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hamsamwich
Post #46
Monday June 22, 2020 2:27pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,396
Original post from bjelks

I honestly don't see any value in trying to project what Gregg is going to do, we can make a strong argument that he's not even qualified for the job.
The conversation should be, what should Gregg be doing to give us our best chance to win?
Any conversation outside of that is a waste of time.

Boyd has started for Besiktas the last 2 months, you can't ignore him
Gooch is rumored to go to Middlesbrough, you can't ignore that
Konrad is linked to Hertha Berlin and set to play in Segunda, can't ignore that
Forlarin is the top Young striker in the Arsenal system, can't ignore that
Nova is set for promotion to Serie A, can't ignore that

We're in no position to be setting mls quotas and limits to the pool
I evaluate the player not the league when it comes to calling in players. I like the MLS and am a fan but don't support the Arena logic that has been used before.

That said, I prefer Morris to Boyd, Gooch, Konrad, and the two strikers- at least currently where we are right now. I think he has better awareness than those guys and has worked on his left foot. He's also faster to get in behind. I can be disappointed he pulled a Donovan but he still has something to offer.

Not against calling in any of the guys mentioned but I think for all the average play we've seen from Roldan and Zimmerman from the MLS, Morris has been a cut above them, and also Zardes and Yueill.

bjelks
Post #47
Monday June 22, 2020 2:38pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Interesting analysis on Weston Mckennie being the 3rd best player in the Bundesliga since the restart.

Brian Kleiban lost major credibility with me saying Trapp would be better lol.

https://twitter.com/dmueller1986/status/12749...
goalsense
bjelks
Post #48
Monday June 22, 2020 3:07pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from hamsamwich

I evaluate the player not the league when it comes to calling in players. I like the MLS and am a fan but don't support the Arena logic that has been used before.

That said, I prefer Morris to Boyd, Gooch, Konrad, and the two strikers- at least currently where we are right now. I think he has better awareness than those guys and has worked on his left foot. He's also faster to get in behind. I can be disappointed he pulled a Donovan but he still has something to offer.

Not against calling in any of the guys mentioned but I think for all the average play we've seen from Roldan and Zimmerman from the MLS, Morris has been a cut above them, and also Zardes and Yueill.


Unfortunately you cannot evaluate the player without considering the league he plays in with so much variability in world football. It's also hard to believe someone who likes and supports mls, but doesn't believe League matters would think any differently than Arena. That is his exact philosophy.

I think it's hard to prove Morris' awareness when he's been ineffective in creating anything when competition steps up against Mexico or games get tough like away to Canada. No matter how much he's worked on his left foot, it's still cringeworthy to look at and I've never seen Morris dribble in behind. If you have video, I'd like to see it. But his dribbling in my opinion is awful. Tim Chandler's dribbling is also awful, but his crossing, finishing, defending is another level.

I wouldn't agree that he pulled a "Donovan" bc Donovan proved himself in several loans To Bundesliga and EPL. Morris has never tested himself for any stint outside of mls.

Furthermore, I don't think comparing Morris to worse MLS players, means he's any more useful to the national team than guys outside of MLS who haven't received opportunities. The only way we can really learn if he's more valuable to the national team is if Timmy, Boyd, Gooch, Uly, Konrad can't create or score against Cuba and Canada. A very low bar.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #49
Monday June 22, 2020 4:36pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
https://twitter.com/dmueller1986/status/12749...

Check out the Mckennie analysis pointing to him being a top 3 player in Bundesliga since the break
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #50
Monday June 22, 2020 8:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,462
Original post from bjelks

I honestly don't see any value in trying to project what Gregg is going to do, we can make a strong argument that he's not even qualified for the job.
The conversation should be, what should Gregg be doing to give us our best chance to win?
Any conversation outside of that is a waste of time.

Boyd has started for Besiktas the last 2 months, you can't ignore him
Gooch is rumored to go to Middlesbrough, you can't ignore that
Konrad is linked to Hertha Berlin and set to play in Segunda, can't ignore that
Forlarin is the top Young striker in the Arsenal system, can't ignore that
Nova is set for promotion to Serie A, can't ignore that

We're in no position to be setting mls quotas and limits to the pool
Boyd has been getting called in, don't think many (if any) think he has no place in the team.
Gooch, regardless of rumors, plays in League One (which is below the level of MLS) and will likely play there next year. That can't be ignored.
Konrad, regardless of rumors, plays in the reserves (below the level of MLS) and may crack into a consistent spot for Barca B in Segunda (another league below the level of MLS). That can't be ignored.
Folarin is a youth prospect who hasn't even played a senior game yet, playing for youth and reserve teams (below the level of MLS). That can't be ignored.
Nova is in the second division in Italy (below the level of MLS) and has underperformed there and not produced. He hasn't been promoted yet, and hasn't played a single Serie A minute. That can't be ignored.

Rumors don't mean much. It really doesn't matter if someone is linked to one club or another if they never go. Especially considering all the tabloid crap that's out there - example, Real Madrid looking at Reyna recently.

Pointing out your wild logic here... you're slamming MLS for being an inferior league and how we shouldn't call in guys from the league... then use a bunch of euro-based players playing at a level BELOW MLS to justify your position.

You need a better argument because that one legitimately contradicts itself and makes no sense.

Again, I will state that this is not in defense of MLS... I'm pointing out the inconsistent standard and the fully objective analysis (like trying to make claims on a players mentality) that you continue to apply. It's not very convincing.

Benhamin13
Washington, DC
Post #51
Monday June 22, 2020 9:10pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 52
Wild logic?? It is subjective analysis. Nicely done too. Point, counter-point. We will see if Berhalter chooses wisely....

Lilshmike
Post #52
Monday June 22, 2020 9:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,462
Original post from Benhamin13

Wild logic?? It is subjective analysis. Nicely done too. Point, counter-point. We will see if Berhalter chooses wisely....
Yeah, meant to say subjective, not objective.

bjelks
Post #53
Monday June 22, 2020 11:01pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Original post from Lilshmike

Boyd has been getting called in, don't think many (if any) think he has no place in the team.
Gooch, regardless of rumors, plays in League One (which is below the level of MLS) and will likely play there next year. That can't be ignored.
Konrad, regardless of rumors, plays in the reserves (below the level of MLS) and may crack into a consistent spot for Barca B in Segunda (another league below the level of MLS). That can't be ignored.
Folarin is a youth prospect who hasn't even played a senior game yet, playing for youth and reserve teams (below the level of MLS). That can't be ignored.
Nova is in the second division in Italy (below the level of MLS) and has underperformed there and not produced. He hasn't been promoted yet, and hasn't played a single Serie A minute. That can't be ignored.

Rumors don't mean much. It really doesn't matter if someone is linked to one club or another if they never go. Especially considering all the tabloid crap that's out there - example, Real Madrid looking at Reyna recently.

Pointing out your wild logic here... you're slamming MLS for being an inferior league and how we shouldn't call in guys from the league... then use a bunch of euro-based players playing at a level BELOW MLS to justify your position.

You need a better argument because that one legitimately contradicts itself and makes no sense.

Again, I will state that this is not in defense of MLS... I'm pointing out the inconsistent standard and the fully objective analysis (like trying to make claims on a players mentality) that you continue to apply. It's not very convincing.


Corrections:
-The bottom of MLS is on par with the top of league one
-The Spanish 2nd division is on par with mls after the top 4
-Forlarin is the top prospect in the Arsenal youth system, he'll be fine
- Italian Serie A is on par with the bottom half of mls, Nova has played well been and been rated highly by his manager
You are ill informed, a fan boy for mls, and a chronic liar.

Actually I didn't use any wild subjective logic. All the levels I provided are on par with mls.
I've even provided a globalfootballrankings.com for your reference. If you choose not to educate yourself it's your bad.

My argument is legitimate, I'm not responsible for your comprehension. If you can't objectively analyze leagues and players, again you should get a new hobby.

@lilshmike you defend mls/ sum and USSF with every post. Of course you're here to tell us the good ole boy way is the best. You are correct though, not seeking a higher level than mls when you have the chances indicates you have a weak mentality. Not here to convince you of anything, we understand that you will reject anything against the fanboy agenda.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #54
Monday June 22, 2020 11:03pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
Correction, Italian Serie B
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #55
Tuesday June 23, 2020 1:11am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,396
I rate the players. Blanket statements on league and player offer nothing to me.

I'm not going to die on the Jordan Morris hill but he's a good enough player until others pass him. The reason I included the others is because I do not believe they are in the top tier of USA player at their position while at this moment in time I believe Morris is. Depending of course on what you ask him to do. But he's played well against a Germany or the Dutch for example... and he's created on his left foot which is what I didn't think he could do when He was switched to winger. Maybe it's because it's against MLS or concacaf comp, but that's not a reason to hold that against him.

bjelks
Post #56
Tuesday June 23, 2020 2:04am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,698
I think we can all agree that Jordan wasn't good enough when asked to create against Mexico and away to Canada.

Boyd has had some poor performances for the nats, but to be frank, so has Morris. If we want to treat all players equally, we can't ignore Morris' bad performances and harp on Boyd's,
Also, it's a fact that it's harder to earn mins at Besiktas than it is at Seattle, it's also harder to get results. I don't think you should dismiss that Boyd plays at a higher level and it's more difficult to earn mins and get results than it is for Morris.

As for Gooch, he plays in a league on par with the bottom half of mls by player value and his numbers are very similar 10 goals/ 30 games to Morris 10 goals/ 24 games.

Konrad is obviously a young player but one of the most skilled we've ever had and set to play in the Segunda division which is on par with mls after the top 4.

I'm just struggling to understand why it's ok to give Morris every benefit, dismiss his shortcomings and bad games and hold against other players that they don't play in the domestic league or a top 5 league.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #57
Tuesday June 23, 2020 2:34am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,462
Original post from bjelks

Corrections:
-The bottom of MLS is on par with the top of league one
-The Spanish 2nd division is on par with mls after the top 4
-Forlarin is the top prospect in the Arsenal youth system, he'll be fine
- Italian Serie A is on par with the bottom half of mls, Nova has played well been and been rated highly by his manager
You are ill informed, a fan boy for mls, and a chronic liar.

Actually I didn't use any wild subjective logic. All the levels I provided are on par with mls.
I've even provided a globalfootballrankings.com for your reference. If you choose not to educate yourself it's your bad.

My argument is legitimate, I'm not responsible for your comprehension. If you can't objectively analyze leagues and players, again you should get a new hobby.

@lilshmike you defend mls/ sum and USSF with every post. Of course you're here to tell us the good ole boy way is the best. You are correct though, not seeking a higher level than mls when you have the chances indicates you have a weak mentality. Not here to convince you of anything, we understand that you will reject anything against the fanboy agenda.
Again... your "corrections" are based on... what? Your personal opinion. I gave a listing of league rankings based on stats from Nate Silver a while back. Here's the link to the thread:
http://locker.yanks-abroad.com/?mode=topics&t...

No, Segunda is not above MLS... nor is Serie B. League One is far below MLS. This is based on objective stats, not personal opinion that I've subjectively twisted to fit my narrative as you continue to do.

And yeah... I've looked at the globalfootballrankings you mentioned... and they say the exact same thing that my own analysis concluded. You're trying to cherry pick numbers to fit your argument (one built entirely on bias). And the source you provided even lists MLS as higher than Segunda, Serie B, and League One. Which, again, demonstrates your argument contradicting itself.

But of course... any disagreement with your stance calls for lobbing the good ole "fanboy" title. It's getting old.

PortCityFan
Louisiana
Post #58
Tuesday June 23, 2020 2:41am

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 208
I've been hanging out with my bucket of popcorn reading lately. I want to commend Bjelks for his conversations lately, a lot have actually been very constructive and I've enjoyed it. In all seriousness, Thank you.

I'm not opposed to Morris but it is make or break time for him and he should be pushed by Berhalter to make a move to Europe. We applauded Klinsmann for pushing these kids. I don't feel that players who have taken that leap should be automatically pushed in front of him, but I do feel he is an automatic domestic camp pool player for how things are run right now because we don't get to see these other kids. 2 parts to this:

A) We need more European based camps. The young kids who make the leap cant be pulled away to travel home when they are trying to battle for a spot in a club. Only the key foreign based players need to be brought in for key domestic games. But we need more opportunities to at least see how these players can exist in the setup.

B) Domestic camps should be opportunities to see 23 year and younger players to "showcase" them for a move and also to showcase the development of the league. At the end of the day if a 23 year or younger team cant beat Cuba, Puerto Rico, El Salvador, Guatemala, and to an extent Honduras and Panama then we are taking steps backwards (Hex Qualifiers not included).

stoked-3
Post #59
Tuesday June 23, 2020 3:23am

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 79
Actually I agree with @ham and Bjelks has some solid points, @lililmike you have a fair argument on paper but your stance leaves out subjectivity and scouting.

Ham said and I agree-how do you perform with the Nats-I have been saying this all along. Uly playing for reserves would never be considered for a call up in @lilmike coach Nat team--but this young kid who never played with a 1st team-somehow walked into a Nats game, his 1st none the less, where nerves should have been high-and was the best player on the pitch-the MLS vets who produce in every mls match looked way inferior in touch, skill, moxy, etc If I was coach Uly would be called in.

I always come back to Julian Green -he walked into a WC game and scored while playing in a lower league. Our MLS wonder boy who always scores in mls (and who I would want on my mls team) blew it in the same game.

Are all cases going to be like that no, but that is why scouting and vision is importing.

Subjectivity plays a big part in selection. Lets look at the other side of the equation.
Timmy Chandler-That guys is WAY more skilled than most who get called into our Nats camp-BUT for me he has looked horrible for the nats-he isnt high on my list but yet he clearly plays in a better league and plays well in that league0but for him it just doesnt translate to the nats

The same would go for Morales-Could Trapp, ROldon, Yeuill, play in the bundesliga? NO NO and NO. But for me Morales for whatever reason doesnt look good when he plays for Nats-I have no clue why-maybe nerves, maybe he is out of posistion etc

Im fine with an MLS guy so long as they produce moreso than the Euro counterpart.

The reason people like me and @blelks get pissed is Euro guys dont get selected to see how they will produce

@lilmike you mention Nova but he never gets a shot-are you telling me Zardes has blown you away to the point we dont need to see Nova? Look at Jesus F he looked good last game he should get another look.

For me-Chandler is better than Morris, but for now Morris would be in my 23 and would be a late 75min sub if we need speed to stretch a team-I bet he would not have whiffed like Wondo-

That being said -his time is running short bc we have: Dest, Gio, HOlmes, Uly, I guess Tim W (who I like as striker instead of out wide) so morris will have to go overseas to hone is game if he wants to keep his spot with the Nats

Lilshmike
Post #60
Tuesday June 23, 2020 5:05am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,462
@stoked-3

I know you don't like me, and that may be getting in the way of understanding what my post is about.

bjelks is saying "we should not call in player A from MLS because it is an inferior league, and should instead look at player B in (insert second division European league)"... when the player B he references plays in a league that is, quite literally from the statistical analysis that I performed and through his own soccer website source, below the level of MLS. That is essentially saying that someone isn't worthy of selection because they are in MLS and MLS sucks, but someone playing in a worse league in Europe is. That is contradictory. That is what I continuously point out.

Of course there will be some subjective opinion on player selections... but that typically comes after the objective results and performances of the players. If you have player A in MLS who scores 10 goals, and player B in Sweden who scores 13... you have an argument one way or the other to subjectively analyze and pick a player. If you have player A in MLS with 15 goals, and player B in Serie B with 3 goals... well... player B doesn't have much of an argument based on their objective stats and performances, performing worse and producing less relative to their peers in a better league (in this example, MLS).

I understand your point about not knowing what we have until we see them... but that's not how serious national teams work. Players play for their clubs, they break into the first team, produce for their position, and get called in. And FYI, Green was promised a spot at the WC if he filed his switch from Germany. Had he already been in the US system, who knows if he would have been taken.

I never agreed with Wondo being called in. There is an example of subjective analysis that could have gone one way or the other. I would never have called him in.

And to answer your question on Zardes... If I were manager, I wouldn't call him in. That being said, when he is scoring more goals than anyone else, and has done so consistently for a few years now when nobody else in the pool really has, it's not rocket science to see why he gets called in. His numbers over the last 3 years pretty much blow everyone else out of the water, except for Nova when he was in the Dutch 2nd division... playing much lower than MLS level.

I'm not opposed to Nova being called in... but his production and where he currently plays are noticeable dings against his selection when compared to someone like Ferreira. Or (like it or not) Jozy. Or (also, like it or not) Morris.

And let's call it for what it is... with a 23 man roster we would likely have 4 forwards. Ok... Sargent and Jozy make the cut. If Weah was healthy, I would be willing to strongly bet he sneaks in there. So now we have 1, maybe 2 spots up for grabs (if Weah or Jozy are hurt). How about Sabbi? Ferreira? Ebobisse? Sapong? Morris if we use him as a ST. Zardes is still in the picture as a bench option like it or not. Nova is objectively on the outside looking in until he turns his performances around, because others are performing better than him at a higher level.

The argument isn't "who deserves to get a shot based on what they've done and what they can provide"... the argument is "what name can we throw out from Europe and make a claim of fact that they are better than everyone in MLS without providing any actual evidence".

Forward is different than the other field positions when is comes to subjective analysis and input. Chandler playing RB/RM has a great argument objectively for inclusion... but subjectively you can make a case that others may be better suited for our style of play or whatever. With forwards... it really comes down to goals. Do you score, or not? If you have a striker who doesn't produce goals or assists, well then what good are they? And this isn't a devils advocate where guys have similar stats or are in the worlds best leagues... we're comparing guys with single digit goals/assists in lower level Euro leagues to guys scoring/assisting double digit goals in MLS. It's fairly straightforward.

You and I seem to be in agreement on a number of things... I'd pick Morris, I like Morales and would select him, I see Weah as a ST, don't like Wondo and don't care much for Zardes, Reyna and Dest and Holmes should be in if all are healthy, dont like Trapp or Roldan, never been a big fan of Chandler... so as I have stated multiple times, your issue seems to be less about the message and more about the messenger. Its plain as day to see.

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