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Lilshmike
Post #16
Saturday November 23, 2019 6:28pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
@Dave

It's a case by case basis, and just because a player is in a higher league, doesnt mean automatically that they are more deserving of a call up than someone in a lower league. Also, we have to take into consideration the gaps in level. As I had pointed out, anywhere within about a +/- 5 point should be considered on about the same level. So an average team in Austria, Belgium, Turkey, Denmark, 2 Bundesliga and Netherlands should be viewed as comparable to an average MLS team where those players do not have an advantage over MLS counterparts simply by being in those leagues.

Dave
Post #17
Sunday November 24, 2019 2:50am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,027
@Lilshmike, while I get what you're saying, Berhaulter is still favoring some MLS players over options playing in better or equal leagues. MLS Players who've been playing poorly (Lovitz, Trapp, Roldan, Baird) or players who've been wildly inconsistent (Zimmerman), have constantly been called up instead of testing other players in the pool who are at better or equal levels of competition.
Alvarado - hasn't been called into a camp yet Zimmerman, M. Robinson, and an "Older" player in Ream have. Same case can be made for Cameron, CCV & EPB.
A. Robinson - has been in 1 Camp and played in a game against Jamaica where everyone looked bad, and yet he's been overlooked for Lovitz....a player who's looked bad every time he's stepped on the field.
Fabian - While now a sub at the club level and is getting up there in age, is still a better player (at positions of need) than Baird & Lovitz.
Green - has been a key contributor for his mid-level club in the B-2, yet has been consistently overlooked for Roldan, Baird, and others.
-
I'm not saying that these players are instantly better than MLS player because they are playing abroad. I'm saying that these types of players deserve an opportunity to be called into a camp over MLS players who have shown repetitively that they cannot play at the International Level.
-
Trapp is a player that many people come back to and try to explain away with statements like "it doesn't matter, because he's an unused sub"...or "it doesn't matter because he's 4th or 5th in the depth chart at his position". I happen to disagree with these types of statements. If Trapp keeps getting camp call-ups than in the future if we have a Rash of injuries or illnesses at his position, he'll be the one GB turns to because he's familiar with the players and the tactics. This honestly thinking Trapp could possibly start a game in the HEX, scares the crap out of me, and should others as well.
-
Berhaulter should be testing the waters of the player pool. Searching & trying to determine who his best 23-30 players are, and calling them up for camps. Each camp should have 3-4 new faces in it....and they should be players who play at positions of need and/or concern. Drop the 3-4 worst performers from the previous camp and call in some new faces.

BG6
Post #18
Sunday November 24, 2019 1:14pm

Joined May 2014
Total Posts: 91
Just a general comment, it's a great topic and a nice way of framing it. I appreciate it and at least with this sort of statistical analysis an attempt is made to remove subjectivity. Thankd to Lilshmike for it

However I'd make a argument that league and player's quality may be just as dictated by what happens out of possession and off the ball which is much harder to be measured by statistics.

I'd also say the 5 point margin for equivalence is a bit arbitrary. I will avoid comment on other leagues within that window compared to MLS that I haven't seen. I can say I am STH for an MLS team and I have traveled for 16 years back and forth to Switzerland multiple times per year for work and have seen more than 20 matches in person when I am there over weekends. I've been to 4 Eredivisie matches as well (albeit all involved Ajax so maybe not fair comparison). Most matches I've seen for both these leagues I'd argue was much better than the average MLS match. On the other side of the coin I've been to 3 bundesliga2 matches (when Freiburg went down) and there is think it's probably pretty close or even slight edge to MLS (one of the ones I was at was almost unwatchable). Of course maybe I haven't seen enough for any of these leagues to refute the ranks or the 5 point window so take the comments for what they are.

Overall, no problem if people want to use this as metrics for comparing league quality rather than actually watching matches. What I would say is that if this is done then there can be no criticism of others to call in players they have never seen in person if they can link to some statistics/rankings. To me doing all this implies we shouldn't even bother to ever watch and make our own minds up which takes a little bit of the fun out of it. Just my two cents. Thanks for the great thread.

BG6
Post #19
Sunday November 24, 2019 2:07pm

Joined May 2014
Total Posts: 91
A couple other thoughts, I think this all started with a debate on Sweden versus MLS. I've never been to a match in Sweden nor have I watched matches on TV so hard to comment. What I will say is I don't think success or failure of limited players between leagues is a good metric. There are a lot of reasons for success or failure outside a gap in quality of the leagues. The coach, league playing style, geography, difficulty adapting culturally, teammates, just being homesick all play a role.

Finally, Id say if I had to evaluate "quality" or league for ones I hadn't seen in person, my metrics might be very different. Outside the top say 6-10 on this list, I'd probably rather use development as (albeit arbitrary) metric. How well does the league prepare players to play in a higher league? How successful is the national team and how much of the foundation of the national team was built from players starting in that league? On those metrics Scandinavian leagues are pretty strong

NEPA
Post #20
Sunday November 24, 2019 3:26pm

Joined Jan 2018
Total Posts: 2
This thread is 100% why I keep coming back to this site, if never posting. Thanks!

Lilshmike
Post #21
Sunday November 24, 2019 7:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from Dave

@Lilshmike, while I get what you're saying, Berhaulter is still favoring some MLS players over options playing in better or equal leagues. MLS Players who've been playing poorly (Lovitz, Trapp, Roldan, Baird) or players who've been wildly inconsistent (Zimmerman), have constantly been called up instead of testing other players in the pool who are at better or equal levels of competition.
Alvarado - hasn't been called into a camp yet Zimmerman, M. Robinson, and an "Older" player in Ream have. Same case can be made for Cameron, CCV & EPB.
A. Robinson - has been in 1 Camp and played in a game against Jamaica where everyone looked bad, and yet he's been overlooked for Lovitz....a player who's looked bad every time he's stepped on the field.
Fabian - While now a sub at the club level and is getting up there in age, is still a better player (at positions of need) than Baird & Lovitz.
Green - has been a key contributor for his mid-level club in the B-2, yet has been consistently overlooked for Roldan, Baird, and others.
-
I'm not saying that these players are instantly better than MLS player because they are playing abroad. I'm saying that these types of players deserve an opportunity to be called into a camp over MLS players who have shown repetitively that they cannot play at the International Level.
-
Trapp is a player that many people come back to and try to explain away with statements like "it doesn't matter, because he's an unused sub"...or "it doesn't matter because he's 4th or 5th in the depth chart at his position". I happen to disagree with these types of statements. If Trapp keeps getting camp call-ups than in the future if we have a Rash of injuries or illnesses at his position, he'll be the one GB turns to because he's familiar with the players and the tactics. This honestly thinking Trapp could possibly start a game in the HEX, scares the crap out of me, and should others as well.
-
Berhaulter should be testing the waters of the player pool. Searching & trying to determine who his best 23-30 players are, and calling them up for camps. Each camp should have 3-4 new faces in it....and they should be players who play at positions of need and/or concern. Drop the 3-4 worst performers from the previous camp and call in some new faces.
Dont disagree on Alvarado, Robinson, and Green. FabJo hasn't created a strong argument at the moment, though. Hes been hurt and hasn't had much playing time this season. Would I take him over other options for a one off game? Sure. But hes going to be 35 at the next WC, so it becomes a decision of whether we keep him in the fold in hope that hes still around then, or start bringing in new faces who have more years ahead of them.

I'm in favor of having Johnson involved, but just dont feel that at this time hes created a strong argument to be included until he gets back to health and gets games at his club.

cudevil
Post #22
Sunday November 24, 2019 11:50pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,015
Appreciate the list. Just confirms for me that the pool should be expanded significantly.

yodaddy101
Post #23
Monday November 25, 2019 12:57am

Joined Aug 2013
Total Posts: 165
the fact there are 18 different leagues higher than MLS and we don't have the ability to locate more dual nationals really bothers me a lot. the Federation needs to create a recruiting office or something because this just shows the recruiting process is abysmal, even in our own country, though improvements seem to becoming at a snails pace.
Ride or Die. -USMNT
bjelks
Post #24
Monday November 25, 2019 4:54am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,425
Sabbi drew a penalty with a clever dribble against the #2 in Denmark
https://twitter.com/classicasn/status/1198632...

Duane Holmes had a man of the match performance
https://twitter.com/zlebmada/status/119880389...

Joel Sonora has the game winning assist in Argentina
https://twitter.com/briansciaretta/status/119...
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #25
Monday November 25, 2019 4:57am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 168
This was a great thread less bickering and more point by point analysis. Thanks Lilshmike and Dave. I believe we should see players in person as to make a fair an accurate comparison.

Yodaddy, I nominate Demarcus Beasley to scout foreign dual nationals.

camparkinson
Post #26
Monday November 25, 2019 6:17am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 340
I'd love to see Sabbi/Sonora with the group but seems they want to keep them at their levels (U20/U23) which seems odd...

I still don't understand how Holmes wasn't in the camp...

Samtom23
Post #27
Monday November 25, 2019 6:56am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 168
Sabbi drew a penalty in the box but missed the resulting PK yesterday. He also shot straight at the keeper but yes I think you need Sabbi with the full USMNT and you can let Soto stay with the U20's. I think you need to give Sargent someone to compete with and create the depth that has been talked about in this thread.

bjelks
Post #28
Monday November 25, 2019 2:28pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,425
Sabbi is a winger so he'd compete with Morris, Arriola, Baird
goalsense
blaise213
Post #29
Monday November 25, 2019 7:51pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,051
#13 Super Liga Argentina
#19 MLS ( should be below bundesliga 2)

Just watched a 30 second clip of Joel Sonora's deflection assist. The league looks a million times better that MLS. But we have Will Trapp ( scored 0 goals in 2019)

Lilshmike
Post #30
Monday November 25, 2019 8:44pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,350
Original post from blaise213

#13 Super Liga Argentina
#19 MLS ( should be below bundesliga 2)

Just watched a 30 second clip of Joel Sonora's deflection assist. The league looks a million times better that MLS. But we have Will Trapp ( scored 0 goals in 2019)
You could determine the quality of the league after watching a 5 second clip? Impressive

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