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bjelks
Post #511
Thursday November 21, 2019 3:36pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
I wouldn't call someone who plays in an inferior league to our best striker our best striker.

And I don't think kids should aspire to be MLS players when we have guys in the EPL and Bundesliga.

This is a tough game and no one ever wins intl trophies by being comfortable and not playing at the highest club level
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #512
Thursday November 21, 2019 4:08pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from stoked3

Its not just the fans, most US analysts, former players agree the team is a mess. To say we are in line with expectations is what Jay, Ernie, Greg say everyone else seems to have more faith in the players. We have gone from being lock to make WC, to expecting getting out of the group, to maybe advancing further, to not qualifying, losing to Canada and being happy about then beating canada at home-that buddy is a fall from grace.

You are right we do have 11 good players and then we have depth players whom are good as well, however they do not get a chance.

Random guys like: Green (who has scored in a WC) Fabian-we played great in WC, Holmes who is in form and showed well for the Nats, JS who plays and scores in a top 5 league but can't beat out bardes, Trapp/Roldon getting called over Williams, Pomk, etc

Your quote finally admits your bias against players abroad-Im curious why, but I guess you answered that by saying the team is where it should be, everyone else in the US wants the team to progress further at a very min we should be where we were 8 years ago where making the WC was a given.

You say we have a solid 11 and we can progress in WC but then say we lack talent?

You further say progression takes time-how much time are you looking for? It has been 2 yrs since the debacle at t/t, since then we haven't progressed-we haven't tried out many new players, our young players who have potential to be world class sit or don't get called up and they can't beat out bunk mls guys.

Yes we are beyond annoyed that trap gets called if GB doesnt rate him don't call in, bring in someone new, but he clearly rates: roldon, lovitz, ream, zardes , we had lovitz start over Dest-what planet does that make sense, if you want to theorize he did that so they didn't get hurt well then why not bring more fringe players.

It was funny reading all the pundits grade for the 2019 yr, I didn't read any that gave this team better than a C-, most giving them a D to d-.

Most of us believe in this team, the potential, the potential depth pieces, and wanting to try new people-we don't believe in GB to put them in the right spots, or call in the best players, or take risk with call ups, or US soccer to look out for the team minus the MLS guys.
Haha is this post a joke?

First and foremost, are we better than Mexico? Unfortunately... no. We aren't even the best team in this region of the world anymore... and in the one tournament to play for that, we finished 2nd.. in line with realistic expectations. Now we're in Nations League and we got through to the semis with a chance to play for the title... in line with realistic expectations. Yeah, it sucks to lose friendlies, but what matters are results in competitive games. From that regard... yes, we are in line with expectations (Canada aside).

Again, quit the crap spewing about us being in danger of not qualifying for the WC. We haven't played a game yet, so that's just factually false. And as unfortunate that it was last time around that we didnt qualify, it was somewhat fluke-ish with respect to the other 2 results in the hex that night. Mexico found themselves in the same boat the previous WC in Brazil, in danger of not making the WC, and were lucky that Zusi scored a goal for us at the end of the Panama game to send them through. You're letting emotions guide you're reactions. That's fine, but it shows that you're lacking perspective.

And please, elaborate how my quote finally admits my bias against European players. Seriously, are you gonna put words in my mouth when you do that too? Hahaha that is just an absurd statement. The point I was making is that it doesn't matter who we play, it's not going to improve the team in the short term because this is the current talent level of our pool.

You and others have called for random guys in Europe whom you dont even watch or haven't seen play a full 90 minutes, simply because they play in Europe. That's nonsense... same as people crying over players like Sabbi, Ledezma, Soto, Novakovich, Williams, Gooch, Gall, Mendez, Wright, etc not getting called in. The reality is that they aren't good enough yet. And this isn't a situation where "oh, we don't know because we haven't seen them"... the standard is clear, and most if not all of those arent even playing consistently in leagues at or below MLS. Certainly there can be an exceptions, but that's the standard... the bare minimum... and they aren't meeting it and that's undeniable, so from that perspective, it's not good enough. End of debate.

I've stated consistently that Robinson, Green and Holmes have a case... why? Because they are playing and contributing for their positions in a league as good or better than MLS. That's the standard. End of debate.

Progress takes time... it takes time for these 17-20 year kids going to Europe to get on their feet and establish themselves (if they ever do), and once they get to that point, that's when we call them in. Its not the job of the national team manager to develop their talent, that's on them and their clubs. So until they can prove they have what it takes to be established starters/players for the senior team at their clubs, they should be in their appropriate age groups with the US setup and not the senior team... exactly as has been happening... in line with realistic expectations. That's not European bias... that's called reality.

Complaining about Dest not playing last game? Give me a break. Brooks didnt play either, but I don't see you bitching about it. But if Dest had played and got hurt, you and others would probably be claiming that Berhalter was stupid for jeopardizing him in the first place. There are backroom and locker room discussions that we as fans are not privy to. That was likely the driving force behind some of the changes against Cuba. That's nothing to get upset about... especially when we took care of business.

And again, do you have problems reading? How many times do I personally have to clarify that I dont like Lovits, Trapp, Roldan, or Zardes? Look back at my other posts, not wasting time on this again.

Oh, you say the pundits give us grades of D for performances this year? Cool, I read that article yesterday on NBC soccer too. Good job, bud. Great contribution to the debate.

Yes, our team has a good enough starting 11 (with everyone healthy and in form) to qualify and compete at the WC. I never said progress... I said compete. By that, I mean get decent results, not get embarrassed, and have a chance to progress. And yes, that's probably pretty accurate. We lack the top talent though to be at a point where we are good enough to expect to make the knockouts or compete with the best in the world. We need our younger players to continue to develop and hopefully realize their potential. That takes time though... as I was saying... and it won't happen overnight and it's not Berhalter or USSFs responsiblity to make it happen.

Your issue is with the messenger, not the message. That's cool, I get that, but just openly admit it next time you respond.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #513
Thursday November 21, 2019 4:30pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 871
Original post from bjelks

We haven't scored against Mexico in 2019.
He scored against Mexico's B team.
He's good at trying hard and running onto 2nd balls.
That doesn't make him good against high level competition or even playing a technical brand of soccer.
I don't believe he's earned his place, but he has the look and background us soccer wants to promote, he tries hard and has been effective against low level competition at the club and intl level.
I believe he is overhyped and it will take a miracle to get him out of the team.
There's no evidence that Ully, Konrad, Weah, Holmes, Sonora, or Sabbi wouldn't shred this competition but we'll never see because US Soccer only gives opportunities to youth and low tier league players that look like Morris.
He's everything that's wrong with the USMNT and the Fed.

If you want me to shut up and respect him, petition for him to go to Europe and earn a spot.
I doubt he will, because you guys praise his every mediocre move in mls


Nice post, I like that you stated this is your opinion!
I respect your opinion about Morris and I am not against bringing others in to give them a shot. To be fair to US Soccer we have a least played Weah when healthy. I think US soccer is trying to be careful with our younger guys after Freddy Adu, some of these guys need to play with their age level instead of being pushed right to first team. I know it's hard to wait when your first team is struggling. We were all hyped about Morris at first and then he got injured and kinda petered out. Now he is healthy and we see that potential again, I hope you're wrong and he is not over-hyped.

Lilshmike
Post #514
Thursday November 21, 2019 4:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from bjelks

We haven't scored against Mexico in 2019.
He scored against Mexico's B team.
He's good at trying hard and running onto 2nd balls.
That doesn't make him good against high level competition or even playing a technical brand of soccer.
I don't believe he's earned his place, but he has the look and background us soccer wants to promote, he tries hard and has been effective against low level competition at the club and intl level.
I believe he is overhyped and it will take a miracle to get him out of the team.
There's no evidence that Ully, Konrad, Weah, Holmes, Sonora, or Sabbi wouldn't shred this competition but we'll never see because US Soccer only gives opportunities to youth and low tier league players that look like Morris.
He's everything that's wrong with the USMNT and the Fed.

If you want me to shut up and respect him, petition for him to go to Europe and earn a spot.
I doubt he will, because you guys praise his every mediocre move in mls
Hahaha dude, you're still trying to push the whole racism thing with these posts. This is a complete and total joke at this point.

Thanks for providing my daily laugh, though. Your comedic posts on this site never disappoint.

bjelks
Post #515
Thursday November 21, 2019 4:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
Original post from Lilshmike

Hahaha dude, you're still trying to push the whole racism thing with these posts. This is a complete and total joke at this point.

Thanks for providing my daily laugh, though. Your comedic posts on this site never disappoint.


Really, tell me what Acosta did to get blackballed and what did Trapp, lovitz, Baird do to get a chance in the first place?
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #516
Thursday November 21, 2019 4:53pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from bjelks

Really, tell me what Acosta did to get blackballed and what did Trapp, lovitz, Baird do to get a chance in the first place?
Baird wasn't in the last team, buddy.

Everyone agrees on Lovitz and Trapp. Trapp doesn't even play though. You're beating a drum that just isn't true.

Know Nothing
Post #517
Thursday November 21, 2019 5:09pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,699
Original post from Lilshmike

Baird wasn't in the last team, buddy.

Everyone agrees on Lovitz and Trapp. Trapp doesn't even play though. You're beating a drum that just isn't true.


I am confused...where exactly did bjelks say "this team"? I don't recall him citing a specific time period, so why are you assigning one now? Isn't that putting words in someone's mouth? Or perhaps it is a reading comprehension issue?

Lilshmike
Post #518
Thursday November 21, 2019 5:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from Know Nothing

I am confused...where exactly did bjelks say "this team"? I don't recall him citing a specific time period, so why are you assigning one now? Isn't that putting words in someone's mouth? Or perhaps it is a reading comprehension issue?
Nope, reading comprehension is fine. Hes complaining about a guy who isn't even in the team. Its like complaining about Omar Gonzalez. Has he been called in before? Yes. But when was the last time he played?

I'm not putting words in his mouth, but if you're going to complain about one guy getting a look over another, start with who was in the roster that you don't feel should be there and then state who specifically would replace that person. Thats not what bjelks is doing though... hes grasping for straws and trying to blame certain player's inclusion/exclusion down to a racist agenda of USSoccer.

I am confused though... why are you defending bjelks? Do you agree with him and think that its racism that is driving player selections? There are certain things that are legitimately indefensible. Crying racism over and over again, when the facts of the program clearly say otherwise, is one of those things.

cudevil
Post #519
Thursday November 21, 2019 6:41pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 989
@lilshmike...if you don't rate Zardes or Lovitz, etc., then start banging the freaking drum for someone else, whether a younger MLS guy or a younger European guy. It is irrelevant if Zardes is the best guy right now (something that is hugely debatable). He won't be in '22.

There is no question that progress/development takes time. We are, however, actively and affirmatively slowing the progress every time we hand minutes to Zardes, Roldan, and Lovitz. We are slowing it be even calling Trapp into a camp, as it would be better to have a young guy familiarize himself with the senior set up so he is comfortable later on.

Using a bunch of dead enders right now because we are focused on a result in a C- level tournament is extremely short sighted. These are glorified friendlies. If they are looking to make a serious run at the Olympics, using the majority of the U23 team for these games would make far more sense.

Know Nothing
Post #520
Thursday November 21, 2019 6:46pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,699
Original post from Lilshmike

Nope, reading comprehension is fine. Hes complaining about a guy who isn't even in the team. Its like complaining about Omar Gonzalez. Has he been called in before? Yes. But when was the last time he played?

I'm not putting words in his mouth, but if you're going to complain about one guy getting a look over another, start with who was in the roster that you don't feel should be there and then state who specifically would replace that person. Thats not what bjelks is doing though... hes grasping for straws and trying to blame certain player's inclusion/exclusion down to a racist agenda of USSoccer.

I am confused though... why are you defending bjelks? Do you agree with him and think that its racism that is driving player selections? There are certain things that are legitimately indefensible. Crying racism over and over again, when the facts of the program clearly say otherwise, is one of those things.


BJelks has spoken of racism in the past. That is his assertion.

However, in this particular instance I don't see it being a racist argument. He is merely questioning why guys who have clearly not done much with the opportunities afforded to them in the past year are being called over a player that, in the past, has contributed to the team in meaningful matches.

He is merely saying USSoccer is making Jordan Morris the "Poster Boy" because he made the choice to join MLS over a Bundesliga team. Is there a racial meaning in there, perhaps, but I think the fact he chose MLS over Bundesliga is the main tenet of his MLS vs Euro argument.

And my motives are quite simple...you can't have it both ways. You are very quick to say you did not say this in this thread and correct things in minutia...well in this instance I do not believe bjelks mentioned race in this thread and you are reading into it what you want to, not the intent.

bjelks
Post #521
Thursday November 21, 2019 7:21pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
Original post from Lilshmike

Baird wasn't in the last team, buddy.

Everyone agrees on Lovitz and Trapp. Trapp doesn't even play though. You're beating a drum that just isn't true.


Let me beat this horse some more.
What the hell is the point of bringing in someone who has no chance of playing?
Why waste the damn roster spot?
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #522
Thursday November 21, 2019 7:32pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from cudevil

@lilshmike...if you don't rate Zardes or Lovitz, etc., then start banging the freaking drum for someone else, whether a younger MLS guy or a younger European guy. It is irrelevant if Zardes is the best guy right now (something that is hugely debatable). He won't be in '22.

There is no question that progress/development takes time. We are, however, actively and affirmatively slowing the progress every time we hand minutes to Zardes, Roldan, and Lovitz. We are slowing it be even calling Trapp into a camp, as it would be better to have a young guy familiarize himself with the senior set up so he is comfortable later on.

Using a bunch of dead enders right now because we are focused on a result in a C- level tournament is extremely short sighted. These are glorified friendlies. If they are looking to make a serious run at the Olympics, using the majority of the U23 team for these games would make far more sense.
I have been... multiple times. I've said over many threads, over multiple years, that LB is our perpetual weak spot. We need to get as many guys in at LB as we can to look at them.

Lovitz sucks. Robinson has earned a shot, but this last camp he was with the U23s and thats no big to me. If Dest plays LB moving forward, that would be fine. I don't see Ream as a LB. Hes a good LCB, and can fill in when needed and should be on the roster no doubt in my eyes. But he is not the answer. I personally like Greg Garza, but he can't stay healthy and hasn't put himself in the conversation recently. Fabian Johnson is injured and will be 35 next WC... hes on the cusp of being irrelevant now. I think we should press for Toljan and Kik Pierie... but not many people on this site have hardly paid any attention to those guys.

I have said we should have Roldan as a bench option at best. We need a better option. I have said that Green and Holmes have earned a shot. I like Hyndman, but he hasn't done enough to earn it yet. I think Nagbe would walk into the team... but he has made it clear he doesn't want to play for US at this time (maybe never again). Williams has fallen down the pecking order and isn't worthy of debate at this time. I think Trapp should be kicked to the curb... but lets see what happens when everyone is healthy and available for selection... something people continuously neglect when bitching about who gets called in.

The Zardes issue has been covered. Sorry, but no forwards in our pool are consistently playing and producing like him right now. Thats a fact. I hate it, and I don't like it, but other guys need to step up. For this reason, I'm not complaining because he has earned his place in the 23 right now until someone else steps up and starts putting up equal or better numbers in a league equal or better than MLS.

I 100% disagree with you about the U23 statement and the olympics. I think USSoccer is taking the right approach with that. I covered that in another post in this thread, look there if you want clarification.

Again... my stance (which is consistent with pretty much every national team manager in the world) is that in order to get called into the senior team, a player has to be playing and performing consistently for their club team at an acceptable bare minimum level. With respect to the US, that level is MLS. I will not support calling in youth kids who:
  • play on youth or reserve teams
  • play in 2nd and 3rd division leagues in Europe (excluding the Championship and 2 Bundesliga)
  • aren't playing consistently at a first division that is at or below the MLS (ie leagues like Denmark, Norway, Sweden)
  • are on a team in a league better than MLS, but fail to consistently play and/or produce for their position with respect to other players in the pool (Haji Wright is an example of this)
The standard is simple, and when players demonstrate they are good enough to play for their club senior teams, at a level as good or better than MLS, then I am in favor of giving them a shot. Until then, they should stay in their appropriate age group (as has been happening) until they prove otherwise.

This isn't controversial.

bjelks
Post #523
Thursday November 21, 2019 7:33pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,362
Original post from Lilshmike

Nope, reading comprehension is fine. Hes complaining about a guy who isn't even in the team. Its like complaining about Omar Gonzalez. Has he been called in before? Yes. But when was the last time he played?

I'm not putting words in his mouth, but if you're going to complain about one guy getting a look over another, start with who was in the roster that you don't feel should be there and then state who specifically would replace that person. Thats not what bjelks is doing though... hes grasping for straws and trying to blame certain player's inclusion/exclusion down to a racist agenda of USSoccer.

I am confused though... why are you defending bjelks? Do you agree with him and think that its racism that is driving player selections? There are certain things that are legitimately indefensible. Crying racism over and over again, when the facts of the program clearly say otherwise, is one of those things.


It's indefensible not to acknowledge that there is no rationale behind giving initial and even numerous follow- up call ups to guys that look like and have the background of Trapp, Lovitz, Baird who have never merited a call up in the 1st place and have always looked terrible then saying someone like Acosta who is proven at the intl level isn't good enough.

It's also indefensible not to acknowledge that minorities from mls or are a part of the good ole boy cash cow benefit from being a part of the system.

Then setting the bar for minorities, duals, and young players significantly higher by asking them to start and be highly rated at world class clubs to even be called in and have a chance to compete for spots against guys that can't play for their reserve teams.

This is a form of prejudice and it's bullshit.
And by not acknowledging it, you're supporting it
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #524
Thursday November 21, 2019 7:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from Know Nothing

BJelks has spoken of racism in the past. That is his assertion.

However, in this particular instance I don't see it being a racist argument. He is merely questioning why guys who have clearly not done much with the opportunities afforded to them in the past year are being called over a player that, in the past, has contributed to the team in meaningful matches.

He is merely saying USSoccer is making Jordan Morris the "Poster Boy" because he made the choice to join MLS over a Bundesliga team. Is there a racial meaning in there, perhaps, but I think the fact he chose MLS over Bundesliga is the main tenet of his MLS vs Euro argument.

And my motives are quite simple...you can't have it both ways. You are very quick to say you did not say this in this thread and correct things in minutia...well in this instance I do not believe bjelks mentioned race in this thread and you are reading into it what you want to, not the intent.
Are you saying that Morris hasn't done enough with his chance or hasn't earned the right to be in the national team? That is legitimately the name he mentioned in his post. Come on now.

Lilshmike
Post #525
Thursday November 21, 2019 7:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from bjelks

It's indefensible not to acknowledge that there is no rationale behind giving initial and even numerous follow- up call ups to guys that look like and have the background of Trapp, Lovitz, Baird who have never merited a call up in the 1st place and have always looked terrible then saying someone like Acosta who is proven at the intl level isn't good enough.

It's also indefensible not to acknowledge that minorities from mls or are a part of the good ole boy cash cow benefit from being a part of the system.

Then setting the bar for minorities, duals, and young players significantly higher by asking them to start and be highly rated at world class clubs to even be called in and have a chance to compete for spots against guys that can't play for their reserve teams.

This is a form of prejudice and it's bullshit.
And by not acknowledging it, you're supporting it
Point out where I mentioned Acosta. Haha you can't because I haven't. Thanks for putting words in my mouth (again).

Again.. what are you even talking about? We have guys from lots of races and backgrounds in our national team setup. Pretty much all have the same thing in common though... they are playing consistently at a level as good or better than MLS.

But, you've caught me. I support the racist USSoccer agenda. I also have a lunch meeting today with the Boogey Man so we can plan Thanksgiving next week with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

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