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Lilshmike
Post #331
Monday November 11, 2019 5:49am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from stoked3

1. Serious question: did you play club soccer or at any level past high school?

2. your reading comprehension sucks. I didn't mention Sabi go read it again before you start typing away.

3. Get off your high horse-you are not a soccer genius, your way of thinking in part is what is the problem with US soccer-people who believe thier way is the best, the status quo is good enough-get out of here with the crap-Im tired of hearing you say state your case-

4. You have no idea of soccer I watch or do not watch-do not attribute a fact to me that you have no clue if it is true. What I will say is NO I have not watched Danny Wiliams lately, I have caught some of EPB games certainly not all, nor I have even watch Fabian, but what I do know without a shadow of doubt is that they in thier current form whatever that is, is better than the mls guys being called up in front of them-ZERO chance Roldon/Trapp/Yeuil/ are better than Williams-ZERO chance Lovitz is better than Fabian, re Zimmerman-your assessment is somewhat accurate-he is serviceable-how do you know that? well b.c he has played-we know what he brings, he has hit his ceiling he will not get better. We do not know about EPB for ext times in the limited time he was up he looked good. Is he better on this level who knows-but what I do know is Cuba sucks and it makes sense to try new guys out at this level to see if they are better.

5. Your reading comprehension sucks again, out of the 13 names I gave-I believe 5 were mls guys, 1 mexican league, and the remaining were euro guys.

6. Since you demand it from everyone on the boards. Explain what: OG, Roldon, Bardes, Lovitz, Baird, Bradley, Trapp, have done on the INT level that merits their continued call ups-not talking clubs and I want examples from last 24 months-
6a. I rate Lima, and I am ok with giving Lewis a chance-but please tell me what they did at the club level that merited a call up

6b. Let stay within mls: was has Roldon shown you that merits he is better than Pomk ?

7. But if we were talking stats and club soccer: Why are you not calling for Wondo?

8. Simply put guys can play fine at club and not on INT level-your logic doesn't make sense. Some guys just need a chance.

9. Lima is a good example of needing a chance dude didn't start in MLS in for my money was a good Int right back for us. Cannon is another conversation-he didn't get called up, then he was brought in due to injury and we could argue he has been a bright spot-but with your logic neither of those 2 MLS guys would have been given a chance

10. you have to learn- people do not need to think like you, I for one have watched these guys enough to see you need a shake up. Lets use american football-how about Tanninghil the QB for the Texans-by all measures he was one of the worst QB last yr, the dolphins canned him-he starts last I think 2 weeks bc the QB in front of him was playing like shit, but still had better stats than Tanninghill, but they decided to start tanning hill to shake it up, guess what they looked better and have won, he is the long term answer-well he will be given a chance, prob not, but sometime you need to try something new. We missed a WC, we played well under DS, now we have GB and you said these guys would be phased out but here they are, we have not progressed, we need something new. The irony is above you stated you liked Zimmer b.c he has INT exp, we have alot of Euro guys and Diff mls guys who could have gained exp at this level but we decided to go for the status quo-sorry that is just not good enough.
1) Yes. I'm not going to list off my resume, but I've both played and coached. I'll leave it at that.

2) My post you responded to was in reference to calling for Sabbi. So yes, he was relevant whether you mentioned him or not because he was one of the catalysts for my initial engagement over the last few posts. No issues with reading comprehension, bud.

3) I'm not calling for status quo. I'm not saying that we shouldnt have new faces. I'm stating that there has to be some basis for calling guys in. Most of the guys people have called for, yourself included, have no compelling argument (if any argument) worth getting up in arms about. But, if you want to make a statement about soccer genius... I'm right more times than not when it comes to who is getting called in. That has nothing to do with status quo... that's because I'm legitimately paying attention to what the manager says and what our players are doing. I'm not throwing out random wild card names... the standard is simple. Play consistently at a level as good or better than MLS and produce for your position. That's it. That's not controversial.

4) You're arguing for players you haven't been watching. If you haven't seen them, then you really don't know. What someone did 3 years ago isn't the same as what they may or may not be doing now. Plain and simple. No sense in getting uptight over it or arguing over it, because its totally ignorant.

5) That's fine if you named non Euro guys. I singled out the ones you named who legitimately do not have an argument right now for inclusion in the national team. I also made a blanket statement on how a number of people on this site call for random guys simply because they play in Europe and have some blind belief that they are better than other options in MLS simply because they're in Europe. That's not me defending MLS, that's making note of that nonsense train of thought... that Europe = Better. When it comes to our player pool, that isn't exactly the case for every player in every position. Reading comprehension is fine again, bud.

6) Your reading comprehension is in question now... first off, is Omar Gonzalez in the most recent camp? Was he in the last one? No. Not only that, but I've consistently stated that I do not like those guys in particular, think we have better options, and would like to see them gone. Except for Bradley. I'm fine with Bradley in the 23 man roster and not as a starter. The problem though it that you're too stuck on making your point to realize that I've said that too many times. You want to know my stance, look back at previous posts in this thread.

7) Fair point on Wondo. He is at a point where he is aged out for next WC. Same reason we shouldn't call on Cameron anymore. But again, you're missing it. I'm not calling and supporting Zardes. My point is that whether we like it or not, he has pushed himself into contention for the national team. I want another guy in there as much as everyone else. But, considering his production in MLS and the rest of the forwards in our pool, its embarrassing that Zardes is at the top. And if someone is going to claim Sabbi should get a call, when we have multiple forwards in similar situations/levels putting up better numbers, then he doesn't have a strong case to be included over someone else who has been more productive. That's rational, logical, and the exact reason that some of these guys get called in. I know people who were involved in the pre WC 2014 camp with Klinsmann as both players and coaches. The "rationale" for Landon Donovan getting cut was that he had the worst stats of winning scrimmages and mini games of any of the forward players at camp. Guess who had one of the highest ratings tho... Wondo. Doesn't mean I always support it, but if someone is going to make a case for player X over player Y, there has to be some basis other than "we've seen him and we need someone else". That's not compelling enough.

8) My logic is sound. Plenty of guys can do it at the club level. Not all can do it at the international level. But guess what all the guys who are doing it at the international level have in common... they're all doing it for their clubs too. Just because you're successful at club, does not mean you will be successful at international. However, if they can't even do it for club... then theres no reason to believe that they are going to magically do it for the international level. I dont know how it can get any more simple than that.

9) Lima got his initial shot after playing consistently for club. Not the other way around. Lewis is a better example of the point you're trying to make. And to be clear, I'm not in favor of it. I think there are other people they could have taken a look at and rewarded for their performances for club instead of sticking with a guy who hasn't been a consistent starter in MLS.

10) My point on Zimmerman was that there isn't really a reason to complain about the guy. It's not like any other guys have created a compelling argument to be included in the national team, and it's not like hes done a bad job when hes played. Theres not real reason to get up in arms about his inclusion over a someone else. It's not like you're swapping him out for someone who is head and shoulders better. You would simply be changing good enough player 1 for good enough player 2. It's nothing to complain about.

hamsamwich
Post #332
Monday November 11, 2019 1:07pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
I think where a lot of people have a problem is that Zimmerman has looked average at best (he had a really poor semifinal against Seattle) recently both for club and country. In MLS, Miazga was better than Zimmerman is now, and after being transferred abroad, Miazga has played in more than one league. There's an undercurrent to the call ups, that a certain number of MLS guys have to be picked. That's been rumored since Juergen days, and when a Zimmerman is brought in over other guys who are more deserving (Alvarado in a more difficult league comes to mind), people question it. Just like the Roldan, Trapp, Lovitz callups. It's a head scratcher at best. But getting lost over who is called in, rather than how all these guys are used is a red herring. The real problem is lack of a defined style of play and being soft on the soccer field. That's not an mLS problem, it's a Berhalter problem.

Samtom23
Post #333
Monday November 11, 2019 2:21pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 459
I think the problem is that there are only 26 spots so each spot matters. But Berhalter gives spots away to players that don't merit. I think we all agree Holmes has shown more than Roldan.

And the lack of experimentation with different players is confounding.

Lilshmike
Post #334
Monday November 11, 2019 3:04pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from hamsamwich

I think where a lot of people have a problem is that Zimmerman has looked average at best (he had a really poor semifinal against Seattle) recently both for club and country. In MLS, Miazga was better than Zimmerman is now, and after being transferred abroad, Miazga has played in more than one league. There's an undercurrent to the call ups, that a certain number of MLS guys have to be picked. That's been rumored since Juergen days, and when a Zimmerman is brought in over other guys who are more deserving (Alvarado in a more difficult league comes to mind), people question it. Just like the Roldan, Trapp, Lovitz callups. It's a head scratcher at best. But getting lost over who is called in, rather than how all these guys are used is a red herring. The real problem is lack of a defined style of play and being soft on the soccer field. That's not an mLS problem, it's a Berhalter problem.
That's a fine example. Miazga instead of Zimmerman. That's fine. Alvarado too. I would support both of those.

But making a fuss over EPB or CCV instead of Zimmerman, or any other CB in the roster for that matter, isn't worth getting up in arms about. That's my point. Its legitimately 6 in one hand vs half a dozen in the other. It's not a crime and it's not "status quo" for Zimmerman to be called in, especially when other guys haven't done enough yet to demonstrate they're better than their peers in the pool.

If theres someone who has a good argument to be in there, then that's noteworthy and presents a solid case. Otherwise, complaining that Zimmerman got called in instead of CCV or EPB pointless because there is no backing. Argue for Miazga, who had been a better performer in the same league as CCV.

A lost of this isn't a Berhalter problem. Its ourage from fans who want to Monday morning quarterback thinking they know more about the players than the coach. Complain about Roldan, Lovitz, Trapp, and Baird. Guys who make sense to get rid of so we can look at others. Not Zimmerman. His inclusion isn't worth getting uptight over, its splitting hairs at best.

Lilshmike
Post #335
Monday November 11, 2019 3:24pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from Samtom23

I think the problem is that there are only 26 spots so each spot matters. But Berhalter gives spots away to players that don't merit. I think we all agree Holmes has shown more than Roldan.

And the lack of experimentation with different players is confounding.
Final WC rosters are 23 man, not 26.

Holmes has a case, yes. I agree, I would like to see Homes over Roldan. Or Green, he has a strong case too. However, people aren't finding cases for player 1 to replace player 2 on the roster. They're spitting out a bunch of names of guys who play in Europe whom they haven't watched play a full 90 (some have, but it was years ago), and bitching and moaning about their exclusion without any backing or evidence to back up why that player is even worthy other than they play in Europe or the default "we've never seen them and we've seen the other players so we should give them a try". Not only that, but most times too people aren't even naming who from the roster would get the boot. Either that, or they say players X, Y, and Z shouldn't have been called in and we should be looking at players A, B, and C... completely neglecting to realize that those players don't play the same position. That's ignorant.

For example, if someone is going to say that Lovitz, a LB, shouldn't have been called in, then they need to produce the name of a LB who will take his spot instead. Robinson has a strong case, but with Dest involved this camp and U23s happening concurrently, Robinson is in the U23s and that makes sense. So outside of Robinson, who is it going to be? Nobody has answered that one yet. Look back if you'd like... not a single person has addressed who should get called in this camp over Lovitz other than Robinson, who is not available. If people truly want to see other people, who is next in line? Again, nobody has an answer that they've shared... at least one that can be identified as currently playing in Europe.

Why dont we just start a player lottery, and either all or a potion of the callups are determined by a completely random lottery system. Surely that would please the fans...

bjelks
Post #336
Monday November 11, 2019 4:22pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,767
I think some of us over rate mls and mls players out of emotional attachment.

When mls players or players from anywhere prove that they are not cut to make an impact at this level, they should be left off and someone else should be given a chance.

When you have American mls vets routinely outplayed by semi pros and 2nd-3rd division Canadian and Trini players, we should strongly consider adjusting our perspective on mls.

With that being said, the lb depth outside of Antonee should be Dest, Fabian when healthy, Chandler, Richards. No need for Lovitz.

Yedlin and Cannon can play RB.

Zman has not impressed and he's in his late 20s.
EPB is playing regularly, younger, more athletic, and more skilled.
He deserves a shot
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #337
Monday November 11, 2019 5:15pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from bjelks

I think some of us over rate mls and mls players out of emotional attachment.

When mls players or players from anywhere prove that they are not cut to make an impact at this level, they should be left off and someone else should be given a chance.

When you have American mls vets routinely outplayed by semi pros and 2nd-3rd division Canadian and Trini players, we should strongly consider adjusting our perspective on mls.

With that being said, the lb depth outside of Antonee should be Dest, Fabian when healthy, Chandler, Richards. No need for Lovitz.

Yedlin and Cannon can play RB.

Zman has not impressed and he's in his late 20s.
EPB is playing regularly, younger, more athletic, and more skilled.
He deserves a shot
Over the last season, Fabian has fallen down the pecking order at his club. Not only that, but hes isn't exactly a LB, hes a makeshift LB. I wouldn't be opposed to it though if he is playing consistently at his club. That being said...

Chandler is a RB
Richards is a CB

You're providing a prime example of exactly what I'm saying, that people throw out names of players who don't play the same position. Thank you for that.

bjelks
Post #338
Monday November 11, 2019 6:41pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,767
Chandler has played everywhere on the backline in his career.
Richards has also played everywhere on the backline.
Lovitz on his best day will never be close to either of them even at his preferred position.

You're making excuses to not play better players.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #339
Monday November 11, 2019 6:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,767
Ream has played Lb for Gregg and he's not a pure lb
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #340
Monday November 11, 2019 8:59pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
It's long been a thing about the MLS guys taking up roster spots. But again, if these guys were used as they were at their clubs it wouldn't be such a glaring problem. Hardly any of our players do this passive crap at their clubs, they are used differently. Worrying about what they do with other teams and other players is counter productive. We can all see that they aren't starring for the USA right now for a reason and many of us have seen this all along. That's not Monday morning quarterbacking it's the previous Tuesday before the game when there is still time to make adjustments.
Here we are before the game and just like last time before the game I asked - herdman has watched the tape from many of our games and opponents strategy to overwhelm our soft midfield and our telegraphed methodical buildup. He packed the midfield and swarmed us.... Will we do this same thing again and expect a different result?

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #341
Monday November 11, 2019 10:05pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,355
Pulisic ruled out with a hip injury

Still think they should get a result vs Canada but hey who knows with Berhalter

bjelks
Post #342
Monday November 11, 2019 10:15pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,767
Original post from hamsamwich

It's long been a thing about the MLS guys taking up roster spots. But again, if these guys were used as they were at their clubs it wouldn't be such a glaring problem. Hardly any of our players do this passive crap at their clubs, they are used differently. Worrying about what they do with other teams and other players is counter productive. We can all see that they aren't starring for the USA right now for a reason and many of us have seen this all along. That's not Monday morning quarterbacking it's the previous Tuesday before the game when there is still time to make adjustments.
Here we are before the game and just like last time before the game I asked - herdman has watched the tape from many of our games and opponents strategy to overwhelm our soft midfield and our telegraphed methodical buildup. He packed the midfield and swarmed us.... Will we do this same thing again and expect a different result?


But if These guys were better players, their inability to be competent intl players wouldn't be such a glaring problem?
Now that CP is out, I'm confident Canada will get a result and hopefully Gregg will be out
goalsense
stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #343
Monday November 11, 2019 11:01pm

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 344
Original post from bjelks

But if These guys were better players, their inability to be competent intl players wouldn't be such a glaring problem?
Now that CP is out, I'm confident Canada will get a result and hopefully Gregg will be out


I think we win 2-0. Canada was so hyped for this game-we took it as another game. Pride will set in for the players and if GB doesn't change his system I think the players go rouge and win the game easily. If not GB needs to go.
Stoked
cudevil
Post #344
Monday November 11, 2019 11:20pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,105
Original post from stoked3

I think we win 2-0. Canada was so hyped for this game-we took it as another game. Pride will set in for the players and if GB doesn't change his system I think the players go rouge and win the game easily. If not GB needs to go.


2 goals with virtually no creativity in the midfield and missing our best, most in-form player? That seems ambitious.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #345
Monday November 11, 2019 11:21pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,062
Original post from stoked3

I think we win 2-0. Canada was so hyped for this game-we took it as another game. Pride will set in for the players and if GB doesn't change his system I think the players go rouge and win the game easily. If not GB needs to go.


We will win if our guys play with 100% effort. No more jogging around the pitch, no more acting like we are going win because we showed up. Full commitment, full passion, full effort. If I don't see this as a coach, that player does not get invited back next camp and I tell him why.

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