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Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #331
Wednesday July 15, 2020 8:01pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 988
Original post from Lilshmike

@stoked-3

No... no that is not what I said at all. I am referring to your following statement:

"You just wrote Zardes deserves to be called up bc of his performance in an MLS tournament scoring 2 goals (1 nice, 1 school yard) against the worst team in the league after an extened break"

Here in fact is exactly what I stated:
Its been said before, but reading comprehension seems to be an issue on this site.

I'm not saying he deserves to be in the USMNT because he scored 2 goals against Cincy. I'm stating the obvious that whether we like it or not he is in the conversation because he continues to produce at club when others haven't.

Thanks for proving my point about heads exploding when even merely bringing up Zardes.

My point on Llanez wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the entire group. So don't take offense. And I'm not wrong on that either. Same as I haven't been wrong on Zardes. I keep saying hes sticking around... he continues to stick around... and I get called an MLS fanboy or USSF lover. No... no, I'm not. I just know what I'm talking about and point out the obvious.

And... when exactly was the last time Wondo or Omar played for the national team? Exactly. Why even bring up those names? Trapp... omg, been over this, look at his minutes for the national team... the guy is no longer playing. Same with Baird, he has 4 caps. I agree on Roldan... but Zimmerman has done enough to show he is competent and can fill in if needed. Which is exactly what his role has been thus far. Move on and find another thing to complain about or use a better example.

I'm not accusing you of bashing MLS. But for each nonsense MLS name someone can bring up, I can find another example of someone else getting called in and being given a shot from outside MLS or one of the names may people on this site call for. But people always need to find something to complain about...

But to bring it full circle... I agree there are some head scratching inclusions at times... but when people are getting mad over mentioning a guy (Zardes) getting called in at ST when we have no other STs who are putting up the same type of numbers consistently as he has been... its comical. I don't like the guy... but whether we like it or not, he keeps doing it for club when others aren't. So I will state again, it should be no surprise when he gets called in. Thats not me claiming I want to see him pull on a USMNT shirt... thats me CLEARLY stating that hes going to keep sticking around until other guys start pushing him out. That is the reality.


Well you have guys like Bjelks who compares MLS to league one in England. League one is the 3rd tier You have some who have said that some MLS teams could be in the relegation zone of the premier league. I personally feel most MLS teams would sit somewhere in the middle of the Championship. You're not going to change anyone's opinion by stating facts. I brought up a couple of years ago that Zardes had scored 20+ goals and the next highest of all our strikers was like 13 and that guy played in the 3rd division in Germany. I also said at that time I was not a fan of his but until someone better took the mantle we were stuck with Zardes. You tell me who has stepped up in all this time? I think were finally seeing Llanez and Reyna but it was a long time coming. The guys on here have their own opinions and stating facts or providing supporting evidence does no good. You will get called a us fanboy, MLS fanboy etc. if you say anything good about an MLS player that is not planning on heading to Europe. Look how everyone turned on Morris when he decided not to go to Europe.

stoked-3
Post #332
Wednesday July 15, 2020 8:01pm

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 36
Original post from Lilshmike

@stoked-3

No... no that is not what I said at all. I am referring to your following statement:

"You just wrote Zardes deserves to be called up bc of his performance in an MLS tournament scoring 2 goals (1 nice, 1 school yard) against the worst team in the league after an extened break"

Here in fact is exactly what I stated:
Its been said before, but reading comprehension seems to be an issue on this site.

I'm not saying he deserves to be in the USMNT because he scored 2 goals against Cincy. I'm stating the obvious that whether we like it or not he is in the conversation because he continues to produce at club when others haven't.

Thanks for proving my point about heads exploding when even merely bringing up Zardes.

My point on Llanez wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the entire group. So don't take offense. And I'm not wrong on that either. Same as I haven't been wrong on Zardes. I keep saying hes sticking around... he continues to stick around... and I get called an MLS fanboy or USSF lover. No... no, I'm not. I just know what I'm talking about and point out the obvious.

And... when exactly was the last time Wondo or Omar played for the national team? Exactly. Why even bring up those names? Trapp... omg, been over this, look at his minutes for the national team... the guy is no longer playing. Same with Baird, he has 4 caps. I agree on Roldan... but Zimmerman has done enough to show he is competent and can fill in if needed. Which is exactly what his role has been thus far. Move on and find another thing to complain about or use a better example.

I'm not accusing you of bashing MLS. But for each nonsense MLS name someone can bring up, I can find another example of someone else getting called in and being given a shot from outside MLS or one of the names may people on this site call for. But people always need to find something to complain about...

But to bring it full circle... I agree there are some head scratching inclusions at times... but when people are getting mad over mentioning a guy (Zardes) getting called in at ST when we have no other STs who are putting up the same type of numbers consistently as he has been... its comical. I don't like the guy... but whether we like it or not, he keeps doing it for club when others aren't. So I will state again, it should be no surprise when he gets called in. Thats not me claiming I want to see him pull on a USMNT shirt... thats me CLEARLY stating that hes going to keep sticking around until other guys start pushing him out. That is the reality.


As I replied to your comment on a dif thread. I agree with you, no I will not be shocked when he is called in, i 100 percent expect GB to call. I dont think reading comprehension is the issue. Most of this site are saying that dont want him called in; based on his play at the Int level.

Re Trapp Omar etc I gave those examples of guys who get called in multiple times when they do not produce on the Int stage. So if you guys like that can get multiple looks then someone like Uly/Green, Holmes, Robinson, Pomk, mls Robinson, Jesus F should get an equal amount of time to see if they would be a better option. We all know what Zardes brings and doesnt bring.

So suprised NO, expect a call up YES. But its a waste bc we will not learn anything new, if we try fringe guys and they do better great we added to the pool. If those guys shit the bed, then we would know we are stuck with Zardes. same with any posistion.

We know what Zimmerman brings-is he usuable sure against concacaf teams-so now that we have seen him, we know what he will bring, he will not get much better playing were he does-wouldnt in make sense to try EPB, Richards, V Alvarado, Robinson, to see how they compare to him so that you could say ok these guys would be better as a back up/starter.

Thats all I am saying if the guys who we call up are medicore and we have young guys who have a chance to be really good sitting out there not getting noticed it would behoove the program to try them out, worse case we waste a couple friednlies to find out they are not going to be a solution for us. We wasted so much time on our coaching search, trying new players, to see if they are better than the zimmermans, roldons, zardes etc doesnt seem to be like a big ask

bjelks
Post #333
Wednesday July 15, 2020 11:26pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,664
Original post from Kamphgruppe

Well you have guys like Bjelks who compares MLS to league one in England. League one is the 3rd tier You have some who have said that some MLS teams could be in the relegation zone of the premier league. I personally feel most MLS teams would sit somewhere in the middle of the Championship. You're not going to change anyone's opinion by stating facts. I brought up a couple of years ago that Zardes had scored 20+ goals and the next highest of all our strikers was like 13 and that guy played in the 3rd division in Germany. I also said at that time I was not a fan of his but until someone better took the mantle we were stuck with Zardes. You tell me who has stepped up in all this time? I think were finally seeing Llanez and Reyna but it was a long time coming. The guys on here have their own opinions and stating facts or providing supporting evidence does no good. You will get called a us fanboy, MLS fanboy etc. if you say anything good about an MLS player that is not planning on heading to Europe. Look how everyone turned on Morris when he decided not to go to Europe.


The reason I said MLS has overlap with League One is because according to team values the bottom 6 in MLS are on par with the top of League One.

Most of MLS is on par with the bottom of The Championship by team values.

The top 2-4 in MLS would be fighting for a top half spot in the Championship according to team values.

These are the facts. If you want us to respect your factual evidence, you have to respect ours.
globalfootballrankings.com

Until MLS proves that they can beat Mexican teams or South American teams or Championship teams in competitive games, I can't respect that the majority would be mid table Championship and the top would be in the EPL relegation zone.

When I present to you the disparity in team values and the poor results in CCL as why I rate the MLS where I do, it's irrational and there's no evidence behind rating MLS as mid tier EFL to bottom EPL.

I don't think there's a problem with saying anything good about MLS players, the problem is hyping them over guys that have proven more in more competition environments.
To ignore the facts of where MLS actually is to hype it up, is fanboy behavior.
goalsense
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #334
Thursday July 16, 2020 3:09am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 988
Original post from bjelks

The reason I said MLS has overlap with League One is because according to team values the bottom 6 in MLS are on par with the top of League One.

Most of MLS is on par with the bottom of The Championship by team values.

The top 2-4 in MLS would be fighting for a top half spot in the Championship according to team values.

These are the facts. If you want us to respect your factual evidence, you have to respect ours.
globalfootballrankings.com

Until MLS proves that they can beat Mexican teams or South American teams or Championship teams in competitive games, I can't respect that the majority would be mid table Championship and the top would be in the EPL relegation zone.

When I present to you the disparity in team values and the poor results in CCL as why I rate the MLS where I do, it's irrational and there's no evidence behind rating MLS as mid tier EFL to bottom EPL.

I don't think there's a problem with saying anything good about MLS players, the problem is hyping them over guys that have proven more in more competition environments.
To ignore the facts of where MLS actually is to hype it up, is fanboy behavior.


Yep, I have never done any of that, I do however listen to the coaches and players who have played in both places and how they rate MLS and Euro teams.
Looked at your site and there #1 metric is player value, that is hard to judge since MLS has a salary cap and Euro teams don't, I am not discounting it completely but your basing all this on one guys website and the formula that he came up with. I am not sure that is reliable source. I would prefer a sanctioned site or something that actual leagues or transfer markets use.

hamsamwich
Post #335
Thursday July 16, 2020 4:33am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,303
New Chicago signing Gaston Gimenez' transfer value was 4.5 M from Velez sarsfield recently. Now that he is a member of Chicago, he is worth 3.5 M. That's just one example. I do think player worth is a semi accurate gauge of the players in the league.

As for the MLS, there are players in that league that can hang (or already have) in the Prem. There are Championship level players everywhere. And definitely plenty league one level guys as well. And for sure down to league 2 level there are still a few. So it's harder to measure the "level" of MLS simply because there isn't a consistent one across the league.

The antiquated league structure still doesn't allow for easy transfers so many of these guys can't move right away to the developmental league of their choice because don garber owns their rights. Pulisic, Reyna, and the others with an EU passport who could go to Germany at 16 are the exception. Most have to wait until 18. Or haven't been properly scouted and so are past the point by 19,20 and stay in MLS. But the talent is there.

It's going to be a lot for the coach to do in a short time as the qualification gets squeezed together. That's the thing, we are counting on catching lightning in a bottle. Good thing is the disorganization can only help bring other teams down.

Samtom23
Post #336
Thursday July 16, 2020 5:49am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 343
Original post from bjelks

The reason I said MLS has overlap with League One is because according to team values the bottom 6 in MLS are on par with the top of League One.

Most of MLS is on par with the bottom of The Championship by team values.

The top 2-4 in MLS would be fighting for a top half spot in the Championship according to team values.

These are the facts. If you want us to respect your factual evidence, you have to respect ours.
globalfootballrankings.com

Until MLS proves that they can beat Mexican teams or South American teams or Championship teams in competitive games, I can't respect that the majority would be mid table Championship and the top would be in the EPL relegation zone.

When I present to you the disparity in team values and the poor results in CCL as why I rate the MLS where I do, it's irrational and there's no evidence behind rating MLS as mid tier EFL to bottom EPL.

I don't think there's a problem with saying anything good about MLS players, the problem is hyping them over guys that have proven more in more competition environments.
To ignore the facts of where MLS actually is to hype it up, is fanboy behavior.


But Morris did better than Boyd vs Mexico. But you still would rate Boyd over Morris based upon club which shows your inherit bias. And players you mention are not proven. Konrad isn't proven, he is an unknown. Uly isn't proven either but he does deserve another call. And look at recent signings by MLS. They are going younger when recruiting talent.

I think the top MLS teams can actually beat the lower of the Premier League. I would take Atlanta United over Norwich, Brighton, West Ham, Watford, Bournemouth, Aston Villa and Newcastle (time being for Newcastle if they change ownership).

I don't say this as a fan of MLS but looking at players signed and coaches. I would say that Atlanta would start struggling against teams on the level of Newcastle.

bjelks
Post #337
Thursday July 16, 2020 2:00pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,664
Original post from Kamphgruppe

Yep, I have never done any of that, I do however listen to the coaches and players who have played in both places and how they rate MLS and Euro teams.
Looked at your site and there #1 metric is player value, that is hard to judge since MLS has a salary cap and Euro teams don't, I am not discounting it completely but your basing all this on one guys website and the formula that he came up with. I am not sure that is reliable source. I would prefer a sanctioned site or something that actual leagues or transfer markets use.


Lol they're using player values from the actual Transfermarkt.
Yes MLS has a salary cap which is a barrier in it buying good players which cost more and also a barrier in its players playing against good competition which costs more.
Rooney has played in both and he's stated on a numerous occasions that MLS in not on par with the EFL, but you can believe whatever you like.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #338
Thursday July 16, 2020 2:16pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,664
Original post from Samtom23

But Morris did better than Boyd vs Mexico. But you still would rate Boyd over Morris based upon club which shows your inherit bias. And players you mention are not proven. Konrad isn't proven, he is an unknown. Uly isn't proven either but he does deserve another call. And look at recent signings by MLS. They are going younger when recruiting talent.

I think the top MLS teams can actually beat the lower of the Premier League. I would take Atlanta United over Norwich, Brighton, West Ham, Watford, Bournemouth, Aston Villa and Newcastle (time being for Newcastle if they change ownership).

I don't say this as a fan of MLS but looking at players signed and coaches. I would say that Atlanta would start struggling against teams on the level of Newcastle.


Morris was also trash against Mexico and Canada, so I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously when you show clear bias towards him and inability to evaluate players outside of MLS. How can you talk about what Uly and Konrad have proven then gloat about Morris' scoring against 3rd tier competition?
Lol, you just said the players on these MLS rosters are better than EPL players when their teams are worth significantly less. Those players and teams are worth less than most Championship sides as I've given you in my previous post.
Look I know you're a diehard MLS fan, but you're grossly overhyping them with no evidence to support it. And when MLS fans say things like you say, it takes all credit away from the league and the intelligence of the fans.

If you want to prove me wrong, you should lobby for MLS players to play competitive games against Championship and South American sides, but MLS has never even won the CCL. Until you come with more than your nationalist pride, I can't take your opinion seriously.
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #339
Thursday July 16, 2020 4:32pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 343
Original post from bjelks

Morris was also trash against Mexico and Canada, so I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously when you show clear bias towards him and inability to evaluate players outside of MLS. How can you talk about what Uly and Konrad have proven then gloat about Morris' scoring against 3rd tier competition?
Lol, you just said the players on these MLS rosters are better than EPL players when their teams are worth significantly less. Those players and teams are worth less than most Championship sides as I've given you in my previous post.
Look I know you're a diehard MLS fan, but you're grossly overhyping them with no evidence to support it. And when MLS fans say things like you say, it takes all credit away from the league and the intelligence of the fans.

If you want to prove me wrong, you should lobby for MLS players to play competitive games against Championship and South American sides, but MLS has never even won the CCL. Until you come with more than your nationalist pride, I can't take your opinion seriously.


For a moment, this should be fun. I will get sidetracked for a moment. You claim Jordan Morris is weak because not going to Europe and that is your argument against him really, not how he actually plays. He is limited technically but he gets the job done similar to Dempsey in my opinion. So I am going to apply your logic of being tough mentality and see how it works.

Looking at Atlanta United, we see that it is full of players that are mentality tough. They left there home countries to challenge themselves at one of the better leagues in the world. Let's look at the roster of mentality tough guys.

Player Position Country Age
Mo Adams MF England 23
Ezequiel Barco MF Argentina 21
Manuel Castro FW Uruguay 21
Jurgen Damm MF Mexico 27
Franco Escobar DF Argentina 25
Jon Gallagher FW Ireland 21
Josef Martinez FW Venezuala 27
Pity Martinez FW Argentina 25
Jake Mulraney FW Ireland 24
Eric Remedi MF Argentina 25
Matthias Rosatto MF Brazil 24
Anton Walkes DF England 24
Lawrence Wyke MF England 23

Looking at the these mentality tough players. I can see how a team like Newcastle is afraid, terrified, trembling in their boots to come over here and player a team like Atlanta. Why would a team like Newcastle risk taking a 'L' against a MLS team? This reminds me of Boise, good but no one would schedule them because afraid they'd lose. Why would Newcastle risk the financial hit?

In serious, MLS roster are getting younger and younger with foreign based players. MLS is changing albeit slowly. I can see how Premier League don't want to risk it.

hamsamwich
Post #340
Thursday July 16, 2020 8:13pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,303
Better paycheck does not mean the same as mentally tougher or more ambitious. Haji Wright was once in the development system in Germany and played for Schalke. Ambitious? Maybe. Better paid than others his age in MLS system? Probably. Mentally tougher?? Not sure about that.
**in my opinion Schalke took a chance on his raw athleticism, but in the end he wasn't good or technical.

bjelks
Post #341
Thursday July 16, 2020 9:30pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,664
Original post from Samtom23

For a moment, this should be fun. I will get sidetracked for a moment. You claim Jordan Morris is weak because not going to Europe and that is your argument against him really, not how he actually plays. He is limited technically but he gets the job done similar to Dempsey in my opinion. So I am going to apply your logic of being tough mentality and see how it works.

Looking at Atlanta United, we see that it is full of players that are mentality tough. They left there home countries to challenge themselves at one of the better leagues in the world. Let's look at the roster of mentality tough guys.

Player Position Country Age
Mo Adams MF England 23
Ezequiel Barco MF Argentina 21
Manuel Castro FW Uruguay 21
Jurgen Damm MF Mexico 27
Franco Escobar DF Argentina 25
Jon Gallagher FW Ireland 21
Josef Martinez FW Venezuala 27
Pity Martinez FW Argentina 25
Jake Mulraney FW Ireland 24
Eric Remedi MF Argentina 25
Matthias Rosatto MF Brazil 24
Anton Walkes DF England 24
Lawrence Wyke MF England 23

Looking at the these mentality tough players. I can see how a team like Newcastle is afraid, terrified, trembling in their boots to come over here and player a team like Atlanta. Why would a team like Newcastle risk taking a 'L' against a MLS team? This reminds me of Boise, good but no one would schedule them because afraid they'd lose. Why would Newcastle risk the financial hit?

In serious, MLS roster are getting younger and younger with foreign based players. MLS is changing albeit slowly. I can see how Premier League don't want to risk it.


@samtom23 this is the biggest fanboy logic I've ever seen lol. I start talking player values and you bring up player ages and nationalities that have nothing to do with how good players or clubs are.
Those guys came here bc they couldn't make it in a better league. Nobody takes less money and exiles themselves from the national team because They want to prove how tough they are lol.
Can't make this up people.

Instead of comparing them to EPL teams who have much higher valued players/ teams why not play equally valued teams in the Championship or League One?
Why the need to reach so much?
Cmon dude, this is crazy.
If you want to say Atlanta who is valued close to Reading, could beat them, ok that's reasonable. But there's no need for all these Strawmans and blanket statements.

This same Atl team got smacked by Cincy today who should've been relegated last yr, but who cares because there's no consequences in MLS.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #342
Thursday July 16, 2020 9:31pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,664
Original post from hamsamwich

Better paycheck does not mean the same as mentally tougher or more ambitious. Haji Wright was once in the development system in Germany and played for Schalke. Ambitious? Maybe. Better paid than others his age in MLS system? Probably. Mentally tougher?? Not sure about that.
**in my opinion Schalke took a chance on his raw athleticism, but in the end he wasn't good or technical.


That's one example and there are exceptions to every rule, but the general rule of thumb is players are compared by value globally
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #343
Friday July 17, 2020 12:36am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 343
Original post from bjelks

@samtom23 this is the biggest fanboy logic I've ever seen lol. I start talking player values and you bring up player ages and nationalities that have nothing to do with how good players or clubs are.
Those guys came here bc they couldn't make it in a better league. Nobody takes less money and exiles themselves from the national team because They want to prove how tough they are lol.
Can't make this up people.

Instead of comparing them to EPL teams who have much higher valued players/ teams why not play equally valued teams in the Championship or League One?
Why the need to reach so much?
Cmon dude, this is crazy.
If you want to say Atlanta who is valued close to Reading, could beat them, ok that's reasonable. But there's no need for all these Strawmans and blanket statements.

This same Atl team got smacked by Cincy today who should've been relegated last yr, but who cares because there's no consequences in MLS.


I guess that means Cincy could beat Aston Villa or Norwich. Maybe that European coach they have is that good! Wow!

But I am disappointed to see how mentally weak Konrad De La Fuente is. He stayed at his club when he could've gone and started at another club. Damn, Konrad De La Fluente and Jordan Morris for being mentally weak. Doesn't look good for us with such players that don't go challenge themselves at the highest levels. What is American football going to do?

hamsamwich
Post #344
Friday July 17, 2020 1:56am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,303
Value is usually gauged (at the beginning, at a younger age) by talent and potential. This nonsense of mentally weak or not- that gets found out later when the true pressure is on. A lot of these guys get by on potential- and there's nothing wrong with that. Like Konrad now- Barca is thinking if they can teach him the game and how to play he will be better than a lesser athlete. He was bigger than many of France u20 players and Konrad was playing up a cycle. But he didn't stand out the way Sargent did, or Adams did and so we wait for something tangible to show us when to get excited. Konrad is on the right path and he will get his looks before 2022 winter World Cup. But for there here and now there isn't a case to be made until he tears it up for Barca B for example. People got excited for Sargent because he tore up the lower adult German league playing with werder 2. Chris Richards had an even better year respectively than that. Dest was killing it for Jong Ajax, just like Ledezma has for Jong PSV. But Konrad is still playing youth soccer until his recent promotion for next year. So let's see what he does then, and if he plays well for Barca B then there is a case for it. Until then it's all just potential and there's nothing wrong with that.

Samtom23
Post #345
Friday July 17, 2020 4:18am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 343
Original post from hamsamwich

Value is usually gauged (at the beginning, at a younger age) by talent and potential. This nonsense of mentally weak or not- that gets found out later when the true pressure is on. A lot of these guys get by on potential- and there's nothing wrong with that. Like Konrad now- Barca is thinking if they can teach him the game and how to play he will be better than a lesser athlete. He was bigger than many of France u20 players and Konrad was playing up a cycle. But he didn't stand out the way Sargent did, or Adams did and so we wait for something tangible to show us when to get excited. Konrad is on the right path and he will get his looks before 2022 winter World Cup. But for there here and now there isn't a case to be made until he tears it up for Barca B for example. People got excited for Sargent because he tore up the lower adult German league playing with werder 2. Chris Richards had an even better year respectively than that. Dest was killing it for Jong Ajax, just like Ledezma has for Jong PSV. But Konrad is still playing youth soccer until his recent promotion for next year. So let's see what he does then, and if he plays well for Barca B then there is a case for it. Until then it's all just potential and there's nothing wrong with that.


I wasn't being serious. Hope you realize that.

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