch of veterans or older experienced players and we win some games, everyone is up in arms because some random kid on a youth team in Europe or who has a couple sub appearances to his name wasn't called in, everyone will be up in arms crying about how dumb Berhalter is and how he should be fired for not selecting that kid.

If he plays a mix of experienced guys and young recruits, and we lose lose some games, everyone will be up in arms claiming that its the fault of the experienced players and that Berhalter was dumb for not selecting more young recruits.

If Berhalter plays a bunch of freshman and high school recruits (which has not happened yet), a bunch of guys that are youth players on teams in Europe, or to this point have been reserve players at their clubs with little to no first team playing experience... well the reality is that we would likely lose most games and have absolutely no shot at winning a conference championship against teams filled with equally if not higher talented recruits and a squads full of far superior veterans. At which point, everyone will be up in arms about how it wasn't the fault of the kids, it was Berhalters fault because he is a bad coach and doesn't know what he is doing...

There is no scenario where you guys won't get mad and cry about the result and blame Berhalter. None. The reality is that while everyone has been crying about some of these MLS guys... at the time, in context, they were the best we had (and in some situations, still have).

The reality is that when you stack our pool up against other nations in the world... we are still a far ways off. Right now we are a good CONCACAF team. We can't even say that we are the best team in our region. We are realistically still behind Mexico. And thats before we get compared against South America and European teams. We have a lot of promise coming up and should be able to have a good team in 2026 so long as all of our young guys continue developing, but in the near term we still are far behind our rivals.

And to bring this full circle once more... the job of the coach is to win. So Berhalter needs to try and win games where he can (in competitive competition). For 2022, he has no way to win with anyone on this site. Its a double edged sword and hes doomed for failure because he either way we will likely be outmatched by our opponents, or it will require playing some guys who are potentially unfavorable to the fanbase but help get the job done (think Beckerman with Klinsmann).

If y'all don't comprehend what I have laid out, or can't understand why some of these young kids have not (and should not) been called in... there is no rationalizing with you.

I keep saying the same thing. The same things continue to happen.

Lilshmike: Player X is in a youth team in country Y. There is no way he will get called in and doesn't deserve to be called in. Player A should be getting called in because he is outperforming player X, as well as players B, C, and D, relative to their positions and leagues.
YA posters: You're stupid, a fanboy, don't understand, and want to pump MLS.
*roster comes out*
*Player A is selected, Player X is excluded*
YA Site: Blasphemy!!! Out with Berhalter!!! Hes an idiot!!!
Lilshmike: Guys, I told you. This isn't rocket science.
YA Site: The smartest guys int he room schtick is getting old, and you just want to defend the coach and pump up MLS...

I mean, it gets fairly comical when you step back and take a look at it...


Im telling you dollars to donuts you are related to GB. You mention the job of the coach is to win, but win what, friendlies, Gold Cup, WCQ, WC?

No GB is not damned if he does or does not. If GB rolled out a line up that included a couple fringe guys and lost -I wouldn't mind. But I do mind if we play cuba and we play avg/below avg mls guys and we win 5-0 I am not happy, nor are most people on this site, why, b,c as you say it doesnt move the needle.

My mind will change on bringing in fringe guys very soon as we head into WCQ-which is why most people get mad on here bc we have wasted time bringing in sub par guys and we are running out of time to test new guys.

When our high school guys are better than the college starters then you play the high school guys. Its all about how you evaluate talent. In theory what you say has merrit-it would be ideal for our guys to be playing week in and out at top clubs but that is not the case-we are really close to that- but when we have a couple guys who have not broken in to the starting 11 at a top club and they have more potential or are currently better than the guys who play in a lesser league I have a problem with that. again it is all how you evaluate talent.

ULY is a great example: in your evaluate he would not get called in-but yet when he came in he was one of the best on the field. Same with Green- will all the fringe guys produce nope, but if we can call in multiple times avg mlsers we surely can call in euro guys or young mls guys it shouldnt take multiple call ups to realize some of our mls callups are no good on the int level.

Most everyone on this site comprehends what you are saying, we just disagree with you -reading through other sites you are in the minority with your opinions.

you also mentioned we are not good enough to do well this WC. so wouldn't you want him to test out the guys who would help him in 2026?

But back to this WC, we have the players to advance in the WC-they are not high school hyped players. We have a team that is getting the exposure and experience of playing day in and out with the best players in the world. Therefore, I expect them to do well in 22-

hamsamwich
Post #65
Tuesday October 20, 2020 9:01am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,446
There's a difference between Berhalter being the coach of the national team- and the national team hiring the best guy for the job. Admiring the way his crew teams played and yet he was given the job before he was ready. Never really developing while winning, Gregg always brought in proven guys like Higuain, and while many say Trapp in his column, he is the exact same player as when he was u20 captain so I'm not gonna give Gregg much credit there.
It's a strange fit- a coach brought into coach and mold young players into a new style and bring credibility back by winning games- this specific coach has never shown that. He gets players to buy in to his style as seen at the Crew, but as a club coach he imported talent mostly from outside this country. Not really an option as the national team coach. Got to use what you have and make that work. I like Gregg but hiring him too soon (he never won anything or really brought along any young Americans) and under a cloud of suspicion (to put it mildly) a year late has really made this more difficult than it needs to be.

In over two years the World Cup will be competed and by then the squad will be deep enough for the USA to show what they have. Gregg needs to step it up. The next friendlies the full team will be together. Now the excuse will be (understandably) that covid has ruined preparations and we look poor because of that. For once under Gregg I'd like to see the team look functional, efficient and yes a little athletic. We've been hesitant, weak defensively and stale offensively. For all the talk about what Gregg can do or not do- it's time for him to put an idea and a product on the field. We are nearing the qualifiers and so he needs to come up with something that works. I'm sure he will.

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