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Benhamin13
Washington, DC
Post #61
Tuesday June 23, 2020 12:38pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 52
Both of your arguments seem logical. I enjoy reading these posts when they don't get too personal (although sometimes it is fun to see the bickering). Everyone has an opinion. If there is a preference, as some of you write, towards calling in MLS players, that has to stop. Unbelievable. I hope there is no politics involved. Just seems like the guys playing in Europe are there for a reason, their talent.

The process of evaluating, calling in players, and qualification is fascinating and stressful for me. This younger generation is spectacular to watch and read about. Looking forward to following this process. And reading your posts.

hamsamwich
Post #62
Tuesday June 23, 2020 1:32pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,404
Many of these young guys play in the bundesliga, which is the thread we are on.

The opportunities presented are similar to those given to Landon (at Leverkusen) way back when but the difference is the players' mentalities today, they are tougher than he was. Pulisic being the torch bearer led the way, but Reyna and some of the younger guys about to go to Germany (our Wolfsburg trio of Llanez, Kobe Hernandez Foster and Bryang Kayo for example) are upping the ante as we go forward.

Tyler Adams' passing has gotten noticeably better and should push him towards the 6 role in the GGG system.

Samtom23
Post #63
Tuesday June 23, 2020 1:43pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 431
Original post from stoked-3

Actually I agree with @ham and Bjelks has some solid points, @lililmike you have a fair argument on paper but your stance leaves out subjectivity and scouting.

Ham said and I agree-how do you perform with the Nats-I have been saying this all along. Uly playing for reserves would never be considered for a call up in @lilmike coach Nat team-but this young kid who never played with a 1st team-somehow walked into a Nats game, his 1st none the less, where nerves should have been high-and was the best player on the pitch-the MLS vets who produce in every mls match looked way inferior in touch, skill, moxy, etc If I was coach Uly would be called in.

I always come back to Julian Green -he walked into a WC game and scored while playing in a lower league. Our MLS wonder boy who always scores in mls (and who I would want on my mls team) blew it in the same game.

Are all cases going to be like that no, but that is why scouting and vision is importing.

Subjectivity plays a big part in selection. Lets look at the other side of the equation.
Timmy Chandler-That guys is WAY more skilled than most who get called into our Nats camp-BUT for me he has looked horrible for the nats-he isnt high on my list but yet he clearly plays in a better league and plays well in that league0but for him it just doesnt translate to the nats

The same would go for Morales-Could Trapp, ROldon, Yeuill, play in the bundesliga? NO NO and NO. But for me Morales for whatever reason doesnt look good when he plays for Nats-I have no clue why-maybe nerves, maybe he is out of posistion etc

Im fine with an MLS guy so long as they produce moreso than the Euro counterpart.

The reason people like me and @blelks get pissed is Euro guys dont get selected to see how they will produce

@lilmike you mention Nova but he never gets a shot-are you telling me Zardes has blown you away to the point we dont need to see Nova? Look at Jesus F he looked good last game he should get another look.

For me-Chandler is better than Morris, but for now Morris would be in my 23 and would be a late 75min sub if we need speed to stretch a team-I bet he would not have whiffed like Wondo-

That being said -his time is running short bc we have: Dest, Gio, HOlmes, Uly, I guess Tim W (who I like as striker instead of out wide) so morris will have to go overseas to hone is game if he wants to keep his spot with the Nats


I don't think Morris needs to go overseas. Werder Bremen offered him a contract in 2016 and he turned it down. If the guy wants to make his career here and he performs that shouldn't be held against him.

I cannot see that Chandler is way better than Morris. I believe that is just an argument where Chandler happens to be at a European club and has had a decent season. He has made 115 appearances for Frankfurt and scored eight goals in total in his first team career, four of which came this year.

I wouldn't start him over options that are within MLS and options outside MLS. I am not willing to call a career RB with a handful of starts at RW better at RW that is 30 years old and only plays 37% of the time our answer at right wing.

Someone mentioned a European camp which I think is a good idea. Gregg should get to see for himself what some players have to offer. And I think some clubs are unwilling to release their players if not a mandated international break, if those players going overseas. There is a physical toil making a trans Atlantic flight. But seeing 2021 we start qualifying, I don't see it happening

I wouldn't mind seeing Nova, Wright, Ferrira, and possibly Pepi if Dallas gives him playing time. Our striker situation is that depressing. I think all options should've been considered. Sargent's three goals isn't any comfort.

hamsamwich
Post #64
Tuesday June 23, 2020 1:46pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,404
I used Landon for an example because despite what you say he did not prove himself in the bundesliga. He failed and got homesick with Leverkusen and later on when handpicked by the evil Jurgen at Bayern Munich, he failed again (a big reason why Klinsmann was fired there and also why JK hated Landon for USMNT).

Comparing Morris to the useless MLS players does have a point because he performs and the other guys don't. Why does it bother you so much that most of us who can't agree on anything are all ok (not super excited, but ok) with Morris playing right now???

Samtom23
Post #65
Tuesday June 23, 2020 3:08pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 431
Theory vs Reality

There once was a little boy that wanted to know everything there was to know in the world. So the boy goes asks his dad, "Dad, how do I know everything there is to know in the world?"

The boy's father stops and thinks. He tells his son to go read the dictionary cover to cover and you'll know everything there is to know in the world. The boy goes away.

Two weeks go by and the boy goes back to his dad. "Dad, I know everything there is to know in the world but having trouble with two things."

"What's that?" Asks his father.

"The difference between theory and reality," says the boy.

So his dad thinks about it for a moment and then tells his boy to go ask his mom, if she would sleep with some dude for a million dollars. The boy goes asks his mom. "Mom, would you sleep with some guy for a million dollars?'

"Hell, yeah! It is a million dollars!"

The boy reports this to his dad. The dad says now go asks your sister.

"Hey, sis, would you sleep with some guy for a million dollars?'

"Hell, yeah! It is million dollars! the sister tells the boy.

So he goes back and tells his dad. He asks, "How does this help me tell the difference between theory and reality dad?"

His dad's response. "In theory, son, we are sitting on two million dollars. In reality, we are living with a couple of whores!"

I view the USMNT's national team in a much similar situation. In theory, we have this awesome European based team. The reality is, we have a bunch of players that are unproven and untested. To discount, MLS players just because they are indeed MLS players is over estimating where our European players are in their career development. I am not unopposed to giving a lot of them looks at camps.

bjelks
Post #66
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:04pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
@samtom23 You don't think we could be discounting top level and fringe abroad players to overestimate mls players?

@hamsamwich I don't see any objective evidence to justify gifting Morris chances over players at similar or overlapping levels that may offer more quality. I'm sorry I don't think Morris' automatic inclusion is based on his ability to be more impactful than other attacking options. I think moving on from Morris is the last step before we become world title contenders.

My point again by the difference between Landon and Jordan is at least Landon had the hunger and ambition to test himself on loan stints. Jordan has never cared about testing or proving himself bc caps have been given to him bc of his appearance and background as a marketing tool. If he's not called bc of his club level, he doesn't even have the spine to care. He's the last type of player that has To be removed for USMNT to graduate to world contender.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #67
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:07pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from Samtom23

I don't think Morris needs to go overseas. Werder Bremen offered him a contract in 2016 and he turned it down. If the guy wants to make his career here and he performs that shouldn't be held against him.

I cannot see that Chandler is way better than Morris. I believe that is just an argument where Chandler happens to be at a European club and has had a decent season. He has made 115 appearances for Frankfurt and scored eight goals in total in his first team career, four of which came this year.

I wouldn't start him over options that are within MLS and options outside MLS. I am not willing to call a career RB with a handful of starts at RW better at RW that is 30 years old and only plays 37% of the time our answer at right wing.

Someone mentioned a European camp which I think is a good idea. Gregg should get to see for himself what some players have to offer. And I think some clubs are unwilling to release their players if not a mandated international break, if those players going overseas. There is a physical toil making a trans Atlantic flight. But seeing 2021 we start qualifying, I don't see it happening

I wouldn't mind seeing Nova, Wright, Ferrira, and possibly Pepi if Dallas gives him playing time. Our striker situation is that depressing. I think all options should've been considered. Sargent's three goals isn't any comfort.


Do you think if Lewandowski played for WB he would score a lot more goals than Josh?
goalsense
bjelks
Post #68
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:13pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from Lilshmike

Again... your "corrections" are based on... what? Your personal opinion. I gave a listing of league rankings based on stats from Nate Silver a while back. Here's the link to the thread:
http://locker.yanks-abroad.com/?mode=topics&t...

No, Segunda is not above MLS... nor is Serie B. League One is far below MLS. This is based on objective stats, not personal opinion that I've subjectively twisted to fit my narrative as you continue to do.

And yeah... I've looked at the globalfootballrankings you mentioned... and they say the exact same thing that my own analysis concluded. You're trying to cherry pick numbers to fit your argument (one built entirely on bias). And the source you provided even lists MLS as higher than Segunda, Serie B, and League One. Which, again, demonstrates your argument contradicting itself.

But of course... any disagreement with your stance calls for lobbing the good ole "fanboy" title. It's getting old.


I told you what the analysis stated being that although mls as a whole is better than Serie B and Spanish 2, League One, but with the 2nd divisions there's mostly overlap and with League One there's minimal overlap.

It's just funny that you have no problem calling mls players over EPL, Bundesliga, Championship, Austrian, Argentine players but scoff at the idea of calling in players from slightly lower leagues that have lots of overlap.

If that's not bias to mls, I don't know what is
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #69
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:15pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 431
Original post from bjelks

Do you think if Lewandowski played for WB he would score a lot more goals than Josh?


Yes, definitely.

bjelks
Post #70
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:38pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from Lilshmike

@stoked-3

I know you don't like me, and that may be getting in the way of understanding what my post is about.

bjelks is saying "we should not call in player A from MLS because it is an inferior league, and should instead look at player B in (insert second division European league)"... when the player B he references plays in a league that is, quite literally from the statistical analysis that I performed and through his own soccer website source, below the level of MLS. That is essentially saying that someone isn't worthy of selection because they are in MLS and MLS sucks, but someone playing in a worse league in Europe is. That is contradictory. That is what I continuously point out.

Of course there will be some subjective opinion on player selections... but that typically comes after the objective results and performances of the players. If you have player A in MLS who scores 10 goals, and player B in Sweden who scores 13... you have an argument one way or the other to subjectively analyze and pick a player. If you have player A in MLS with 15 goals, and player B in Serie B with 3 goals... well... player B doesn't have much of an argument based on their objective stats and performances, performing worse and producing less relative to their peers in a better league (in this example, MLS).

I understand your point about not knowing what we have until we see them... but that's not how serious national teams work. Players play for their clubs, they break into the first team, produce for their position, and get called in. And FYI, Green was promised a spot at the WC if he filed his switch from Germany. Had he already been in the US system, who knows if he would have been taken.

I never agreed with Wondo being called in. There is an example of subjective analysis that could have gone one way or the other. I would never have called him in.

And to answer your question on Zardes... If I were manager, I wouldn't call him in. That being said, when he is scoring more goals than anyone else, and has done so consistently for a few years now when nobody else in the pool really has, it's not rocket science to see why he gets called in. His numbers over the last 3 years pretty much blow everyone else out of the water, except for Nova when he was in the Dutch 2nd division... playing much lower than MLS level.

I'm not opposed to Nova being called in... but his production and where he currently plays are noticeable dings against his selection when compared to someone like Ferreira. Or (like it or not) Jozy. Or (also, like it or not) Morris.

And let's call it for what it is... with a 23 man roster we would likely have 4 forwards. Ok... Sargent and Jozy make the cut. If Weah was healthy, I would be willing to strongly bet he sneaks in there. So now we have 1, maybe 2 spots up for grabs (if Weah or Jozy are hurt). How about Sabbi? Ferreira? Ebobisse? Sapong? Morris if we use him as a ST. Zardes is still in the picture as a bench option like it or not. Nova is objectively on the outside looking in until he turns his performances around, because others are performing better than him at a higher level.

The argument isn't "who deserves to get a shot based on what they've done and what they can provide"... the argument is "what name can we throw out from Europe and make a claim of fact that they are better than everyone in MLS without providing any actual evidence".

Forward is different than the other field positions when is comes to subjective analysis and input. Chandler playing RB/RM has a great argument objectively for inclusion... but subjectively you can make a case that others may be better suited for our style of play or whatever. With forwards... it really comes down to goals. Do you score, or not? If you have a striker who doesn't produce goals or assists, well then what good are they? And this isn't a devils advocate where guys have similar stats or are in the worlds best leagues... we're comparing guys with single digit goals/assists in lower level Euro leagues to guys scoring/assisting double digit goals in MLS. It's fairly straightforward.

You and I seem to be in agreement on a number of things... I'd pick Morris, I like Morales and would select him, I see Weah as a ST, don't like Wondo and don't care much for Zardes, Reyna and Dest and Holmes should be in if all are healthy, dont like Trapp or Roldan, never been a big fan of Chandler... so as I have stated multiple times, your issue seems to be less about the message and more about the messenger. Its plain as day to see.


I think it's problematic that you dismiss subjective scouting and eye tests from the evaluations of players. Just because Jordan or Zardes scores 10 goals in mls, doesnt mean they can create against France or Brazil, finish under pressure or combine with top level teammates.

Also, I disagree that striker evaluation is all about goal tallies. Work rate, combo play, technique and composure are what translate to goals at any level. And when you pick strikers w/out considering the quality of defense or difficulty of finishes, you do a disservice to players who are bettering themselves in much tougher competitive/ situations.

Regarding Jozy, scoring 15 goals in mls, or 30 in Holland 7 yrs ago, or 1 against Spain 11 yrs ago doesn't mean he can hit an open net from point blank range against Mexico today. I think we as a country have to start looking at player quality over pure numbers to graduate to world contenders.

I'll add that you were wrong on Nova. He put up 10 goals in the Eredivisie and you dismissed it but Jordan scored 10 in mls and he's a lock.

I also don't agree that Morales and Chandler have been bad for USMNT. I think they've been put in really bad spots with incompetent teammates that they've had to cover for and also think they've been scapegoated while the shortcomings of domestic players like Jozy, Morris and Long have been dismissed.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #71
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:46pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from Samtom23

Yes, definitely.


Since we're talking evidence and objectivity, can you tell me a time Lewandowski was in a relegation battle with the worst offense in the league and put up numbers?

If you can't, you're just saying he can because of his name.

I think one thing you don't think about with football is how much your team impacts your ability to score goals and get assists.

One thing to note is that as great as Ronaldo and Messi are they've never led the WC in scoring.
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #72
Tuesday June 23, 2020 4:55pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 431
Original post from bjelks

Since we're talking evidence and objectivity, can you tell me a time Lewandowski was in a relegation battle with the worst offense in the league and put up numbers?

If you can't, you're just saying he can because of his name.

I think one thing you don't think about with football is how much your team impacts your ability to score goals and get assists.

One thing to note is that as great as Ronaldo and Messi are they've never led the WC in scoring.


Are you suggesting that Sargent is better than Robert Lewandowski?

Lilshmike
Post #73
Tuesday June 23, 2020 6:26pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,471
Original post from bjelks

I told you what the analysis stated being that although mls as a whole is better than Serie B and Spanish 2, League One, but with the 2nd divisions there's mostly overlap and with League One there's minimal overlap.

It's just funny that you have no problem calling mls players over EPL, Bundesliga, Championship, Austrian, Argentine players but scoff at the idea of calling in players from slightly lower leagues that have lots of overlap.

If that's not bias to mls, I don't know what is
What does that even mean? Your statement makes no sense. You're making the claim that players in MLS shouldn't be considered because it is an inferior league... then suggesting that players in European leagues that are below MLS (by your own source) should get called in. You're contradicting yourself and trying to use a "yeah, but" framework to justify your faulty, contradictory stance.

Those 3 leagues that you mentioned, by your own source, are below the level of MLS. End of debate. No "yeah, but" scenarios. You need to find another argument.

And... who exactly am I calling for in MLS, and who exactly in EPL, Bundesliga, Championship, Austria, or Argentina am I saying that should be overlooked in favor of a player in MLS? I'm legitimately doing no such thing. Like, what are you even talking about right now?

The only thing I am doing, and continue to do, is point out your inconsistent, contradicting logic. You're getting too offended and hunkering down on a faulty argument instead of accepting your fault.

If you wanted to say... "Although Nova has been poor this season, we don't have many forwards who are producing. I don't care for Zardes, and I think that Nova could be decent to select and throw him in a game because he is tall and gives us an advantage on set pieces"... yeah, then thats a pretty good argument and you have something solid to defend your subjective opinion.

But that is not what you're doing. You're taking your subjective opinion, claiming it as subjective fact, using a source that doesn't support your argument, and trying to attach a "yeah, but" to it in order to avoid being wrong initially that those leagues are better than MLS.

But of course, pointing that out makes one a puppet for USSF, a fanboy, and displays a bias for MLS... yawn.

Lilshmike
Post #74
Tuesday June 23, 2020 6:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,471
Again, used subjective twice when meant to say objective. Objective fact.

@Samtom23

"In theory, we have this awesome European based team. The reality is, we have a bunch of players that are unproven and untested. To discount MLS players just because they are indeed MLS players is over estimating where our European players are in their career development."

^^^This, right here, is spot on. In theory, we should have a much better team. The reality is that we just aren't there yet. And by just randomly selecting and playing a bunch of unproven, untested players... it likely won't do anything to move us forward or move the needle.

Also, the reality is (as I continue to state) that we have had a very bad 12-18 months in the injury department. There have been a ton of players hurt and unavailable for selection - particularly for guys in Europe - leading to no other choice than MLS guys getting called in. Given everyone is healthy and in form playing, our team would likely be 75-80% based in Europe. This isn't a huge debate really.

bjelks
Post #75
Tuesday June 23, 2020 8:56pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from Samtom23

Are you suggesting that Sargent is better than Robert Lewandowski?


I'm suggesting that you seem to not know or are purposely ignoring the fact that scoring goals is more about the team than the individual. I think you are making the mistake of blaming Sargent's lack of scoring on his inability and not his lack of chances.
goalsense
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