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Know Nothing
Post #46
Monday February 3, 2020 5:00pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,742
Original post from bjelks

We honestly have good enough players at every other position to not force Dest out of his natural position at RB.

Holmes is a natural 10/8, can drive the ball through the midfield, turn with a defender on his shoulder, play a ball in and crack one from 30 yds out. He should be our starting 10 in March

Ledezma is pure 10 with world class ability.

Robinson is a top 5 rated left back in the Championship and is targeted by Milan and Lyon.
I'm gonna say something truthful but hurtful, Cannon isn't in Robinson's class.
He doesn't have the technique or experience.
It would be silly to build the formation to accommodate him.

If we really want to have an honest convo about right backs, Chandler is 2nd behind Dest. He's easily the most proven and playing at the highest level.

Cannon's best performances have come against a Mexican domestic player, a disinterested Uruguay b squad and an experimental Italy squad that failed to qualify, arguably their worst team ever. So to say he's a Better player at the international level than 2 players proven in the EPL and Bundesliga is just not true.

He's played well against concacaf and low tier teams and being overhyped like Long


Yes, but clearly Dest is one of our best attacking players period. I would rather have his main focus be attacking rather than defending. We have the luxury of other RB's so as to accommodate this.

I dare say if given the opportunity, Cannon could hold his own in the Championship and maybe a little higher. He has not done much of anything wrong so I do believe he has played his way into the equation.

If teams were built on individual talent and games were played on paper, that would be one thing. There are intangibles, like working within an existing squad, that have to be considered. Eleven players working together will usually defeat eleven players playing their own individual games.

A case in point to this would be Sasha Klestjan. Did well playing in Europe but struggled playing with us.

I would not say Robinson has played poorly, it is that he has played better when playing with players with similar training and technique than with players he is unfamiliar with that have been trained differently (read Europe vs MLS). Watch the newly integrated European trained guys...they have to hold the ball a little longer so as to figure out where the MLS guys are going to be. At club level that is usually rote.

Lilshmike
Post #47
Monday February 3, 2020 5:00pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,319
@bjelks

Your Miazga vs Long take is reasonable. That being said though, you're still spewing a bunch of nonsense...
  • Richards plays in the 3rd division in Germany, below the level of MLS. He has no argument for inclusion over Long.
  • EPB plays in the Austrian league which is relatively the same level as MLS. He isn't even an every week starter. He hasn't created a compelling argument yet.
  • Robinson, although targeted for a transfer to AC Milan, was being pursued as a backup - something that was highly noted and no secret. Does he have an argument? Yes. But you're disqualifying Long because his supposed ceiling (according to you) is at the bottom of the Championship... which is exactly where Robinson is playing at the moment.
  • If you really want to have an honest convo, Chandler is behind Yedlin in the pecking order.
  • And also, if Ledezma had world class ability, he wouldn't be playing in the 2nd division in Holland. Plain and simple.
You claim that people are overhyping MLS guys because they are fans of MLS. The truth of the matter is that you're guilty of the exact same thing, except its with anyone playing in Europe.

camparkinson
Post #48
Monday February 3, 2020 5:14pm

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 340
Chandler is another example of a player who is clearly talented but has always looks absolutely terrible in the USA shirt and has never shown a desire to work hard when wearing it... no thanks.

Yedlin should be a lock it in starter given his experience and skill set but he reliably falls asleep on the back post to allow goals over and over... no thanks.

Robinson should be given more looks but in his chances has not looked good.

Also, calm down on Ladezma... I am excited about his potential but to say he's a world class player now is insanity...

Holmes is the one who really has been snubbed and needs to not just get a look but a start in March... please make this happen Berhalter.

bjelks
Post #49
Monday February 3, 2020 5:45pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
@cudevil I don't consider Robinson in the Yedlin convo bcuz Robinson is a pure lb and Yedlin a pure rb. Also Robinson plays in the championship not league one
goalsense
bjelks
Post #50
Monday February 3, 2020 5:54pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from Know Nothing

Yes, but clearly Dest is one of our best attacking players period. I would rather have his main focus be attacking rather than defending. We have the luxury of other RB's so as to accommodate this.

I dare say if given the opportunity, Cannon could hold his own in the Championship and maybe a little higher. He has not done much of anything wrong so I do believe he has played his way into the equation.

If teams were built on individual talent and games were played on paper, that would be one thing. There are intangibles, like working within an existing squad, that have to be considered. Eleven players working together will usually defeat eleven players playing their own individual games.

A case in point to this would be Sasha Klestjan. Did well playing in Europe but struggled playing with us.

I would not say Robinson has played poorly, it is that he has played better when playing with players with similar training and technique than with players he is unfamiliar with that have been trained differently (read Europe vs MLS). Watch the newly integrated European trained guys...they have to hold the ball a little longer so as to figure out where the MLS guys are going to be. At club level that is usually rote.


I would argue that the best teams in the world can attack from every position and usually have collectively more individual talent than their opponents.
Take France for example, bc they are so talented individually they will win every physical battle and they also just happen to have more technical collective quality.
I wouldn't use Klestjan as an example, he was a decent player for the US when thriving at Anderlecht, but was very physically limited and was there later in his 20s.
Robinson is only 22 and is still very much growing.
Robinson is also very much more athletic than Sascha ever was
goalsense
bjelks
Post #51
Monday February 3, 2020 6:11pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from Lilshmike

@bjelks

Your Miazga vs Long take is reasonable. That being said though, you're still spewing a bunch of nonsense...
  • Richards plays in the 3rd division in Germany, below the level of MLS. He has no argument for inclusion over Long.
  • EPB plays in the Austrian league which is relatively the same level as MLS. He isn't even an every week starter. He hasn't created a compelling argument yet.
  • Robinson, although targeted for a transfer to AC Milan, was being pursued as a backup - something that was highly noted and no secret. Does he have an argument? Yes. But you're disqualifying Long because his supposed ceiling (according to you) is at the bottom of the Championship... which is exactly where Robinson is playing at the moment.
  • If you really want to have an honest convo, Chandler is behind Yedlin in the pecking order.
  • And also, if Ledezma had world class ability, he wouldn't be playing in the 2nd division in Holland. Plain and simple.
You claim that people are overhyping MLS guys because they are fans of MLS. The truth of the matter is that you're guilty of the exact same thing, except its with anyone playing in Europe.


Ully and Dest have proved that you can be a youth player or 3rd division player in Germany and still better than MLS vets.

EPB is an every week starter, so you either lied or was misinformed and he has made a few team of the weeks.

If 2 players have the same level of skill, I prefer the 1 with more athleticism and higher competition. Long has been exposed 1v1, vs Jamaica, Canada, and Venezuela.
I've never seen Richards or EPB look as bad as Long has looked 1v1

Chandler plays at a similar level to Yedlin, but we can all agree is much better going forward.
So I'm giving him the nod.

Ledezma is 19. Kante played in lower divisions until his mid 20s so that's not true.
World class ability means you can do world class things with the ball, which he can.
He's not in the 1st team right now bc they have questions about his physical strength.

If we've seen proof that guys at youth levels are better than mls and usmnt vets, why is it so hard to believe these young players which you haven't seen much of can be better than the mls vets you've seen fail consistently
goalsense
Spank
661
Post #52
Monday February 3, 2020 7:10pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 133
Based on the valuation of MLS players in this thread, the only non-MLS player that should be called into the NT is Pulisic. I occasionally visit this site from time to time and its become overrun by MLS fanboys. Why even continue to argue about it? You won! MLS is on par with the Premier League, Bundesliga, La Liga, etc. End of discussion.

Know Nothing
Post #53
Monday February 3, 2020 7:22pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,742
Original post from bjelks

I would argue that the best teams in the world can attack from every position and usually have collectively more individual talent than their opponents.
Take France for example, bc they are so talented individually they will win every physical battle and they also just happen to have more technical collective quality.


Well we are not one of the very best teams.

Tactically, if the opposition does not fear your attack they will move their outside backs way up the field, forcing your backs to defend most of the time. Unless you plan on counter attacking, your own backs will be pinned back. Not where we want Dest to be.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #54
Monday February 3, 2020 7:28pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 909
Original post from bjelks

Ully and Dest have proved that you can be a youth player or 3rd division player in Germany and still better than MLS vets.

EPB is an every week starter, so you either lied or was misinformed and he has made a few team of the weeks.

If 2 players have the same level of skill, I prefer the 1 with more athleticism and higher competition. Long has been exposed 1v1, vs Jamaica, Canada, and Venezuela.
I've never seen Richards or EPB look as bad as Long has looked 1v1

Chandler plays at a similar level to Yedlin, but we can all agree is much better going forward.
So I'm giving him the nod.

Ledezma is 19. Kante played in lower divisions until his mid 20s so that's not true.
World class ability means you can do world class things with the ball, which he can.
He's not in the 1st team right now bc they have questions about his physical strength.

If we've seen proof that guys at youth levels are better than mls and usmnt vets, why is it so hard to believe these young players which you haven't seen much of can be better than the mls vets you've seen fail consistently


TBH I don't know why guys focus so much on where players play their club football. If a guy can ball it doesn't really matter. Many of the Euro players we love so much recently played in MLS including Uly who played at Galaxy II two years ago. I think that no one here would argue that we don't want Arriola, Rodan, Trapp, Zardes etc. starting at the World Cup. I am not opposed to giving guys in 2nd or 3rd division Euro leagues a shot. Once again, if they can ball what does it matter.

Lilshmike
Post #55
Monday February 3, 2020 7:45pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,319
Original post from Spank

Based on the valuation of MLS players in this thread, the only non-MLS player that should be called into the NT is Pulisic. I occasionally visit this site from time to time and its become overrun by MLS fanboys. Why even continue to argue about it? You won! MLS is on par with the Premier League, Bundesliga, La Liga, etc. End of discussion.
Who ever even made that claim?

whyneverme
Post #56
Monday February 3, 2020 7:48pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 53
Ledezma is not a world class #10.....If he were he would be playing on a world class first team. He may have the potential to be one eventually, but he isn't yet.

chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #57
Monday February 3, 2020 7:48pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,531
Although I offer opinions on MLS players and Euro players, I'm not stuck on or hype one league over another. I don't care where they play or the quality of their individual clubs. I only value how they perform when they're playing for the nats. That is the ONLY thing that matters to me. Some guys play on big clubs and perform poorly with the nats. There could be many reasons for that, but I don't really care. Some guys play well for the nats and happen to be currently playing at lower level clubs...don't care about that either.

I don't care how old they are as long as they look good with the nats. Like someone mentioned there are intangibles that come into play...and those things are positive to team chemistry and performance...players that bring other players together making the team function better as a collective.

Lilshmike
Post #58
Monday February 3, 2020 8:19pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,319
Original post from bjelks

Ully and Dest have proved that you can be a youth player or 3rd division player in Germany and still better than MLS vets.

EPB is an every week starter, so you either lied or was misinformed and he has made a few team of the weeks.

If 2 players have the same level of skill, I prefer the 1 with more athleticism and higher competition. Long has been exposed 1v1, vs Jamaica, Canada, and Venezuela.
I've never seen Richards or EPB look as bad as Long has looked 1v1

Chandler plays at a similar level to Yedlin, but we can all agree is much better going forward.
So I'm giving him the nod.

Ledezma is 19. Kante played in lower divisions until his mid 20s so that's not true.
World class ability means you can do world class things with the ball, which he can.
He's not in the 1st team right now bc they have questions about his physical strength.

If we've seen proof that guys at youth levels are better than mls and usmnt vets, why is it so hard to believe these young players which you haven't seen much of can be better than the mls vets you've seen fail consistently
Again, you're contradicting your own arguments here.

Long hasn't faced good competition is a claim you're making, and that we can't rate him because he hasn't faced good competition internationally and is in MLS... but then you also make the claim that Llanez showed his class in this last USMNT match... in a game against a Costa Rica B team...

I'm not ragging on Llanez, only pointing out that you're applying an inconsistent standard. And for what its worth, Dest got into the national team after breaking into the first team at Ajax... not the other way around. So your use of him as an example is a poor one.

You're tooting a horn on Ledezma thats just craziness too. At his age, Pulisic was playing regularly for a better team in a better league. Pulisic is the closest thing we have to a world class player... and even he isn't world class. Hes on the cusp, but he isn't there yet. Ledezma may have potential to be good down the road... but throwing world class in to describe him is actually ridiculous. He is in the 2nd division in Holland. Neymar was tiny when he went to Barcelona. He is world class. If you're world class, then teams find a way to get you in the game. Ledezma just isn't there yet. Plain and simple.

EPB is playing at a level comparable to MLS. Not saying that he shouldn't be in the conversation, but he should in no way get brownie points for being in Europe when compared to the rest of the field given he is basically playing at the same level as MLS. Long and Zimmerman have done good enough to earn their spot on the roster, or at the very least, be part of the debate. Miazga, Brooks, and Ream too. With a number of guys in front of EPB, hes on the outside looking in and hasn't created a very strong argument yet. Thats before even mentioning Richards who is essentially playing at the USL level.

And no, I don't think we can all agree that Chandler is better going forward than Yedlin.

bjelks
Post #59
Monday February 3, 2020 8:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from Know Nothing

Well we are not one of the very best teams.

Tactically, if the opposition does not fear your attack they will move their outside backs way up the field, forcing your backs to defend most of the time. Unless you plan on counter attacking, your own backs will be pinned back. Not where we want Dest to be.


Part of the reason we're not a very good team is bc we don't play our best players bc they aren't playing regularly for a big club or have 100 mls starts lol.

Lol if we had Dest and Robinson on the field with Adams, Mckennie, and Holmes pressing they'd have to respect our attack or get burned
goalsense
bjelks
Post #60
Monday February 3, 2020 8:24pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,416
Original post from whyneverme

Ledezma is not a world class #10.....If he were he would be playing on a world class first team. He may have the potential to be one eventually, but he isn't yet.


And I said he has world class ability meaning technique and instincts.
You need those before you become a world class player
Also stated his issue is physical strength
goalsense
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