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Lilshmike
Post #541
Friday November 22, 2019 7:14pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from Samtom23

I wouldn't call Fabian in at this point as a player. I might consider him as a special advisor.

Also, my point is it is hard to compare team and leagues. So players playing in MLS and leagues in Sweden, Denmark and Norway, we cannot definitely say are better or worse than MLS.

Back to our player pool. We have glaring weaknesses at forward and left back. So I think wise to look for depth. I mention Haji not because I think he is great but I think he could be a filler for the time being. If you say Soto or Nokavich isn't ready, use Haji for a match or two. Haji is a not a great example, I think Sabbi is a much better option but that clearly isn't happening for whatever reason.

Also, you mentioned dual nationals Kik Pierre and Jeremy Toljan. There hasn't been any pursuit of them since Sacharan was coach as near as I can tell. What about Siebatchu and Tillman. It seems all quiet on those fronts. Is GB make calls behind the scenes? Or just doing the same old, same old.
Great point... so from that perspective, we have to look at those players based on their production. Are they playing consistently? Are they producing for their position? Do they have a compelling argument to remove someone currently in the team?

Thats it. Its very simple. And again... if we assume those leagues are equal to MLS... a guy scoring 5 goals (Sabbi) vs a guy who scores 10+ (Zardes or whoever)... its not a controversial debate. The player with more goals has created a better argument than the one who hasn't. It then becomes a debate where the people arguing for inclusion of the guy scoring 5 goals are doing so based on the sole point of that player being in Europe.

I'm sorry, but from a logical perspective... thats pretty spot on. When Players X and Y play in different leagues that are relatively equal in strength, the player who plays more and produces better numbers/stats/performances has the advantage. Certainly there can be an exception... but thats the rationale.

Lilshmike
Post #542
Friday November 22, 2019 7:21pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from db707

@Lilshmike, Sabbi has 6 goals in 16 games, Zardes had 13 in 28 games. Not a huge disparity, and Sabbi can still catch up in the strike rate (scored in his last 3 games). Number of games those goals were scored in (and how many minutes per game the player is getting) do need to be taken into account for context.
Totally agree, and I said before that if Sabbi continues to score then he has created a compelling case. But at this time he has yet to do so. By that, I mean that he hasn't done enough to demonstrate that he is worth taking a look at over any other guy in our pool who has similar stats in a league of comparable strength.

From that perspective, its not a crime that Sabbi wasn't picked (as some have claimed). Thats not to say he can't get a look in the future, but his production to this point hasn't created a compelling argument to where his exclusion is noteworthy.

Holmes excluded - noteworthy
Green excluded - noteworthy
Miazga excluded - noteworthy
Morales excluded - noteworthy
Sabbi excluded - not noteworthy

cudevil
Post #543
Friday November 22, 2019 7:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 989
@lilshmike...here is what you said:

"I will not support calling in youth kids who:

play on youth or reserve teams
play in 2nd and 3rd division leagues in Europe (excluding the Championship and 2 Bundesliga)
aren't playing consistently at a first division that is at or below the MLS (ie leagues like Denmark, Norway, Sweden)
are on a team in a league better than MLS, but fail to consistently play and/or produce for their position with respect to other players in the pool (Haji Wright is an example of this)"

How exactly did I misstate or misunderstand what you wrote-particularly given point no. 2?

Regardless, the point stands: how do you determine which leagues are or are not at MLS level?

Lilshmike
Post #544
Friday November 22, 2019 8:01pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from cudevil

@lilshmike...here is what you said:

"I will not support calling in youth kids who:

play on youth or reserve teams
play in 2nd and 3rd division leagues in Europe (excluding the Championship and 2 Bundesliga)
aren't playing consistently at a first division that is at or below the MLS (ie leagues like Denmark, Norway, Sweden)
are on a team in a league better than MLS, but fail to consistently play and/or produce for their position with respect to other players in the pool (Haji Wright is an example of this)"

How exactly did I misstate or misunderstand what you wrote-particularly given point no. 2?

Regardless, the point stands: how do you determine which leagues are or are not at MLS level?
The 2nd divisions in England and Germany are at a pretty decent level. I would say that MLS is comparable to those levels, I wouldn't say any are definitively better than MLS... but the top tier of the Championship likely is in my mind. Maybe Spain is in there too... but we don't really have players in that league to where its anything to analyze or worry about.

Every other country though... is not. The second division pretty much everywhere else (like France, Italy, Holland, France, etc.) is not at a level where any player playing in those leagues should receive any preference over any player playing in MLS (or league of comparable quality).

Player X scores 10 goals in MLS and Player Y scores 10 goals in the Championship. Player Y has a compelling argument.

Player X scores 10 goals in MLS and Player Y scores 10 goals in the 2nd division of Italy. Player Y, although the stats are similar, doesn't really have a more compelling argument over Player X. Thats not to say that player should not get a look, but that Player Y should get no special treatment or brownie points simply because they are in Europe.

Take Novakovich. He couldn't make it in the Championship. Went to the 2nd division in Holland. He scored goals, a lot of them, and made a case. Moved up to the top flight in Holland, scored less but still a considerable amount compared in number to MLS counterparts. Had an argument. In both instances, he got called in. Noteworthy.

He went back to the Championship, couldn't cut it, left for the 2nd division in Italy, and now isn't a consistent starter and isn't scoring goals at a lower level. He has no argument.

Hold up though on the comparing of league strengths, I am working on something. I am running numbers on Nate Silvers site to put a tangible value on league strength. I am doing this unbiased and my opinion has been put out there, so everyone is welcome to punch holes in my statements if they wish.

Hopefully we can use this to guide the discussion with some sort of statistical/objective basis instead of having to rely on bjelks ability to simply see world class talent with his eyes.

blaise213
Post #545
Monday November 25, 2019 7:52pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,993
Holmes man of the match but we have Roldan and Trapp

Samtom23
Post #546
Tuesday November 26, 2019 1:28am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 122
Original post from Lilshmike

Great point... so from that perspective, we have to look at those players based on their production. Are they playing consistently? Are they producing for their position? Do they have a compelling argument to remove someone currently in the team?

Thats it. Its very simple. And again... if we assume those leagues are equal to MLS... a guy scoring 5 goals (Sabbi) vs a guy who scores 10+ (Zardes or whoever)... its not a controversial debate. The player with more goals has created a better argument than the one who hasn't. It then becomes a debate where the people arguing for inclusion of the guy scoring 5 goals are doing so based on the sole point of that player being in Europe.

I'm sorry, but from a logical perspective... thats pretty spot on. When Players X and Y play in different leagues that are relatively equal in strength, the player who plays more and produces better numbers/stats/performances has the advantage. Certainly there can be an exception... but thats the rationale.


Samtom23
Post #547
Tuesday November 26, 2019 2:13am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 122
I am not sold on your logic lilshmike.

Look at Sabbi. He is playing consistently and his production is ok. Look at our depth at forward under GB. Consistently it is Jozy, Zardes and Sargent. We cannot count on Jozy because injury and age. Zardes you yourself do not rate that highly. Sargent is a work in progress.

So why not bring someone like Sabbi into the fold? And remember we are not just playing for now but for two years from now. And again, you mentioned you don't like Trapp on the roster. So why not have Sabbi take Trapp's roster spot? I can easily make that argument.

And you make a wrong assumption about Euro based. I look at the currently USMNT MLS forwards and they are just not there yet. I see Jonathan Lewis more as a winger than a forward, you can make the argument for Mason Toye but I am not totally familiar with his game and the bits I have seen he doesn't seem like a difference maker at this point. But if he was lighting up MLS, than I would argue for him.

I think of Miguel Almiron. He lit up MLS and cannot get a goal to save his life in the Premier League with Newcastle. He goes to his Paraguay National Team and scores a dandy. My point is you cannot always rely solely on the club situation. You have to look at your own situation and make the best decisions based on that.

USMNT situation is we lack forwards and left backs. So we should see new faces at those positions each camp. Berhalter seems to rely on club situations to make HIS coaching decisions for him with the exception of his guys. Trapp stopped starting but he still gets a call-up. That defies GB's own criteria.

And again, I want to point out GB doesn't seem to have a plan except to go month by month and not eyeing the goal of World Cup qualification and advancement. It would be wise to get some of this players in the camp getting familiar with teammates and playing style. Building chemistry.

For the record, I mentioned Haji but by no means do I think he is a world beater. I think he is a possible depth piece. He is what 6'5? And he has pace. You bring him in when you need an equalizer with ten minutes to go and the other team has been suspect on set pieces. Or you bring him in on that physical game were the opponent has knocked CP off the ball consistently. Keep the other team honest.

bjelks
Post #548
Tuesday November 26, 2019 3:50am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
Sabbi is a winger not a 9
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #549
Tuesday November 26, 2019 5:11am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 122
Robert Firmino isn't a true 9 either. But that's coaching, identify and making use of what's available. But I am open to any possible players at forward for USMNT.

It may sound like a weak argument but I am open to any attacking threat. And Sabbi has scored five goals in 11 appearances.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #550
Tuesday November 26, 2019 5:16am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,450
Definitely would like to see Sabbi at some point. He is really starting to come into his own at Hobro.

bjelks
Post #551
Tuesday November 26, 2019 5:51am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
Original post from Samtom23

Robert Firmino isn't a true 9 either. But that's coaching, identify and making use of what's available. But I am open to any possible players at forward for USMNT.

It may sound like a weak argument but I am open to any attacking threat. And Sabbi has scored five goals in 11 appearances.


My pt is we need wingers more than 9s
goalsense
Samtom23
Post #552
Tuesday November 26, 2019 8:37am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 122
I see. But I disagree and that is ok.

We got Weah when he returns from injury. He is more of winger than a striker from what I can see. And I think Weah will make a full recover so this time next year, we have LW and RW covered with CP and Weah, respectively.

I know some may make the argument for Morris at RW and I am ok with him there as well, but I think Weah has more upside. Morris is a little more proven

bjelks
Post #553
Tuesday November 26, 2019 11:36am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
Lol I don't see Morris as a national team player and I don't think he's made an impact against a quality side. I'm not considering the Mexican b-team.
goalsense
Know Nothing
Post #554
Tuesday November 26, 2019 5:37pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,699
Well I do think the play of Morris warrants his inclusion with the squad.

I do not believe he is a winger and I would not consider him a #9. He can do both in a pinch but I believe his best position for us would be as a second striker playing off the #9. Sort of like an impoverished man's Michael Owen.

As Samtom said, looks like Weah will man the wing opposite CP next year if we play with wingers. But if we are playing a team that is willing to sit back and are not going to play a true #10, then perhaps Morris could fill in where let's say Roldan was supposedly supposed to play.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #555
Thursday November 28, 2019 6:00pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,450
Morris is definitely a 23 man player for this USMNT. And I am not convinced Weah is a winger. I would like to see Sabbi start getting minutes.

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