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hamsamwich
Post #241
Monday July 6, 2020 2:57pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,309
Wigan will get fleeced as they are in a whole bunch of trouble.

Ream played there as a stay at home LB. I can say he rated Lovitz to stay at home at LB more that's why he included him in last years gold cup. But we weren't playing with both wingbacks high up the pitch then. It was that 3-2-2-3 attacking formation. And the "Plan B" was Robinson at LWB he just didn't impress Gregg at that time, playing that way.

As a person who watches the MLS, Greggs teams with the Crew always had both wingbacks high up the pitch so I could definitely see him returning to that. And Robinson would be that LB with the ability to get up the line.

I don't think there is a consensus on what Gregg will do or who he values for the future, he keeps his cards close. Being a better passer of the ball on Robinson's part will help him stay in the USMNT XI, my opinion he needs to improve that.

Lilshmike
Post #242
Monday July 6, 2020 3:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from bjelks

The way bidding wars work is that they drive up the prices for players.

With Robinson's run of form and his clear separation as the best left back in the Championship at this point, doubling Milan's agreed upon fee doesn't seem far fetched.

The funny thing is I mentioned Gregg rated Ream, Vines, Gasper and Lovitz above Antonee and all Mike heard was 20mm lol.

Why not be outraged at how bad Gregg's player evaluations are, so bad that he can't tell the difference between a 1 million dollar player and a 10 - 20?
Thats not exactly how things work out, bud.

First of all, to make clear, you made the $20m figure up. Thats not rooted in anything factual... only your own "expert opinion".

Second, after all the posts you have made referencing player and team values on Transfermarkt as validation for your viewpoints, you either didn't look to reference Robinson's value there (which is my guess) or you did and didn't want to bring it up because it runs contrary to your argument. His value there is listed at $3.85m... $16m shy of your estimate. Thats a large delta, and certainly not due to "daily fluctuations in price".

Third, you using yourself as a source and applying your expert soccer knowledge to this doesn't add any credibility to your point. Quite the opposite actually.

Now... moving on...

Again, a "bidding war" might sound like a nice phrase to use to justify your stance, but thats not exactly how these things typically shake out. Especially in the case for Robinson, thats definitely not exactly whats likely to happen.

Wigan has gone into administration. As punishment, they're going to be handed a 12 point deduction which will relegate the club to League One.

Wigan, being in the cash strapped and desperate position that they're in to avoid liquidation of the club, is in no place to negotiate and drive into a "bidding war" as you stated. Other teams know this, and will look to raid their players for cut price fees because again... Wigan is in no place to negotiate. They're going to have to take whatever they can get to pay off their debts in order to keep the club afloat.

Furthermore, when you couple this with the impact clubs are facing due to coronavirus... lots of clubs aren't going to have lavish transfer budgets over the next 6 to 18 months. That means, they won't be looking to enter into bidding wars because they won't have tons to spend.

Combining the coronavirus environment that is impacting the global transfer market with Wigan being placed in Administration... yeah... there is no way that Robinson is valued at, or goes on a transfer for, $20m. That was complete and total fiction created by you. Going to the right team... maybe its realistic to think Robinson can go to another club for $3-6m. Not $10-20m.

Again, I'm not talking about Berhalter's player selections here. I'm simply pointing out your wild statement that has no basis in anything factual.

Lilshmike
Post #243
Monday July 6, 2020 3:26pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Also, building off my point, this could turn into a huge negative for Robinson if he goes to another club just because another club could get him.

Case and point, Maurice Edu at Rangers. Look at what happened to him. Rangers were insolvent, similar situation to Wigan I believe, and their entire team got raided and/or left. Edu went to Stoke, they bought him not because they needed him but because they could, he was surplus, and rotted on the bench.

My guess is that Robinson is on the move this summer. One to keep an eye on because his next move will likely set the stage for, and have a lasting impact on, his career moving forward.

bjelks
Post #244
Monday July 6, 2020 5:57pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,667
Original post from hamsamwich

Wigan will get fleeced as they are in a whole bunch of trouble.

Ream played there as a stay at home LB. I can say he rated Lovitz to stay at home at LB more that's why he included him in last years gold cup. But we weren't playing with both wingbacks high up the pitch then. It was that 3-2-2-3 attacking formation. And the "Plan B" was Robinson at LWB he just didn't impress Gregg at that time, playing that way.

As a person who watches the MLS, Greggs teams with the Crew always had both wingbacks high up the pitch so I could definitely see him returning to that. And Robinson would be that LB with the ability to get up the line.

I don't think there is a consensus on what Gregg will do or who he values for the future, he keeps his cards close. Being a better passer of the ball on Robinson's part will help him stay in the USMNT XI, my opinion he needs to improve that.


The notion that there is any system that any of those guys we've mentioned is anywhere close to Antonee in relation to being the best option to win games I personally think is crazy.

I also don't think anyone not affiliated with USSoccer or MLS would disagree with me
goalsense
bjelks
Post #245
Monday July 6, 2020 6:06pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,667
Original post from Lilshmike

Thats not exactly how things work out, bud.

First of all, to make clear, you made the $20m figure up. Thats not rooted in anything factual... only your own "expert opinion".

Second, after all the posts you have made referencing player and team values on Transfermarkt as validation for your viewpoints, you either didn't look to reference Robinson's value there (which is my guess) or you did and didn't want to bring it up because it runs contrary to your argument. His value there is listed at $3.85m... $16m shy of your estimate. Thats a large delta, and certainly not due to "daily fluctuations in price".

Third, you using yourself as a source and applying your expert soccer knowledge to this doesn't add any credibility to your point. Quite the opposite actually.

Now... moving on...

Again, a "bidding war" might sound like a nice phrase to use to justify your stance, but thats not exactly how these things typically shake out. Especially in the case for Robinson, thats definitely not exactly whats likely to happen.

Wigan has gone into administration. As punishment, they're going to be handed a 12 point deduction which will relegate the club to League One.

Wigan, being in the cash strapped and desperate position that they're in to avoid liquidation of the club, is in no place to negotiate and drive into a "bidding war" as you stated. Other teams know this, and will look to raid their players for cut price fees because again... Wigan is in no place to negotiate. They're going to have to take whatever they can get to pay off their debts in order to keep the club afloat.

Furthermore, when you couple this with the impact clubs are facing due to coronavirus... lots of clubs aren't going to have lavish transfer budgets over the next 6 to 18 months. That means, they won't be looking to enter into bidding wars because they won't have tons to spend.

Combining the coronavirus environment that is impacting the global transfer market with Wigan being placed in Administration... yeah... there is no way that Robinson is valued at, or goes on a transfer for, $20m. That was complete and total fiction created by you. Going to the right team... maybe its realistic to think Robinson can go to another club for $3-6m. Not $10-20m.

Again, I'm not talking about Berhalter's player selections here. I'm simply pointing out your wild statement that has no basis in anything factual.


You haven't pointed out anything.

You've also never worked in the Euro Transfermarkt. You're just mad bc my projections weaken your pro mls and USSF agenda.

Milan agreed with Wigan previously on 10.
Even if he's valued at 3.8 whatever, he will still be sold to the highest bidder.
That's exactly how the Transfermarkt works.
These are big clubs interested in him and they have the money.
If they want him, they will come up with him or lose him.
He's clearly distinguished himself as the best left back in the EFL and bidding comes with the territory.

You clearly have no factual basis and are speaking from your personal agenda to devalue non mls players and make Gregg more credible.

We don't believe you, you need more ppl.- JayZ
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #246
Monday July 6, 2020 9:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from bjelks

You haven't pointed out anything.

You've also never worked in the Euro Transfermarkt. You're just mad bc my projections weaken your pro mls and USSF agenda.

Milan agreed with Wigan previously on 10.
Even if he's valued at 3.8 whatever, he will still be sold to the highest bidder.
That's exactly how the Transfermarkt works.
These are big clubs interested in him and they have the money.
If they want him, they will come up with him or lose him.
He's clearly distinguished himself as the best left back in the EFL and bidding comes with the territory.

You clearly have no factual basis and are speaking from your personal agenda to devalue non mls players and make Gregg more credible.

We don't believe you, you need more ppl.- JayZ
Robinson wasn't subject to a $10m bid from AC...

They agreed to 6m pounds, which at the time was about $8m... which is still short of your $10m. Yes, there were some additional kickers added in that could have risen the total fee to around 10m pounds... so I'll give you some benefit of the doubt, but you're still off base.

Again, I will point out that your phrase "He's clearly distinguished himself as the best left back in the EFL" is totally subjective and your own personal opinion. That can, and I'm sure would, be debated by many.

I have no agenda, although you continue to use that as your comeback to any form of criticism. But I will reiterate that I am not off base with my previous posts.
  • Wigan is in administration, therefore they are not in a position to do much negotiating and need to take what they can get with respect to selling players
  • This circumstance puts Wigan in a vulnerable position that other clubs are smart enough to be aware of, and as such, teams will throw low ball offers at players because they can get away with it
  • Add in the global coronavirus pandemic, which has translated to a loss of revenue for all of the clubs and put a number of them in bad financial standing, many clubs will either not be spending or won't be spending big... so they will look to invest wisely where they are able
  • Combine all of these together, it is highly unrealistic that Robinson is going to be sold for $10-20m during this transfer window... and if he stays at Wigan into their relegation to League One, his transfer fee will fall even further
There are back office board rooms where people much smarter than you and I make decisions on how the money is going to be spent. This is how the transfer market works.

Not slapping some random number on a player and waiting for the wave of bids to come in, holding out on hope for a bidding war to take place to get players to go to the highest bidder... but closer to as I have laid out for this specific scenario.

But of course... calling out a random fictional value slapped on a player and pointing out the realities of the current financial environment for clubs leading into the transfer market is somehow an indication of my "personal agenda to devalue non mls players and make Gregg more credible".

Hahaha you can't make this stuff up people.

hamsamwich
Post #247
Monday July 6, 2020 10:27pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,309
I wouldn't play Robinson as a stay at home LB, that rotates into a 3 man CB line. I think that's completely not his game. If we play with both fullbacks, then it is his game to do that. Depends on what Gregg wants to do.

bjelks
Post #248
Tuesday July 7, 2020 4:06am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,667
Original post from Lilshmike

Robinson wasn't subject to a $10m bid from AC...

They agreed to 6m pounds, which at the time was about $8m... which is still short of your $10m. Yes, there were some additional kickers added in that could have risen the total fee to around 10m pounds... so I'll give you some benefit of the doubt, but you're still off base.

Again, I will point out that your phrase "He's clearly distinguished himself as the best left back in the EFL" is totally subjective and your own personal opinion. That can, and I'm sure would, be debated by many.

I have no agenda, although you continue to use that as your comeback to any form of criticism. But I will reiterate that I am not off base with my previous posts.
  • Wigan is in administration, therefore they are not in a position to do much negotiating and need to take what they can get with respect to selling players
  • This circumstance puts Wigan in a vulnerable position that other clubs are smart enough to be aware of, and as such, teams will throw low ball offers at players because they can get away with it
  • Add in the global coronavirus pandemic, which has translated to a loss of revenue for all of the clubs and put a number of them in bad financial standing, many clubs will either not be spending or won't be spending big... so they will look to invest wisely where they are able
  • Combine all of these together, it is highly unrealistic that Robinson is going to be sold for $10-20m during this transfer window... and if he stays at Wigan into their relegation to League One, his transfer fee will fall even further
There are back office board rooms where people much smarter than you and I make decisions on how the money is going to be spent. This is how the transfer market works.

Not slapping some random number on a player and waiting for the wave of bids to come in, holding out on hope for a bidding war to take place to get players to go to the highest bidder... but closer to as I have laid out for this specific scenario.

But of course... calling out a random fictional value slapped on a player and pointing out the realities of the current financial environment for clubs leading into the transfer market is somehow an indication of my "personal agenda to devalue non mls players and make Gregg more credible".

Hahaha you can't make this stuff up people.


Blah blah blah people.
The final agreement was 10m, but believe whatever you want.
He's made 3 consecutive TOTWs and the team of the month. He's clearly the undisputed best left back in the EFL today.

lol you can't tell me you're not off base with your reasoning, that's for the audience to decide.
You clearly have an agenda bc you're clearly ignoring facts to drive your the federation is never wrong narrative.
There are several big clubs after Antonee, Leicester and AC Milan to name a few. Since Wigan knows this, they don't have to take the 1st bid.
Also with weekly and monthly honors, his stock is rising.

Even with the pandemic clubs are still spending big, I could careless about your lies and false narratives.
Currently, Wigan is safe. We'll see if they have to take a point reduction.
But until then, you should stop dry hating. Not a good look for your credibility.

You know this isn't a random number. You know he was sold for 10, has multiple big name suitors, and there will be competition for his services. But again your agenda is about hyping ussf, mls and putting down young abroad players.
Can't make this stuff up people.

Again the main point of this discussion, was how incompetent must Gregg be to rate Vines, Lovitz and Ream over this kid, which you've tried to deflect lol.
Do us all a favor and don't weigh in, we're good on your bs excuses about how Gregg and the fed always do what's right for their system lol.
goalsense
cudevil
Post #249
Tuesday July 7, 2020 8:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,049
Original post from Lilshmike

Also, building off my point, this could turn into a huge negative for Robinson if he goes to another club just because another club could get him.

Case and point, Maurice Edu at Rangers. Look at what happened to him. Rangers were insolvent, similar situation to Wigan I believe, and their entire team got raided and/or left. Edu went to Stoke, they bought him not because they needed him but because they could, he was surplus, and rotted on the bench.

My guess is that Robinson is on the move this summer. One to keep an eye on because his next move will likely set the stage for, and have a lasting impact on, his career moving forward.


So just some random thoughts on the administration issue. Can other clubs just fleece Wigan because they are in administration? Here, in a bankruptcy, if the debtor is going to sell "estate property", a court has to approve the sale of the asset, there has to be a showing that there was a competitive sale process in place, the offer is the best, benefits creditors, etc. Anyone know if similar protocols are in place in the UK?

Lilshmike
Post #250
Wednesday July 8, 2020 1:16pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from cudevil

So just some random thoughts on the administration issue. Can other clubs just fleece Wigan because they are in administration? Here, in a bankruptcy, if the debtor is going to sell "estate property", a court has to approve the sale of the asset, there has to be a showing that there was a competitive sale process in place, the offer is the best, benefits creditors, etc. Anyone know if similar protocols are in place in the UK?
Now granted, I'm no expert, but my understanding of the situation is that basically clubs lose their say in what happens.

When clubs go into administration, outside accountants are put in charge of pretty much all aspects of the club other than coaching/training/managing and picking the match day squad. Player salaries and payments due to other clubs are top of the priority list, but after that they are expected to pay off 100% of their outstanding debt.

Bringing this full circle to my point about transfer values and clubs getting fleeced... other clubs know this. And if there are players who they want, or just feel like buying, and they offer a fair market value for the player, the outside accountants are now ultimately the ones in charge of dealing with this... their job isn't to negotiate the best and highest transfer fee... their job is to find a way to pay back the creditors. As such, they're looking to take what they can get as long as its considered fair in their eyes (i.e. agreeing to sell a player for $5m instead of holding out and playing hard ball for some imaginary bidding war that leads to $20m).

If within a certain time frame the club is unable to satisfy their debts, then it is moved out of administration and declared insolvent and the club is liquidated. With that comes selling all the players. Not sure if you've ever been to an estate sale... but I would imagine its very similar. Going into a nice house where everything on the walls and in the rooms is being sold for cents on the dollar. But instead of nice pieces of furniture and artwork... its players and training facilities and whatnot.

Moving further along with my example of players leaving... again, other clubs know this. Not only that... but players at the current club know this. High earners may very well be forced out the door to free up the books... and it doesn't provide a sense of comfort for many of the players. If their salaries are in jeopardy, they can twist the club's arm to let them go. Clubs won't necessarily be in a place to force them to stay... and other clubs know this... so its not like a bidding war will ensue.

What will likely happen is...
  • Club goes into administration
  • Teams are interested in a player at that club
  • Said player tells his club he wants to leave
  • Considering outside accountants are running the club at this point, as long as what they receive for the transaction is fair market value, then they have no problems
  • Teams interested in said player know this, and provide low ball offers that are "fair market value" instead of entering a bidding war to get a player, knowing that fair value will be acceptable
  • As long as the club is fine with the terms, the negotiation begins with the player... not the club... over salary demands and whatnot
The players ultimately have some say in what happens next here. And if you are trying to buy a player, and he is valued at X... given his club is in administration... there is no need to lob a huge bid his way because a fair value will be acceptable and it will be a matter of negotiating a contract with that player. Other clubs know this too, and therefore there is no sense in jumping into a bidding war... because where the war is going to be fought is on the contract with what each club offers the player individually.

This is more complex and not as easy as bjelks tries to claim with an imaginary valuation that he backed into by throwing out the term "bidding war".

The other thing that plays into this is that the entire footballing world is dealing with the coronavirus.. which has impacted the revenues of clubs, which has directly impacted their ability to spend, which has directly impacted their transfer budgets, which will directly impact their plans and ability to sign new players.

bjelks
Post #251
Wednesday July 8, 2020 3:46pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,667
The Telegraph says Antonee is worth 10m Euros but could be available for 1.5m.
They also said the competition for suitors could drive the price back up to 10m+.

https://twitter.com/wbareport/status/12804479...

My original point is still there's no scenario where Lovitz, Vines, Gasper or Ream should've ever played over him at LB.

Finally got an ESPN+ Account so I can see the kid live
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #252
Wednesday July 8, 2020 5:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
I read the article and checked the source...

They list his value at 10m pounds based on the AC Milan deal... and they did so incorrectly. The agreed upon fee was 6m pounds, which could have potentially risen to 10m with add-ons based on performances and whatnot. But sure, again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Not only that, but they list that he has a release clause in his contract in the event of relegation of 1.5m pounds... hence that figure.

The reality of administration leaves Wigan in one of two spots. They are going to get a 12 point deduction regardless... and here are the two options...
  • If they finish above the relegation zone, the 12 point deduction is applied this season... which will in all likelihood put them in the relegation zone and send them down to League One
  • If Wigan get relegated this season before the deduction, 12 points is deducted at the start of next season
As I stated, them getting relegated would lower his value. If they get relegated... the only thing clubs would have to do is pony up 1.5m pounds and the deal is over terms in his personal contract. If you look at the Championship table right now and the remaining fixtures... Wigan looks like they are in prime position to get relegated due to that 12 point deduction.

I said it multiple times and I will say it again, bjelks... I am not off base. Thanks for bringing a source to confirm that.

And to clarify, I never had any comment about any other players. Only calling out that the $20m valuation you slapped on Robinson was unrealistic. That is before bringing up the entire situation with him having an issue with his heart (a ding against him that would possibly put off potential suitors).

bjelks
Post #253
Wednesday July 8, 2020 6:01pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,667
Fair @lilshmike
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #254
Wednesday July 8, 2020 6:09pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from bjelks

Fair @lilshmike
What?!?! Is Hell freezing over??? Are those pigs I see flying in the sky??? Does this mean we have found some sort of agreement here???

Never thought I would see the day... But much appreciated.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #255
Wednesday July 8, 2020 6:10pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from bjelks

The Telegraph says Antonee is worth 10m Euros but could be available for 1.5m.
They also said the competition for suitors could drive the price back up to 10m+.

https://twitter.com/wbareport/status/12804479...

My original point is still there's no scenario where Lovitz, Vines, Gasper or Ream should've ever played over him at LB.

Finally got an ESPN+ Account so I can see the kid live


I think that sometimes you get tunnel-vision and don't really look at the big picture. I get that you're frustrated with a lot that US soccer does but sometimes you come off like a conspiracy theory kinda guy.
Antonee Robinson was injured for 2 full seasons while playing for the U23's, he has only been a starter for a championship club for little over a year. When GB took over around that time he was a guy with great potential that had a significant injury history and was yet fully proven. He has since proven to be one of the top LB in the Championship, I think we can make an argument for him being the #1.
We also don't know with what was going on with the transfer saga and club situation if accepting call ups was in his best interest at the time. As far as I know GB does not publish his depth chart, how do you know he doesn't have him penciled in as #1? You don't know and I think that you get worked up over things you don't really know often on these boards. If Robinson was not in a position to accept a call up why is it unusual for GB to look at his other options? I for one would like to see what roster GB would pick if we had to go to the WC right now, I am guessing I know who the starting LB would be.

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