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db707
Post #286
Saturday November 9, 2019 3:44am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,008
Original post from Lilshmike

No one on here is watching 75% of these games in Europe. They watch highlights or read something on twitter about some player doing something... or watch a player do something for a youth team and expect their play against 17 and 18 year olds to magically translate over to grown men on the international stage.

If they aren't doing it at club, at a level as good or better than MLS, then there is no reason or evidence to suggest they can do it for the senior national team.


75% is being generous.

bjelks
Post #287
Saturday November 9, 2019 6:06am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,347
Again, I think you guys think too highly of mls players which are the reason we didn't qualify last cycle and have been abysmal all yr.

And have a flawed belief that just because you've seen these mls players they're better than the ones abroad you haven't seen.

These mls players have been failures for the past 3 yrs and they're only getting worse.

These mls players lost to part time players in Couva and half a team of 3rd division players in Toronto.

So pardon me if I don't take you seriously, when you say a young Danish player can't be better than a 30 yr old avg mls player.
goalsense
stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #288
Saturday November 9, 2019 7:43am

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 324
Original post from Lilshmike

What about taking a look at Ebobisse? Toye? I mentioned Christian Ramirez, and hes still at an age where he could be in the fold. Why not complain about him getting overlooked when he has produced better numbers in a better league than Sabbi? All of those guys have.

Ok, you complain about Trapp. How many times has he played in the last 10 US games? How many in the last 7? He didn't even dress for the most recent games. Hes pretty clearly getting phased out. In the roster, yes. Playing, no. Facts and stats don't lie on that one. Hes getting called in... but not playing because better guys are emerging ahead of him. And remember, Adams is still hurt. You are witnessing what you wanted to see (Trapp get pushed out and not play) but you're still complaining about it.

You're complaining about Lovitz, and while I agree... this is the #2 LB option we are talking about right now with Dest. Not a starter... a bench warmer. Robinson not getting a nod is noteworthy because he has a claim, but if it was between having him play in the U23s or sit the bench behind Dest in this most recent camp... I would absolutely send him to the U23s where he would play and build rapport on a team that he will likely be with if we qualify for the Olympics. So instead of arguing for Robinson, argue for someone who is not in the U23 age group who should get a look over Lovitz. That makes sense, but thats not what you're doing.

I'm not saying spots 12-18 don't matter. What I'm saying is that realistically spots 1-16 are already accounted for. The remaining spots that are up for grabs, people are making arguments for players they know nothing about or have never seen play, simply because they play in Europe. I will use Sabbi as an example... when was the last time you watched a full Hobro game? Are you a fan of Scandanavian football? I highly doubt it, so you're an example of what I'm referring to when I say people are getting uptight over random guys they've never seen play, having a blind belief that they are somehow better than MLS counterparts simply because they play in Europe.

Talking about EPB and CCV... Ream plays in Championship (the same league as CCV and arguably a better league than Belgium), has played in the Premier League, and is a consistent go to starter for his club. He is most certainly in front of CCV and EPB in the pecking order based on that criteria. Miazga too. And although Ream is on the older side, he is on the fringe where he could potentially be in the fold for the WC, so from that perspective it makes no sense to cast him aside yet. Long, Brooks, Ream, Miazga are all in front of those guys at the moment... so in reality, spots 3 and 4 aren't exactly up for grabs... spots 5 and 6 are. Add in Zimmerman, Miles Robinson, Alvarado, Ike Opara, etc, and you start wandering into the territory of arguing for CCV and EPB simply on the basis that they play in Europe and nothing else. Opara... great CB, disappointed why he hasn't gotten more attention. Zimmerman had European interest, but opted to stay in MLS for money (can't blame him), is at an age where he will be around for 1 to 2 cycles, and its a serviceable option. Alvarado too. So its not like excluding CCV and EPB is some sort of crime or even controversial. Should they get looks here and there, yes, but their exclusion is not noteworthy right now.


The problem with your argument that the players we mention wouldn't start is that you are not accounting for experience at this level, you are not accounting for injuries, when a player goes down someone has to fill his spot. In a previous posts you asked why would you throw unproven guys into the fire. Why to see if they have a chance at this level. Where I agree with your statements is we have no idea if the euro guys can cut it at this level. Why, b.c they have not been given a chance. But we do know the guys everyone mentions suck at this level.

And no you can not simply go on Stats. If that is the case why haven't you called for Wondo over zardes? You can't not rely soley on stats, you have to use your eyes to see players.

I have said it many times a problem I have with GB and past Nats coaches is they simply pick the same guys, your mad bc we mention Euro guys-but I have called for dif mls guys. I would gladly take a look at Ebobisse over Bardes, i also would gladly take another look at dwyer or busio. over Bardes. So no its not just Euro guys I want to see its different MLS guys--

I guess stated differently what do your stats tell you about: Bradley, Trapp, Lovitz, Baird, that merits them getting looks? What have your eyes told you about their performances on the Int level? If you are pleased with the results by all means call them up, if you want better we need to look for better options. So you can use stats but that doesn't tell the whole story.

Lima was not a constant starter nor was j.Lewis, but frankly Lima played well in the majority of the games played- in my opinion he has played better than cannon, JLewis while not a savior looked dangerous as a sub, looked more competent that Zardes but the stats don't show that at the club level but on the INT level he surely looked better than Bardes. We played Roldon over SL. So don't come on this board and decry anyone who doesn't think your way is the best--people on here dont rate Sebastien L, but frankly he has played well for us, he looks 1000x better than roldon.

does EPB bring something diff than zimmerman ? IMO yes, is Robinson better than Long maybe-but again, it takes so long for any new player to be included and then play its ridiculous. Shoot Dest is playing in huge games but is given 60 mins please what a joke get lovitz out of here. At least if your calling in the same guys try them in diff spots.

We are playing Cuba guys -I am telling you all of us on this board would be Cuba. Canada I expect we win and everyone will think we are on the right path. I would be more than happy to throw out new guys and see how they can hang in a game like this. Bc if and when an injury happens come WCQ or WC time and we send in a backup wouldn't it be nice if they had some exp instead of saying well we played lovitz b.c stats told us he was good-

So guys whom should get called in: Green, Holmes, Fabian Johnson, Chandler, M Robinson (when healed), Alvarado, Ebiossi, J.Ferreira, Nova, Gooch (better than baird) Hyndman, Parks, Williams (who cares where he plays no I have not seen him play but when I did he proved he could easily hang on the INT level and there is zero chance trap is better than him)

do we have better players yes..
Stoked
Samtom23
Post #289
Saturday November 9, 2019 7:50am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 108
The MLS season ended for some like a month ago. I think Zardes and Trapp haven't played in about a month. You can check the other MLS guys find out when they actually played a competitive game.

Looking at forwards, we are weak. What if Sargent never develops? Do you want to pin all your future hopes on Zardes? Because Jozy is chronically injured.

Why not invite Sabbi to camp, let Haji Wright go play with the U-23s? Haji is in the same league Jozy got his career going. What about that kid in Argentina? Milijetic? No clue on spelling. Has GB even seen him? For the record, never seen him. Again you can take one of the forwards from the U-23, invite that kid to the U-23s. And build loyalty to USMNT. Sergino Dest is a testament to creating loyalty. About Boyd, he has a terrible first touch. Does that fit into a possession based system? And he is riding the bench. Only plays when starters are being rested.

And midfielders, Holmes should be here period. And he is in club form. Why not have Julian Green in again? His season is actually on-going. You could have Lledzma, who is about to break into first team for PSV. Do you think Trapp or Yueill has that capacity? I am praying for a 50/50 challenge between Roldan and Bradley, then maybe we get a player that has ability.

Just think of Reggie Cannon. Not invited to camp and an injury gave him an opportunity which he seized. Arguably Berhalter's best call-up. And Richards training with the first team of Bayern Munich. Any other CB's have that distinction as well? And why have Ream over Miazga? I don't see any major improvement there. And I remember Miazga's drive/grit against Mexico. I also stated Hines-Ike. Why not invite him to camp, maybe play him against Cuba.

You think supposing we qualify for 2022, do you want a 34 year old trying to cover a 24 year old Rashford, a 22 year old Mpabbe, a 21 year old Joao Felix. Or would've liked to see 26 year old Miazga or 21 year old Richards. Going against Alphonso Davies and co, would've given them a lot of experience. GB is frustrating

And Robinson, he was the Championship team of the month. How unlikely Lovitz can reach that. And he is LB, no need to mess with Dest's position.

blaise213
Post #290
Saturday November 9, 2019 8:51am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,987
Holmes biggest snub !!!

Samtom23
Post #291
Saturday November 9, 2019 12:45pm

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 108
The future of the USMNT is the biggest snub.

Lilshmike
Post #292
Saturday November 9, 2019 2:24pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from stoked3

The problem with your argument that the players we mention wouldn't start is that you are not accounting for experience at this level, you are not accounting for injuries, when a player goes down someone has to fill his spot. In a previous posts you asked why would you throw unproven guys into the fire. Why to see if they have a chance at this level. Where I agree with your statements is we have no idea if the euro guys can cut it at this level. Why, b.c they have not been given a chance. But we do know the guys everyone mentions suck at this level.

And no you can not simply go on Stats. If that is the case why haven't you called for Wondo over zardes? You can't not rely soley on stats, you have to use your eyes to see players.

I have said it many times a problem I have with GB and past Nats coaches is they simply pick the same guys, your mad bc we mention Euro guys-but I have called for dif mls guys. I would gladly take a look at Ebobisse over Bardes, i also would gladly take another look at dwyer or busio. over Bardes. So no its not just Euro guys I want to see its different MLS guys-

I guess stated differently what do your stats tell you about: Bradley, Trapp, Lovitz, Baird, that merits them getting looks? What have your eyes told you about their performances on the Int level? If you are pleased with the results by all means call them up, if you want better we need to look for better options. So you can use stats but that doesn't tell the whole story.

Lima was not a constant starter nor was j.Lewis, but frankly Lima played well in the majority of the games played- in my opinion he has played better than cannon, JLewis while not a savior looked dangerous as a sub, looked more competent that Zardes but the stats don't show that at the club level but on the INT level he surely looked better than Bardes. We played Roldon over SL. So don't come on this board and decry anyone who doesn't think your way is the best-people on here dont rate Sebastien L, but frankly he has played well for us, he looks 1000x better than roldon.

does EPB bring something diff than zimmerman ? IMO yes, is Robinson better than Long maybe-but again, it takes so long for any new player to be included and then play its ridiculous. Shoot Dest is playing in huge games but is given 60 mins please what a joke get lovitz out of here. At least if your calling in the same guys try them in diff spots.

We are playing Cuba guys -I am telling you all of us on this board would be Cuba. Canada I expect we win and everyone will think we are on the right path. I would be more than happy to throw out new guys and see how they can hang in a game like this. Bc if and when an injury happens come WCQ or WC time and we send in a backup wouldn't it be nice if they had some exp instead of saying well we played lovitz b.c stats told us he was good-

So guys whom should get called in: Green, Holmes, Fabian Johnson, Chandler, M Robinson (when healed), Alvarado, Ebiossi, J.Ferreira, Nova, Gooch (better than baird) Hyndman, Parks, Williams (who cares where he plays no I have not seen him play but when I did he proved he could easily hang on the INT level and there is zero chance trap is better than him)

do we have better players yes..
To be frank, you're missing the point.

I'm not calling for Zardes. I don't rate him, I've stated that. I'm only giving a reason as for why he has pushed himself into the conversation, whether we like it or not, and others have not. And candidly, Sabbi has done nothing to warrant a call to the senior team yet, other than check off the "plays in Europe" box. People calling for him have never seen him play, yet are getting uptight over his exclusion.

Point blank, that's ignorant.

You bring up Lovitz, Trapp, Bradley, and Baird. How many times do we have to go through this. I'm not defending them, I don't like them, and (with the exception of Bradley as a non-starting roster player) I've stated multiple times, even in this thread, that those guys need to go. So why are you bringing them up like I'm calling on them to be in the team? I'm not.

Again, reading comprehension is a problem.

You mentioned a bunch of names but have zero backing for them. Do you watch the Belgian league with EPB? No. Hes another "checks the Europe box" name. Zimmerman has international experience, is a solid enough player, good on set pieces, serviceable backup option. There is no reason to complain about his inclusion other than "he plays in MLS". Novakovich? Seriously? Hes not even a consistent starter in the 2nd division in Italy and he isn't scoring there. That's just not good enough. William's hasn't played in a year and now plays in the Cypriot league. That's not good enough. Fabian Johnson, as much as I love him, has 3 appearances to his name this season and he hasn't played particularly well in any of them. Hes not in form, not playing, and therefore it's not good enough right now.

My point if that none of this is really controversial. Everyone in there has earned the right to be in there (for the most part), and there are 3 or 4 spots up for grabs... and this is in a roster where we still have guys injured and not called in. Those 3 to 4, in my opinion of the current roster, are Roldan, Lovitz, Trapp, and Baird. I would say Zardes too... but other guys in the pool need to step up and perform for their clubs to push him out, because whether we like it or not, he has done enough to be included as a bench option.

People are complaining about guys getting excluded that aren't worthy of debate at this time. And more times then not, yourself included, people toss out names of random people in Europe they know nothing about or don't even watch and claim they should be called in for no reason other than they play in Europe and not MLS.

The reality is what I stated... spots 1-16 on the roster are realistically occupied, especially considering when Weah, Jozy and Adam's get back. Spots 21-23 are for goalies. Spots 17-20 are what people are truly complaining about, and when they bring up names, there is generally no basis for their inclusion other than the simple argument that the guy plays in Europe.

Holmes has an argument. Robinson has an argument. Green could have an argument. That has all been established. You think there are other guys who should get a look? Ok, who are they, what's the objective basis for them to get a look over another guy, and who are they taking out of the current team? Guaranteed, there are about 4 guys in the current roster, who I named, whom one could find compelling objectice arguments to be excluded in favor of someone else... as I have said.

cudevil
Post #293
Saturday November 9, 2019 2:45pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 984
Just to clear something up, Lovitz started the last 2 matches, and that was with Yedlin, Cannon, and Lima on the roster. Dest should/better slide into that spot, but there is zero evidence he's going anywhere.

You want to bring in young MLS players? Fine. I don't care. I never watch MLS at all, so I can't comment.

hamsamwich
Post #294
Saturday November 9, 2019 3:08pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,212
This still goes back to the hiring process and the fact nobody trusts GGG or Earnie.

Yes Holmes and Robinson are snubs, and I wish he'd called Ledezma, but I do understand why they want to make the Olympic squad the best it can be (even though it's not a big soccer tournament, it's a big deal here in the USA, and help boost the popularity of the men's game which has fallen on apathetic and hard times. Nobody goes, nobody cares, and the games are boring and soft.

It's not about who was selected, it's how they are constantly misused by the coach. I have zero confidence he can get these guys to play good soccer. I can remember both tuca Ferretti and the big fat idiot both coming off the bench with a new system for Mexico and getting their players immediately behind them playing good football. Obviously GGG doesn't communicate well and can't get his players to do what he wants. There's a lot of evidence it won't change. There's a chance it's all on the players and GGG is doing an amazing job but our players suck so bad they can't get the system and are too limited to ever do so.

More likely is that we are seeing a limited manager with limited skills prove he is getting limited results. A real coaching search with real candidates would have helped to identify which is the bigger problem, hierarchy, or the players.... but since we didn't want any coach like that, the mystery continues. GGG needs to go and the whole raft of corrupt jerks above him out as well. Or everything will continue the same. Look at the upcoming attendance lol.

Lilshmike
Post #295
Saturday November 9, 2019 3:35pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from cudevil

Just to clear something up, Lovitz started the last 2 matches, and that was with Yedlin, Cannon, and Lima on the roster. Dest should/better slide into that spot, but there is zero evidence he's going anywhere.

You want to bring in young MLS players? Fine. I don't care. I never watch MLS at all, so I can't comment.
Again, you're missing the point.

I'm not calling on bringing in young MLS players. I'm saying that guys being called in need to have some sort of convincing argument. With the names you brought up, Sabbi in particular, the only arguments are "they play in Europe and not MLS".

MLS should be the bare minimum we accept, and to be clear, a lot of the guys we have playing in Europe are below the level of MLS. Sabbi included.

The point is, if you're going to complain about a player like Sabbi (who has done nothing to earn a senior call yet) and say nothing about any counterpart in MLS who has objectively performed better in a better league, then your only argument is simply... hey, Europe!

You don't watch MLS, and you don't watch the Danish league. Yet, you call on a guy from a league you dont watch and say you can't comment on guys from MLS whome you don't watch. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy and obvious favoritism towards players in Europe simply on the basis of them being in Europe and nothing else.

bjelks
Post #296
Saturday November 9, 2019 4:27pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,347
According to kickgalore, Argentina and Denmark are in the same tier as MLS.
https://www.kickalgor.com/football-leagues/th...

Argentina ranked higher and Denmark ranked 2 spots lower.

Now the case for Sabbi is he's 21 playing at the same level as MLS and making an impact.
He's just as fast as Morris if not faster. Has a better long range shot and a better dribbler.
Just as good a passer.

The reasons to leave Baird out is he's never impressed in a US shirt, is an avg MLS player and older than Sabbi. I feel the same way about Morris and Arriola.

Reason for EPB, he's faster, stronger, more skilled, and a better passer than Zman and younger.
goalsense
cudevil
Post #297
Saturday November 9, 2019 5:13pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 984
Original post from Lilshmike

Again, you're missing the point.

I'm not calling on bringing in young MLS players. I'm saying that guys being called in need to have some sort of convincing argument. With the names you brought up, Sabbi in particular, the only arguments are "they play in Europe and not MLS".

MLS should be the bare minimum we accept, and to be clear, a lot of the guys we have playing in Europe are below the level of MLS. Sabbi included.

The point is, if you're going to complain about a player like Sabbi (who has done nothing to earn a senior call yet) and say nothing about any counterpart in MLS who has objectively performed better in a better league, then your only argument is simply... hey, Europe!

You don't watch MLS, and you don't watch the Danish league. Yet, you call on a guy from a league you dont watch and say you can't comment on guys from MLS whome you don't watch. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy and obvious favoritism towards players in Europe simply on the basis of them being in Europe and nothing else.


No, you're missing the point. You want to keep calling guys in that can't play. The only argument that matters is whether they can perform for the Nats. Continuing to call guys in that can't perform only leads to bad results for the senior team.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #298
Saturday November 9, 2019 7:10pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 867
Original post from bjelks

Again, I think you guys think too highly of mls players which are the reason we didn't qualify last cycle and have been abysmal all yr.

And have a flawed belief that just because you've seen these mls players they're better than the ones abroad you haven't seen.

These mls players have been failures for the past 3 yrs and they're only getting worse.

These mls players lost to part time players in Couva and half a team of 3rd division players in Toronto.

So pardon me if I don't take you seriously, when you say a young Danish player can't be better than a 30 yr old avg mls player.


So only the MLS is responsible for these losses, ROFL, same old song and dance. Despite the team being at least 1/2 guys that play in Europe it is only the MLS guys who lost these games. You would have done well in Hitlers Germany! You would have had a group to blame everything on.

bjelks
Post #299
Saturday November 9, 2019 7:59pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,347
Let's try a little experiment.

Let's try just one game with non mls players and see how they do?
Why are you so afraid of this lol?

We see how great Pulisic, Yedlin, Sargent, Mckennie, Brooks, Miazga, Steffen, look playing against and with top level players so we know they're capable.

But we've never seen Roldan, Trapp, Lovitz, Morris, Arriola, Long, Zman, Lima, Zardes play at a top level.
And to be frank Bradley hasn't played at a top level in 5 yrs.

Only someone who doesn't understand the game would make the argument that quality of your teammate doesn't affect your play. Literally all the evidence says otherwise.

Regarding Hitler, I would say it's more Hitleresque to intentionally limit duals, minorities, and young ppl to advance the agenda of old wealthy, powerful, white men or SUM.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #300
Saturday November 9, 2019 9:32pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from cudevil

No, you're missing the point. You want to keep calling guys in that can't play. The only argument that matters is whether they can perform for the Nats. Continuing to call guys in that can't perform only leads to bad results for the senior team.
Again, you've brought nothing to the table other than subjective crap. You need a better comeback than "you're calling on guys who cant play".

If they arent doing it at club, theres no reason to suggest they can do it at the international level. And if you're going to call in guys, or argue that player X is better and more deserving than player Y, there needs to be some objective basis for doing so. Scoring 5 goals in a crap league is not as impressive as 13 goals in a better league. Plain and simple.

You're arguing for guys you've not watched to get called into the national team simply because they're in Europe and nothing else. Quit hiding behind random analysis and just say it like it is. Sabbi is a perfect example of that. So is Cappis. 2 players you haven't watched, yet are arguing should get a senior call up to the national team over other players in the pool simply because they play in Europe.

Make a case for Green playing week in week out in a comparable league to MLS, contributing/scoring goals from a non-attacking position, in an area of need for the USMNT where he has a legitimate argument, instead of spewing Cappis because you've seen hes getting minutes in a European league yet you've never seen him play a full 90. Make a case for Ebobisse or Toye or Ramirez who are putting up better numbers in a better league than Sabbi in Denmark.

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