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dunlopp9987
Post #1
Wednesday March 11, 2020 4:17am

Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts: 2,647
The USSF is an absolute joke coming in with these defenses. My jaw was legitimately gaping reading some of this. It reads like it's 1955, not 2020.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states-usa...
COYB!!
Lilshmike
Post #2
Wednesday March 11, 2020 2:41pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
To be honest, they aren't exactly wrong.

The mens team is open only to men, with spots competed for only by men, to play competitions only against men. The womens team is open only to women, with spots competed for only by women, to play competitions only against women. Although they are both under US Soccer, they are two completely separate teams. Its not like these are men and women competing for positions to be lawyers or doctors or something. They are literally competing for completely separate jobs that are unavailable to the opposite sex.

The only way to have an "equal" team would be to eliminate mens and womens all together and have a single team. That is the actual truth of the matter.

Lilshmike
Post #3
Wednesday March 11, 2020 2:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
This entire topic is interesting though. Complex, but interesting if you take the time to dig into the reality of the situation and the factors at play. I've read the tax filings of US Soccer, the different details of the CBA's for both team (that have been made public) the timing of the statements, etc.

There is a lot to unravel, and the situation is not black and white... or, "USSF is bad and discriminating against women" vs "the womens team is just whining".

The most interesting thing is the mens team "official" stance (in quotes, because I doubt every single player in the pool feels exactly the same way, but this was the players association released). As much as they are in support of the women, they are also jockeying for more pay themselves... as they have not concluded their own CBA negotiations.

There are a number of things that would (and would not) make sense for US Soccer to pay both teams equal on. I won't go too far into detail right now, but the gist of most revolves around how USSF/SUM package TV rights and distribute revenue generated through playing and broadcasting games.

Lilshmike
Post #4
Wednesday March 11, 2020 3:22pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
And one last thing...

before people get caught up in the language USSF uses to defend its position, realize that this is the language they are forced to use as they have to justify their stance based on what is written in law. People can interpret it as the USSF being bigoted, but the reality is that lawyers carefully crafted this (and other) statement and stance as to meet the standards that are legally set for this situation.

Its "legal-ese" if you will.

cleancutimage
Post #5
Wednesday March 11, 2020 5:09pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,340
Anyone that thinks the women deserves the same pay as men based on results needs their head checked.

Like Mike said, they are two completely different jobs with two completely different levels of difficulty. It's not like they are both cops and are required to arrest members of either gender. This is gender exclusive. The men happen to play at a much higher level. Thus should be compensated more.

cudevil
Post #6
Wednesday March 11, 2020 9:11pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,105
Original post from cleancutimage

Anyone that thinks the women deserves the same pay as men based on results needs their head checked.

Like Mike said, they are two completely different jobs with two completely different levels of difficulty. It's not like they are both cops and are required to arrest members of either gender. This is gender exclusive. The men happen to play at a much higher level. Thus should be compensated more.


The relative difficulty is the same.

And part of the issue is the disparity in pay when coupled with the revenue each generates.

Lilshmike
Post #7
Wednesday March 11, 2020 10:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
Original post from cudevil

The relative difficulty is the same.

And part of the issue is the disparity in pay when coupled with the revenue each generates.
Relative difficulty as in the ability for those men and women to earn those jobs, yes.

Relative difficulty as in the level of competition that each team/job faces once said job is attained (i.e. the strength of the opponents they play), no.

The issue isn't the disparity of pay coupled with the revenue each generates. There has been a lot of false information floating around on that front, and I won't dive too far into detail.

The true issue at hand is the completely different pay structures of the two teams (men are paid only if they get called in and receive no extra benefits, women are paid a salary with full health insurance and benefits), and the way that each team gets bonuses for performances in tournaments (the FIFA World Cup).

If the women want to continue to get paid a salary with health benefits, then they can't have an "equal" pay structure as the men. And considering they don't have lucrative club contracts to fall back on (like almost all the men), its in their best interest to structure their pay in this manner. Its a matter of risk vs reward.

Additionally, considering that FIFA pays federations based on their qualification for, and performance in, a WC... that is out of USSF control. And considering the mens WC generates over $4B in revenue vs the $250M the womens WC generates... there is going to be a huge gap in the windfall payments each federation gets and subsequently pays out to the players. Thats just economics and math.

At the end of the day, this is a more complex issue than most think.

Samtom23
Post #8
Thursday March 12, 2020 2:41pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 455
As a father to a daughter, I would like to see fair treatment. However, men do generate more revenue and they operate under two different CBA's. And while supporting the women I never watched a woman's match.

I do feel it is the same type of job so I don't buy into that argument. But honestly, I am really undecided on this one.

Lilshmike
Post #9
Thursday March 12, 2020 3:35pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,509
Original post from Samtom23

As a father to a daughter, I would like to see fair treatment. However, men do generate more revenue and they operate under two different CBA's. And while supporting the women I never watched a woman's match.

I do feel it is the same type of job so I don't buy into that argument. But honestly, I am really undecided on this one.
I'm all in favor of breaking out the teams into separate business functions from the USSF level.

Right now, all are one in the same, with TV rights bundled together and distributed back out to the separate teams and players under a cloud that lacks full transparency. The reason being... I'm not sure. Maybe USSF has a sound rationale, maybe they do not. Either way, that would clearly separate the two and provide justification for the fruits of their labor if they've been earned - backed up with separate accounting P&Ls to prove what they've earned.

TV contracts, ticket revenue sharing, and per diems of the same amount for both teams. This is currently already the case except for TV contracts. Lets say 10% for argument sake.... if ESPN pays $10M for the rights to womens games for 3 years, the players get a windfall of $1M at the end of 3 years. Tie that to a formula that takes into consideration both number of games broadcast, as well as TV ratings for each game, and players get compensated in one lump sum at the end of that contract proportionately against both the games they were called up to and the TV rating associated with that game.

The only outstanding issues then are general compensation for getting selected to the national team (men are paid only when selected without benefits, women are paid a salary with full benefits) and bonuses for performance.

As stated, its in the best interest of the women to have a base salary with full benefits because they lack lucrative club contracts. As a result, on a per game basis (part of their argument), it is completely logical and rational that they're paid lower than the men... reason being is due to risk vs reward. Otherwise, they do away with that and assume higher risk with only getting paid when they are called in... but receive higher pay as a result.

As for the bonuses... that is a bit more complicated. As stated, some of these windfalls come from outside organizations (i.e. FIFA and CONCACAF). If the mens team earns a $10M bonus from FIFA and the women earn a $3M bonus... then thats not USSF. Thats FIFA. And any adjustment one way or the other in distributing that bonus to the players is unfair to the other side.

There are however bonuses that USSF pays out to players based on wins, and subsequently strength of opponent. This one is the trickiest of all... because to be honest, there are only a handful of womens teams that are any good. Meanwhile, the top 50 mens teams in the world are all pretty good. So, in essence, its more difficult for the men to do well (relatively speaking) than the women when compared to the rest of the field.

It isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison, and figuring out an "equal" way to compensate both sides for their performance based bonuses is difficult.

Again, there is a lot more that I could go into... but the reality is that this is a much more complex issue than most think... and in particular, the womens team is making out to be. They are painting this as a huge sexist issue and trying to win in the court of public opinion and put USSF in between a rock and a hard place in order to settle the situation. The harsh reality though is that the womens team doesn't exactly have the strongest legal argument.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #10
Friday March 13, 2020 2:20am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,350
Cordeiro steps down(LOL)

https://twitter.com/cacsoccer/status/12382702...

blaise213
Post #11
Friday March 13, 2020 3:22am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,179
Original post from EKneezy

Cordeiro steps down(LOL)

https://twitter.com/cacsoccer/status/12382702...


Best news! Let's get Wynalda in (if) everything gets back to normal.

Samtom23
Post #12
Friday March 13, 2020 9:11am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 455
Blaise, what would he do to improve US soccer?

blaise213
Post #13
Friday March 13, 2020 9:21am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,179
Original post from Samtom23

Blaise, what would he do to improve US soccer?


Get rid of SUM marketing. That was Wynalda's #1 priority.

db707
Post #14
Friday March 13, 2020 10:58am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,083
I had been wondering why in the hell Cordeiro would release that open letter, and I guess the answer was the old Krusty the Clown explanation: "Because I'm an idiot."

Know Nothing
Post #15
Friday March 13, 2020 4:25pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,827
As stupid as it was, does releasing the letter really matter in the overall scope of things? It just reiterated that US Soccer had lost in the court of public opinion.

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