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Lilshmike
Post #271
Friday November 8, 2019 4:48pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from Samtom23

Considering the trouble the senior team is having. Why should they sit the bench?

We have seen GB call the same players and do the same tactics. Is he magically going to get a result? At what point, do you say, we have had enough losing meaningful games? It seems like we will lose and lose.

I hear your argument but there has to be a balance between U-23, U-20s and the senior team.

And we were largely embarrassed by Canada. But there is no shake-up of the roster? It seems like much the same again.

We not Holmes, Wright, Hines-Ike, Gooch.

Sargent paired with Holmes very well. Where is Holmes?
Holmes is the only person you mentioned here who has a case of playing possibly in the starting 11 of the senior team. Nobody in the U23s has a case, or is better, than any of the guys in the starting lineup right now for the senior team... and the one who has a true case from the U23s right now is Antonee Robinson.

But, if Antonee Robinson was called in, would he play in front of Dest at LB? No.

The players that are U23 age that have the ability to both play for and impact the senior team are currently in the senior team... McKennie, Pulisic, Dest, Yueill, Sargent.

We can shake up the roster... but truth be told, the starting lineup would still be very close, if not identical, to what we saw already. Maybe 1 or 2 changes. So getting caught up in a stink because some U23 guys were put in their appropriate age group, when they would have legitimately sat the bench had they been called to the senior team, isn't worth arguing or getting upset over.

And Wright has no business yet being in the senior team. Gooch is playing League One in England which isn't good enough. Hines-Ike may have a decent argument, but we still have better players in front of him at CB (one of our deepest positions) so that isn't much of a snub.

Lilshmike
Post #272
Friday November 8, 2019 5:00pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from cudevil

If the MNT wasn't a tire fire right now, I'd be all for focusing on the U23 team. But it's not, and not having guys that could legitimately be in consideration for the senior team in the senior camp-i.e. Sabbi, Cappis, Robinson, CCV, etc.-is dumb.

And sure, there are "positive outcomes" from qualifying for the Olympics, but they're basically a friendly to me. The entire focus needs to be on getting our ducks in a row for WC qualifying, because on this current trajectory, we're going to miss out on '22 also, which is infinitely worse than not qualifying for the Olympics. And I don't think the Olympics will matter a whit in terms of WC qualifying prep. If they did, why aren't Pulisic, McKennie, etc. playing with the U23's right now?
None of the players you mentioned would start right now. They just wouldn't.

The USMNT is a tire fire because, for one reason or another, they haven't been getting the results we would expect. As I have said before, I don't know if its the players or the coach... because we had pretty close to our best 11 out there against Canada and didn't get the job done.

That being said, who really leaves the starting lineup for any of the names you just stated? CCV isn't going to start in front of Brooks, Long, Ream, or Miazga. Sabbi isn't going to start in front of Sargent, and puts up worse numbers in a worse league than Zardes. Cappis only recently started to get first team minutes, in a league lower than MLS, and isn't going to stand a chance of playing in front of McKennie, Morales, I'll even say Yueill, or Adams when healthy.

Robinson is the only name that has a legitimate claim... but would he start in front of Dest? No.

When considering all of that, you (and others) are complaining about fringe bench options who wouldn't play with the senior team. Thats not worthy of debate.

And not only that, but you want to mix in guys to the senior team. I'm all for it. But do it during a friendly, instead of throwing together some random assortment of players who play in Europe, simply because they play in Europe, in a must win situation when they have never been exposed to the national team before. Thats really dumb, and would almost guarantee us a loss.

cudevil
Post #273
Friday November 8, 2019 5:34pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 984
Original post from Lilshmike

None of the players you mentioned would start right now. They just wouldn't.

The USMNT is a tire fire because, for one reason or another, they haven't been getting the results we would expect. As I have said before, I don't know if its the players or the coach... because we had pretty close to our best 11 out there against Canada and didn't get the job done.

That being said, who really leaves the starting lineup for any of the names you just stated? CCV isn't going to start in front of Brooks, Long, Ream, or Miazga. Sabbi isn't going to start in front of Sargent, and puts up worse numbers in a worse league than Zardes. Cappis only recently started to get first team minutes, in a league lower than MLS, and isn't going to stand a chance of playing in front of McKennie, Morales, I'll even say Yueill, or Adams when healthy.

Robinson is the only name that has a legitimate claim... but would he start in front of Dest? No.

When considering all of that, you (and others) are complaining about fringe bench options who wouldn't play with the senior team. Thats not worthy of debate.

And not only that, but you want to mix in guys to the senior team. I'm all for it. But do it during a friendly, instead of throwing together some random assortment of players who play in Europe, simply because they play in Europe, in a must win situation when they have never been exposed to the national team before. Thats really dumb, and would almost guarantee us a loss.


First, I could give a crap at this point if we perform poorly in the Nations League. It's a worthless tournament that offers the US nothing but downside. It should be used for developmental purposes at all times, but especially now. I'd 10x run out a bunch of young guys against Canada's A team and get beat, knowing that it's actually trying to build towards something, than I would seeing our supposedly best players get torn up.

Second, it's should be painfully obvious that GB isn't even going to take real risks in a friendly.

Third, CCV probably wouldn't start. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be with the first team. Same with Cappis or Sabbi.

And we know Zardes sucks. Full stop. The idea that we should just keep inviting him in and not even seeing what Sabbi (or Nova) can do if given the same opportunity is six types of silly.

Equally silly is that we just don't have anyone else to call in. There are lots of guys that we can and should try because our senior team sucks right now. There is literally no down side to calling in some younger guys that have limited professional experience.

In terms of recent results, while I do believe a ton lies at the feet of GB, guys like Zardes, Arriola, Lovitz, Roldan, Trapp, and Bradley-all of whom (save maybe Trapp) are either starting or getting consistent minutes off the bench-shouldn't be getting the minutes they are getting. Bring in new faces.

Bottom line is that you insist that the guys we are calling in are generally the best we have with absolutely zero basis for that conclusion. Unless or until we start seeing some of these guys in camp and competing for a spot with the senior team, you lack any support for your claim that we are fielding something approximating our best 11, backed by the best bench possible.

cudevil
Post #274
Friday November 8, 2019 5:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 984
Original post from Lilshmike

Sabbi has worse numbers and stats in a lower league than MLS.

Sorry, but as much as I dislike Zardes, Sabbi shouldn't get a look in front of him...


This thought process is guaranteed to continue achieving mediocre (at best) results.

Lilshmike
Post #275
Friday November 8, 2019 6:11pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from Know Nothing

Yes, in the current situation they should be with the U 23's. The olympics is yet another opportunity to garner international experience.

I will treat your question as open ended for any point in the year instead of the unique situation we have now. You have cleverly based your question on players in the starting 11. Let's expand this to players 12-18. If, instead, you ask the question who would you rather have to come on and try to impact the match as a substitute, I believe the results would be different.
Good, I like this scenario.

Lets say we have everyone healthy.

Starting with DF... there are no players excluded who would really make the cut in that 12-18 player list, with the exception of Antonee Robinson. Brooks, Long, Ream, Miazga, Zimmerman all are good enough, and any guys not called in would be fringe players on the outside looking in, and wouldn't be starting players or impact subs. No issues there.

Now for the midfield. Holmes has a good case. Outside of that though, Yueill has earned it and seems like he can do a good job. McKennie is a lock. Adams, when healthy, you would assume would be a lock. Morales has staked a claim to be in there. That really only leaves a couple of options left. Want to get rid of Roldan? I agree, but I think Holmes would take that spot. Want Bradley and Trapp out? Well thats up to Yueill, Morales and a healthy Adams. With who we have right now, are there really any guys excluded or called into the U23s who would be in that 12-18 player list? I highly doubt it. And would it make sense to throw them in a must win match in their first call up, or integrate therm in through friendlies? I say friendlies. So... no issues with midfield.

Now for forwards/wings. I would be willing to bet our group would be pretty close to Pulisic, Arriola, Morris, Sargent, Jozy, Weah, Boyd, and (unfortunately) Zardes. Nobody is pushing Pulisic out. Morris has done enough right now to be involved, as has Arriola. Especially if both of those guys are used as subs. You would assume Jozy starts when healthy, with Sargent the 2nd option. If not, Sargent Starts with Jozy the second option. And outside of both of those guys... well, nobody has put up the same numbers as Zardes in any league as good as MLS or better. Thats not really a point that can be debated, and as much as I dislike Zardes, nobody has made a case to be in front of him from their performances on the field (ie. scoring goals). So... there really isn't anyone excluded who would fit that 12-18 list. And if we extend out to wings... are we going to play some kid on a 2nd division or youth team in Europe over Tyler Boyd? No. So no issues there.

People get caught in the emotion without analyzing the situation for what it is. When you break down the pool, the players available, and who gets called in... this is pretty much what we've got (as I have been saying for too long).

The reality is that there are maybe about 3 to 4 spots that are potentially up for grabs once everyone is healthy and available. And, in my own opinion, none of the players in the current U23 group (with the exception of Antonee Robinson) have any argument to be considered as a part of those 3 to 4 spots.

To be blunt, people continue to get butt hurt because they want people to get called in whom they know play in Europe, but have never actually seen play, having blind expectations for them to be better than the players called in. The reality is that this is pretty close to the best we've got right now, especially considering how unlucky we've been in the injury department.

Could there be changes? Certainly, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring in a couple faces to take a look at them. But at the end of the day... none of this is controversial.

Lilshmike
Post #276
Friday November 8, 2019 6:28pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from cudevil

First, I could give a crap at this point if we perform poorly in the Nations League. It's a worthless tournament that offers the US nothing but downside. It should be used for developmental purposes at all times, but especially now. I'd 10x run out a bunch of young guys against Canada's A team and get beat, knowing that it's actually trying to build towards something, than I would seeing our supposedly best players get torn up.

Second, it's should be painfully obvious that GB isn't even going to take real risks in a friendly.

Third, CCV probably wouldn't start. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be with the first team. Same with Cappis or Sabbi.

And we know Zardes sucks. Full stop. The idea that we should just keep inviting him in and not even seeing what Sabbi (or Nova) can do if given the same opportunity is six types of silly.

Equally silly is that we just don't have anyone else to call in. There are lots of guys that we can and should try because our senior team sucks right now. There is literally no down side to calling in some younger guys that have limited professional experience.

In terms of recent results, while I do believe a ton lies at the feet of GB, guys like Zardes, Arriola, Lovitz, Roldan, Trapp, and Bradley-all of whom (save maybe Trapp) are either starting or getting consistent minutes off the bench-shouldn't be getting the minutes they are getting. Bring in new faces.

Bottom line is that you insist that the guys we are calling in are generally the best we have with absolutely zero basis for that conclusion. Unless or until we start seeing some of these guys in camp and competing for a spot with the senior team, you lack any support for your claim that we are fielding something approximating our best 11, backed by the best bench possible.
I'm pushing back hard on your last statements. Give me some of the drugs you're smoking, because I would love to see what thats about.

My basis is, and always has been, that the players must be playing regularly for their club teams in a league at least as good as MLS to be in consideration for the senior national team. There is room for an exception here and there.

However, if they are playing on a youth team... its not good enough. Playing in League One in England... not good enough. Playing in the second division in Holland... not good enough. Not a consistent starter on a team in Sweden... not good enough. Inconsistent starter on a Scandinavian team and having worse stats in a lower league than counterparts in MLS... not good enough. On the books of a big name club, but failing to get any game time... not good enough.

Playing week in and week out in Norway or Denmark and considered one of the better players in the league... good enough. Starter on a Championship team or 2 Bundesliga team and consistently produces for their position... good enough. On the books of a big name club, sent on loan to a lower division team, but the head coach of the parent club publicly identifies that the player is good enough and its unlucky circumstances that got him sent on loan but is in the plans moving forward... possibly worth taking a look.

Define for me your basis. Something thats fairly subjective and not "we've seen them and they sucked".

Even with Zardes, I'm giving irrefutable evidence that his stats lend to his argument for inclusion. As noted, I do not like him and want someone else instead, but from an objective viewpoint... he is unfortunately ahead of his peers. Thats just fact. Sabbi, who hasn't been a consistent starter for his team and scores fewer goals in a worse league than MLS, is objectively behind Zardes. This isn't me praising Zardes... this is me pointing out that, whether we like it or not, he has pushed himself into the conversation while others have not.

db707
Post #277
Friday November 8, 2019 6:32pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1,008
Original post from Lilshmike
To be blunt, people continue to get butt hurt because they want people to get called in whom they know play in Europe, but have never actually seen play, having blind expectations for them to be better than the players called in. The reality is that this is pretty close to the best we've got right now, especially considering how unlucky we've been in the injury department.


Or haven't seen play in a long time like Danny Williams (I guarantee no one on here is watching Cypriot First Division matches).

Lilshmike
Post #278
Friday November 8, 2019 6:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from db707

Or haven't seen play in a long time like Danny Williams (I guarantee no one on here is watching Cypriot First Division matches).
No one on here is watching 75% of these games in Europe. They watch highlights or read something on twitter about some player doing something... or watch a player do something for a youth team and expect their play against 17 and 18 year olds to magically translate over to grown men on the international stage.

If they aren't doing it at club, at a level as good or better than MLS, then there is no reason or evidence to suggest they can do it for the senior national team.

cudevil
Post #279
Friday November 8, 2019 7:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 984
I just can't anymore. We have guys that we KNOW, with absolute certainty, can't play at the international level, but you're going to continue calling them in because they are playing for their club? It's dumb. The ultimate measuring stick is performance for the Nats. A bunch of these dudes aren't performing, so we need to look at other options.

Fact is, there are faaaaaar too many reasons why someone might not be playing for their club or putting up numbers for that to be the sole barometer for calling someone in-particularly when we suck as a team so badly. Hell, let's look at Dest-dude was a locked in starter for Ajax. He announces that he's committing to the US and coincidentally gets put on the bench immediately thereafter. So let's not call him in right despite the fact that there is a whiff that he's just being punished for his decision to play for the US?

Or look at Sabbi. He plays on a bad team in Denmark-a team that struggles to score goals (3rd fewest in the league per ESPN). Near as I can tell, he's scored a third of IK Hobro's goals, and is tied for the team lead (he and another have 5 goals each). So any team playing Hobro basically has to focus on 2 guys. You don't believe that context matters?

Matthijs de Ligt had had something like 6 or 7 appearances for Ajax, but only 2 starts, before the Dutch started him, on his debut, in a Euro qualifier. I'm guessing some here and the USAF wouldn't have believed that was sufficient to get a call up for the MNT.

navi8132
New York
Post #280
Friday November 8, 2019 7:55pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,120
I sat out the last two U-17 matches and I plan to sit out this Canada game. I suggest you all do the same. TV viewership and ticket sales is what keeps executive Jay Berhalter in power.

Lilshmike
Post #281
Friday November 8, 2019 9:17pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from cudevil

I just can't anymore. We have guys that we KNOW, with absolute certainty, can't play at the international level, but you're going to continue calling them in because they are playing for their club? It's dumb. The ultimate measuring stick is performance for the Nats. A bunch of these dudes aren't performing, so we need to look at other options.

Fact is, there are faaaaaar too many reasons why someone might not be playing for their club or putting up numbers for that to be the sole barometer for calling someone in-particularly when we suck as a team so badly. Hell, let's look at Dest-dude was a locked in starter for Ajax. He announces that he's committing to the US and coincidentally gets put on the bench immediately thereafter. So let's not call him in right despite the fact that there is a whiff that he's just being punished for his decision to play for the US?

Or look at Sabbi. He plays on a bad team in Denmark-a team that struggles to score goals (3rd fewest in the league per ESPN). Near as I can tell, he's scored a third of IK Hobro's goals, and is tied for the team lead (he and another have 5 goals each). So any team playing Hobro basically has to focus on 2 guys. You don't believe that context matters?

Matthijs de Ligt had had something like 6 or 7 appearances for Ajax, but only 2 starts, before the Dutch started him, on his debut, in a Euro qualifier. I'm guessing some here and the USAF wouldn't have believed that was sufficient to get a call up for the MNT.
Again... you haven't brought anything to the table outside of personal opinion. With respect to Zardes in particular, again, I don't like him... but he has pushed himseld into the conversation whether we like it or not. I'm pointing out the truth - independent of my feelings on the guy.

Pulisic, McKennie, Sargent, Yedlin, Morris, etc aren't performing... are we going to bench them in favor of inferior players? Doubt it, and don't BS and play some devils advocate here. Roldan and Lovitz are realistically the guys we are likely taking out with better options. Lovitz is gone with Dest in the fold, and Roldan may still be in there. Target someone who would take a position thats up for grabs instead of making an emotional argument... because right now, its unconvincing.

Dest not playing the last few games is irrelevant. He has done enough for the first team at his club to demonstrate and warrant inclusion with the national team. Not only that, but Ajax is a storied European team and the best team in the Dutch league. Thats a poor example comparing anything with De Ligt.

Sabbi has 5 goals for Hobro, and you say thats good enough to get called in. Why not call in Dom Dwyer then? Wheres your outrage for him? He had 7 goals for a crappy Orlando team in a better league than Denmark. How about Christian Ramirez, with 9 goals? Why aren't you complaining about him?

Zardes had 13 for a crappy Columbus... thats still better than Sabbi. How about CJ Sapong? He too had 13.

The fact is, the outrage is from people who want to see these European guys because of some thought that they are better than MLS options simply because they are in Europe. They haven't seen these guys play. I'm willing to bet money that you don't watch the Danish league and follow Hobro outside of a few highlights here and there.

Objective speaking, these guys haven't done enough yet to create a compelling argument for inclusion in the national team. Point blank, the group we have (with the exception of maybe like 3 to 4 spots) is pretty much the best we've got. And this doesn't include a few guys who you would assume are 23 man roster locks (Weah, Jozy, Adams) when healthy.

As stated, there really isn't anyone excluded that is controversial, except maybe Holmes or Robinson.

Make an argument for Holmes, Robinson, or maybe Green. Those make sense and have some backing to them. Not Sabbi.

bjelks
Post #282
Friday November 8, 2019 10:05pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,347
How about we've seen Dwyer, Ramirez, and Zardes and we can all agree that they aren't impressive and they've maxed out their ability?

Pulisic, Sargent, Yedlin, Mckennie are all proven at the highest level.
Morris isn't and he's older than all except Yedlin. Morris shouldn't be mentioned with them. His career is going nowhere.

Again it's illogical to tell us that a young player like Sabbi making an impact hasn't merited a call when we have guys ahead of him that have either been terrible for country or avg for club when they are much older.
Also, it's illogical to say someone who we haven't seen in a natl team jersey can't be better than what we have when again we haven't seen them in a natl team jersey.
goalsense
cudevil
Post #283
Friday November 8, 2019 10:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 984
Stop saying that this is the best group we've got when Berhalter hasn't even tried guys that are playing well for their clubs. There is zero basis for that statement.

Dwyer and Sapong are 29 and 30, respectively. They have no future with the senior set up. Sabbi might. And yes, he's played well enough to merit a look over guys that we know can't play for the Nats. Hell, I'm not even saying Sabbi is all that great. I just know Zardes doesn't have the quality to play at the international level. That's indisputable. Continuing to bring Zardes in when he continues to fail for the senior team certainly isn't creating a meritocracy.

Oh, as far as Lovitz "being gone" with Dest in the fold. I was assured that Trapp was going to get phased out as the Berhalter regime progressed. That doesn't appear to be happening. So why, exactly, should we believe that Lovitz is going to be outside looking in?

Christ, you act as if spots 12-18 don't matter. Our best CB pairing is probably Long and Brooks (it's becoming very clear that GB, for whatever reason doesn't rate Miazga). Brooks is very unreliable. Ream does things well, but isn't fast enough for the international game. Why not bring in an EPB or a CCV to play against Cuba and determine who should be the 3rd and 4th CB?

bjelks
Post #284
Friday November 8, 2019 11:29pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,347
And there's lots of evidence that Long is really bad 1v1 against avg attackers
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #285
Friday November 8, 2019 11:56pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,270
Original post from cudevil

Stop saying that this is the best group we've got when Berhalter hasn't even tried guys that are playing well for their clubs. There is zero basis for that statement.

Dwyer and Sapong are 29 and 30, respectively. They have no future with the senior set up. Sabbi might. And yes, he's played well enough to merit a look over guys that we know can't play for the Nats. Hell, I'm not even saying Sabbi is all that great. I just know Zardes doesn't have the quality to play at the international level. That's indisputable. Continuing to bring Zardes in when he continues to fail for the senior team certainly isn't creating a meritocracy.

Oh, as far as Lovitz "being gone" with Dest in the fold. I was assured that Trapp was going to get phased out as the Berhalter regime progressed. That doesn't appear to be happening. So why, exactly, should we believe that Lovitz is going to be outside looking in?

Christ, you act as if spots 12-18 don't matter. Our best CB pairing is probably Long and Brooks (it's becoming very clear that GB, for whatever reason doesn't rate Miazga). Brooks is very unreliable. Ream does things well, but isn't fast enough for the international game. Why not bring in an EPB or a CCV to play against Cuba and determine who should be the 3rd and 4th CB?
What about taking a look at Ebobisse? Toye? I mentioned Christian Ramirez, and hes still at an age where he could be in the fold. Why not complain about him getting overlooked when he has produced better numbers in a better league than Sabbi? All of those guys have.

Ok, you complain about Trapp. How many times has he played in the last 10 US games? How many in the last 7? He didn't even dress for the most recent games. Hes pretty clearly getting phased out. In the roster, yes. Playing, no. Facts and stats don't lie on that one. Hes getting called in... but not playing because better guys are emerging ahead of him. And remember, Adams is still hurt. You are witnessing what you wanted to see (Trapp get pushed out and not play) but you're still complaining about it.

You're complaining about Lovitz, and while I agree... this is the #2 LB option we are talking about right now with Dest. Not a starter... a bench warmer. Robinson not getting a nod is noteworthy because he has a claim, but if it was between having him play in the U23s or sit the bench behind Dest in this most recent camp... I would absolutely send him to the U23s where he would play and build rapport on a team that he will likely be with if we qualify for the Olympics. So instead of arguing for Robinson, argue for someone who is not in the U23 age group who should get a look over Lovitz. That makes sense, but thats not what you're doing.

I'm not saying spots 12-18 don't matter. What I'm saying is that realistically spots 1-16 are already accounted for. The remaining spots that are up for grabs, people are making arguments for players they know nothing about or have never seen play, simply because they play in Europe. I will use Sabbi as an example... when was the last time you watched a full Hobro game? Are you a fan of Scandanavian football? I highly doubt it, so you're an example of what I'm referring to when I say people are getting uptight over random guys they've never seen play, having a blind belief that they are somehow better than MLS counterparts simply because they play in Europe.

Talking about EPB and CCV... Ream plays in Championship (the same league as CCV and arguably a better league than Belgium), has played in the Premier League, and is a consistent go to starter for his club. He is most certainly in front of CCV and EPB in the pecking order based on that criteria. Miazga too. And although Ream is on the older side, he is on the fringe where he could potentially be in the fold for the WC, so from that perspective it makes no sense to cast him aside yet. Long, Brooks, Ream, Miazga are all in front of those guys at the moment... so in reality, spots 3 and 4 aren't exactly up for grabs... spots 5 and 6 are. Add in Zimmerman, Miles Robinson, Alvarado, Ike Opara, etc, and you start wandering into the territory of arguing for CCV and EPB simply on the basis that they play in Europe and nothing else. Opara... great CB, disappointed why he hasn't gotten more attention. Zimmerman had European interest, but opted to stay in MLS for money (can't blame him), is at an age where he will be around for 1 to 2 cycles, and its a serviceable option. Alvarado too. So its not like excluding CCV and EPB is some sort of crime or even controversial. Should they get looks here and there, yes, but their exclusion is not noteworthy right now.

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