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Lilshmike
Post #151
Saturday May 16, 2020 5:44pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,368
@bjelks

Hahaha omg, this is actually hilarious. If your career as a random internet soccer genius doesn't pan out, you may have a shot at being a comedian.

@Stoked

You were quick to call me out for commenting on this guys ridiculous nonsense and name calling... but you have yet to condemn him after his continuous wild posts. I candidly ask... why is that? Quite the double standard. Be consistent if you're going to make posts promoting people to have fun debate and not name call. Seems your issue was with the messenger, not the message.

Samtom23
Post #152
Saturday May 16, 2020 6:09pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 220
I think MLS is really in a moment of transition. When MLS owner's lost out on Pulisic's 75 million dollar transfer, it was a wake up call to some owners. Other owners foresaw this possibility.

The business is starting to drive soccer decisions, some MLS teams are better at it than others. We look at Pulisic and the incident at LA Galaxy, there will probably be a significant change within the next five years. That is why you see a lowering in age of the league and also why you're seeing an increasing in signings of young foreign players instead of old players.

With the story about LA Galaxy and Jonathan De La Santos saying the league will be much better in five years. I think so partly because of this incident.

Getting back to Atlanta, it seems to be a well run team. Good coaching, good players and good executives. And the foreign players that train with the likes of Miles Robinson and George Bello, can only benefit, the team and the league.

I think my analysis of the organization was not in detail but sound.

@Stoke and Bjelks, being signed by a team, doesn't mean you are going to have success with that team. Football has a graveyard of failed signings, Torres, Thomas Lemar, Coutinho, the list could be exhaustive.

bjelks
Post #153
Saturday May 16, 2020 8:13pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,499
Original post from Philip

He wasn't signed because he was from Paraguay, he wasn't signed because he played in Argentina 3 years ago.
There are many reasons why other leagues have more transfers. MLS as a league has a history of trying to hold onto players. There are many examples of players wanting to transfer and teams making offers that MLS refused. They were trying to improve their product and holding onto quality players was necessary. That does not in any way reflect on the quality of that player. That player was capable of playing at the higher level but we're not given the chance. There are also many reasons why a player may perform better in one league as opposed to another. There are examples of players going to "inferior" leagues and failing. Terrence Boyd, who you wanted in the national team, is one. You fail to see the big picture.


If you don't understand that development comes from your country and youth football, I don't know what to tell you lol

You can add the "turned down" players if you like but the fact is the players that get offers is pretty low compared to the mid tier leagues

And even if they all go, there's just such a low success rate of mls guys that go to top leagues and make an impact, Jozy who ppl on this site think is irreplaceable, never did
goalsense
stoked-3
Post #154
Saturday May 16, 2020 8:14pm

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 16
Original post from Lilshmike

@bjelks

You want to create competition and hunger?

How about this... we set a standard that you have to play at a bar minimum level to be in consideration for selection for the USMNT. Let's call that level MLS... the absolute lowest we'll accept.

Let's make it a standard that you have to at least be playing and producing consistently for your position at your senior club team to be in consideration.

Let's also say that to beat the final hurdle, you have to be doing something that sets you apart from your peers. Performances, stats, etc... actual metrics that can prove your arguments for inclusion. Or you fit a position or role in need for the team given the players to choose from in the pool.

If you have 2 guys, both CMs, and one plays every week in MLS and the other in Bundesliga... Bundesliga guy has a leg up that you can point to that's concrete evidence as he is playing at a higher level.

If you have 2 other guys, both STs, with one scoring double digit goals in MLS and the other in Holland with a single goal and bouncing between the bench and starting lineup... well, the MLS guys has a clear metric to point to where his inclusion can be justified.

Wild ideas right there. Revolutionary actually. This sets a consistent standard that everyone has applied to them. Forces every player to perform week in week out for their senior clubs... like what real professionals are required to do. It creates a level playing field that forces guys to get better, or improve their performances, to get noticed and called in. You know... competition.


In theory your statement may be correct but we are not Brazil, Germany etc it really should come down to who is better player at the position or whom will have more to offer at a specific date-.

You can not have a once size fits all approach.

In your model Uly would not have been called. Nor would J.Green. Uly dominated in the last game looked head and shoulders better than the mls guys and frankly better than any guys on the opposing team.

Julian Green came in a WC game and scored he was playing 4th or 5th division at the time. Wondo shit the bed but yet he was the mls poster boy.

Should we not call up Gio since he is no a regular starter? How about CP he isnt a lock to start week in and out?

Your standard does not take into account it is harder to play overseas based on depth, mls has no depth-once you start you are going to start forever. overseas its week to week and there are a dozen players who could take your spot.

Re D.Williams yes he deserves a shot , I remember JMoriss being called up with no game action after his ACL-why did he do in the previous 12 months that warrented his call up?? For the record I would have called him up but you can not then say DW shouldnt be called up bc he was hurt.

Better leauges have better players as do better teams. Look at Patrick Mahomes he couldnt beat out the starter but was he better, yes, there are many factors that go into guys playing. But staying with American football how about Jimmy G he couldnt beat out Tom Brady , NEVER was a starter and then goes to a new team and leads them to the SB but by your standard he wouldnt be called in bc he wasnt starting.

You need to be able to read player and see potential-are all euro guys going to pan out, nope, are all starters in mls going to be NAT quality guys nope. But when you miss out on a WC then you need to broaded the mindset to find better players

stoked-3
Post #155
Saturday May 16, 2020 8:17pm

Joined Mar 2020
Total Posts: 16
Original post from Samtom23

I think MLS is really in a moment of transition. When MLS owner's lost out on Pulisic's 75 million dollar transfer, it was a wake up call to some owners. Other owners foresaw this possibility.

The business is starting to drive soccer decisions, some MLS teams are better at it than others. We look at Pulisic and the incident at LA Galaxy, there will probably be a significant change within the next five years. That is why you see a lowering in age of the league and also why you're seeing an increasing in signings of young foreign players instead of old players.

With the story about LA Galaxy and Jonathan De La Santos saying the league will be much better in five years. I think so partly because of this incident.

Getting back to Atlanta, it seems to be a well run team. Good coaching, good players and good executives. And the foreign players that train with the likes of Miles Robinson and George Bello, can only benefit, the team and the league.

I think my analysis of the organization was not in detail but sound.

@Stoke and Bjelks, being signed by a team, doesn't mean you are going to have success with that team. Football has a graveyard of failed signings, Torres, Thomas Lemar, Coutinho, the list could be exhaustive.


I agree but AC Milan interest was geninue- the guys plays with skill and they wanted him-would he have done well and started everygame who knows maybe not but I would dare say he is head and shoulders over any US mls LB we have thrown out on the field-

bjelks
Post #156
Saturday May 16, 2020 8:17pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,499
Original post from Lilshmike

@bjelks

Hahaha omg, this is actually hilarious. If your career as a random internet soccer genius doesn't pan out, you may have a shot at being a comedian.

@Stoked

You were quick to call me out for commenting on this guys ridiculous nonsense and name calling... but you have yet to condemn him after his continuous wild posts. I candidly ask... why is that? Quite the double standard. Be consistent if you're going to make posts promoting people to have fun debate and not name call. Seems your issue was with the messenger, not the message.


Doesn't take genius to use evidence to form your opinions
goalsense
bjelks
Post #157
Saturday May 16, 2020 8:22pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,499
Original post from Samtom23

I think MLS is really in a moment of transition. When MLS owner's lost out on Pulisic's 75 million dollar transfer, it was a wake up call to some owners. Other owners foresaw this possibility.

The business is starting to drive soccer decisions, some MLS teams are better at it than others. We look at Pulisic and the incident at LA Galaxy, there will probably be a significant change within the next five years. That is why you see a lowering in age of the league and also why you're seeing an increasing in signings of young foreign players instead of old players.

With the story about LA Galaxy and Jonathan De La Santos saying the league will be much better in five years. I think so partly because of this incident.

Getting back to Atlanta, it seems to be a well run team. Good coaching, good players and good executives. And the foreign players that train with the likes of Miles Robinson and George Bello, can only benefit, the team and the league.

I think my analysis of the organization was not in detail but sound.

@Stoke and Bjelks, being signed by a team, doesn't mean you are going to have success with that team. Football has a graveyard of failed signings, Torres, Thomas Lemar, Coutinho, the list could be exhaustive.


No one has said that being signed guarantees success, but playing regularly at a higher level makes you more match sharp than someone who is very good at a lower level

A very good d-league player is likely still not as good as a bad nba player
Soccer works the same, that's the difference in levels

I'm personally asking that you don't skip over guys that are signed and playing at higher levels not guys that have failed
goalsense
Philip
Post #158
Saturday May 16, 2020 8:43pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 39
Original post from bjelks

If you don't understand that development comes from your country and youth football, I don't know what to tell you lol

You can add the "turned down" players if you like but the fact is the players that get offers is pretty low compared to the mid tier leagues

And even if they all go, there's just such a low success rate of mls guys that go to top leagues and make an impact, Jozy who ppl on this site think is irreplaceable, never did

Development starts at the beginning, when you first start playing but that's not the point with Almiron. The point is he developed further while playing in MLS. Newcastle wanted 2019 Miguel Almiron and not the 2017 version.

bjelks
Post #159
Sunday May 17, 2020 1:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,499
Original post from Philip

Development starts at the beginning, when you first start playing but that's not the point with Almiron. The point is he developed further while playing in MLS. Newcastle wanted 2019 Miguel Almiron and not the 2017 version.


Development starts at the beginning and goes until you are no longer a young player. As a young player, usually 20-22. As a young player Almirón got valuable experience from the Paraguay natl team and the Argentine champs that helped him dominate mls in 2019. College players and players with only mls experience don't have the developmental experience he had, so he's an exception to mls development not the rule. The point is he was a fully developed player by the time he got to mls, so I wouldn't say he developed further while in mls.
goalsense
Philip
Post #160
Sunday May 17, 2020 1:56pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 39
Original post from bjelks

Development starts at the beginning and goes until you are no longer a young player. As a young player, usually 20-22. As a young player Almirón got valuable experience from the Paraguay natl team and the Argentine champs that helped him dominate mls in 2019. College players and players with only mls experience don't have the developmental experience he had, so he's an exception to mls development not the rule. The point is he was a fully developed player by the time he got to mls, so I wouldn't say he developed further while in mls.

If he was the same player in 2017, why didn't he go to Europe then?

Samtom23
Post #161
Sunday May 17, 2020 3:13pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 220
It's a valid point of view, Bjelks.

But my point is Miles trains and plays against someone that is at least Premier League ready.

I think also we should look at the organisational structure of the team that USMNT plays for, whether it be domestic or abroad.

What kind of track record do they have scouting and developing players? Schalke and Dortmund are obviously better at then Werder Bremen, it isn't just about being in Euro team but which team.

Also, I think Bjelks and everyone in this board can agree any MLS forward options are abysmal for USMNT team.

But we already seen Adams, Davies and Almiron make the transfer to a top league and play right away. And there are others that received interest. Aaron Long at 27 years old was wanted by West Ham.

hamsamwich
Post #162
Sunday May 17, 2020 3:27pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,220
Being further behind the other countries and their players- everyone here in the USA- whether that be the kids, the pros, the coaches, MLS, they all need the time... just to catch up. Again, we did not qualify last time and are attempting to overhaul the system. That takes time and players.

With that said, to me (an average fan), the timeline has gone as follows:

1. Hire took too long and so we fell behind in terms of where we could be in terms of understanding the system.

2. Our star players then have missed time resulting in no real continuity.

3. Now the corona virus has taken friendlies and other games and time away from GGG and the players, for club and country.

4????? Where do we go from here? Is the starting XI an idealized version of GGGs system with guys who haven't run it yet? Or back to the same old same old? Putting whoever we want in our own XIs is all well and good, but their is no "first team" set of guys right now, nobody to count on if qualifying started today. Gregg has his work cut out for him to get this oiled and polished for the next competitive games.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #163
Sunday May 17, 2020 4:06pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,517
Everything will be fine. I'm not worried about the USMNT when the international matches start again. Games will probably be played in empty stadiums and/ or regulated to a certain amount of fans. Which will make playing in Central America and Mexico much easier.

bjelks
Post #164
Sunday May 17, 2020 4:33pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,499
Original post from Philip

If he was the same player in 2017, why didn't he go to Europe then?


They could've had eyes on him in ‘17 but wanted to see him in a more leadership role or there could've been could've been disputes over deals

I do agree that sometimes guys don't move bc of contract disputes between league, club, agent asking price like Long and K Acosta

But big picture 2-4 players a yr moving from mls to a top league still doesn't put it on par with even mid tier euro and top South American leagues
goalsense
bjelks
Post #165
Sunday May 17, 2020 4:36pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,499
Original post from hamsamwich

Being further behind the other countries and their players- everyone here in the USA- whether that be the kids, the pros, the coaches, MLS, they all need the time... just to catch up. Again, we did not qualify last time and are attempting to overhaul the system. That takes time and players.

With that said, to me (an average fan), the timeline has gone as follows:

1. Hire took too long and so we fell behind in terms of where we could be in terms of understanding the system.

2. Our star players then have missed time resulting in no real continuity.

3. Now the corona virus has taken friendlies and other games and time away from GGG and the players, for club and country.

4????? Where do we go from here? Is the starting XI an idealized version of GGGs system with guys who haven't run it yet? Or back to the same old same old? Putting whoever we want in our own XIs is all well and good, but their is no "first team" set of guys right now, nobody to count on if qualifying started today. Gregg has his work cut out for him to get this oiled and polished for the next competitive games.


Gregg could start out by giving the guys playing at the highest level a chance 1st.
He still hasn't done that
goalsense
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