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2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #1
Wednesday November 14, 2012 11:39pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,136
Ok I understand why Klinsmann went with the Jones, Williams, and Bradley for todays game, but the USMNT is screaming for a player that can at least provide some cleverness. I know when Dempsey is back Klinsmann will more than likely field him at the #10 spot. But I would argue that Donovan is a better fit in the hole versus Dempsey. Thats if Donovan decides to not sail off in the sunset after MLS cup final. Anyways here is a look at potential line-up going into the Hex versus Honduras.

Pontius------Deuce-------Zusi
---------Donovan----------
------Bradley------Williams-----
Fabian----Cam----Gonzo----Dolo--
----------Howard-----------

With the way Donovan is combining with Keane in LA you could potentially get the same kind of movement with Donovan paired with Deuce. I like Zusi's potential to serve in crosses, and the way Pontius looks to cut insdie and shoot on goal.

None of the USMNT's strikers are convincing right now, and I would take Deuce's ability to poach over any other going into the Hex. Hell you could have Donovan and Deuce switching places throughout the game( kind of what Lando and Keane do for LA), so Donovan can use his speed to stretch defenses at certain times of the game.

Anyways I would like to see the top Line-up.

Here is another potential line-up.

Zusi------EJ------Lando
-------Deuce--------
----Bradley----Williams------
Fabian--Boca---Cam----Dolo
-------Howard--------

EJ and Deuce seem to have great chemistry on the field, so I don't see why you would break that up going into the Hex.

Here is my 24 man Roster to go up against Honduras:
GK: Rimando, Guzan, Howard
Defense: Dolo, Chandler, Fabian, Castillo, Cam, Boca, Gonzo, Besler
CM's: Jones, Bradley, Williams, Diskerud
AM's: Donovan, Zusi, Pontius, Gatt
FWDS: Deuce, Altidore, EJ, Boyd

Yes I have Donovan in there, and I also have JK announcing him as captain as well.

Coach Kev
Savannah, GA
Post #2
Thursday November 15, 2012 4:24am

Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts: 283
Donovan is definitely the playmaker. I think Mix can be that as well. Landon certainly can do it from the wings and I think Deuce can too. I would love to see the US line up like Bayern in a 4-2-3-1 with Landon-Bradley-Dempsey as the three (like Ribery-Kroos-Muller...or Robben in the 4 or 5 games he isn't hurt). Why not that will Williams and Jones sitting like Schweiny and Martinez/Gustavo? All of those players have similar attributes, maybe the Americans have them on a slightly lower scale but it is still there.
Bayern fan and American Outlaw
richieJkulesaNY
Post #3
Thursday November 15, 2012 1:45pm

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 951
Williams, Bradley, and Jones cannot be on the field at the same time. I do agree with the 4-2-3-1 formation, but I would have Bradley paired with Williams just behind the attacking mids and forwards. Bradley is a star as the #8. For now Demps sits in the hole and I like Zusi and Donovan as our wings. Mix could be a solution in the hole as well and you could put Dempsey on the left. Dempsey will have a bit more freedom out there with Johnson behind him. Plus I think he is more comfortable pinching inside which will open up the outside for Johnson to exploit.

recycledhumans
DFWTX
Post #4
Thursday November 15, 2012 10:53pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,164
Williams, Bradley, and Jones cannot be on the field at the same time.


I agree, but I think it's much more effective to have Bradley and Jones playing as the tandem, since a lot of the defensive miscues we saw last night were Williams' fault (including but not limited to the error leading to the first goal). Bradley (as was evidenced by his goal) should be the more forward of the two, and I like Williams' as a backup for Jones as the more defensively minded of the two, with Mix being the backup for Bradley.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #5
Friday November 16, 2012 12:04am

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 951
I dont think Bradley and Jones play well together because Jones isnt a true 6, whereas Wiliiams is. There were a few times yesterday where Jones and Bradley almost ran into one another while in possession. Williams had a tough game yesterday, yes. But I think that had something to do with the setup. Jones is too much of a wild card. It doesnt seem like anybody on the field knows what he's going to do when hes on the ball. I think we saw some nice progression the last few qualifiers with DWill and MB in the midfield together. Seems like Bradley trusts him more to me.

admsghs27
Post #6
Friday November 16, 2012 12:11am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 3,304
A couple years down the road that play maker will be junior Flores who recently got sign by Borrussia Dortmund...... A Lil disappointing that Joe gyau dint play or wasn't even on the game day roster......

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #7
Friday November 16, 2012 12:22am

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,136
Original post from admsghs27

A couple years down the road that play maker will be junior Flores who recently got sign by Borrussia Dortmund...... A Lil disappointing that Joe gyau dint play or wasn't even on the game day roster......


Possibly, but everyone thought Adu would be that playmaker by now. Just because a player is successful at youth level does not mean that player will be successful at senior level. My guess eventually Freddy Adu is brought back in.

richieJkulesaNY
Post #8
Friday November 16, 2012 2:34am

Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts: 951
Original post from admsghs27

A couple years down the road that play maker will be junior Flores who recently got sign by Borrussia Dortmund...... A Lil disappointing that Joe gyau dint play or wasn't even on the game day roster......


Gyau had a game Monday night for St Pauli. Probably a big contributing factor to why he didn't even dress.

dolcem
Post #9
Wednesday November 21, 2012 3:01pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Donovan is not a CAM. We tried that a lot under Bradley and he wasn't effective in that position. He isn't that good of a distributor and doesn't shoot from distance. His speed and fitness are his strengths and he is definitely a winger. Dempsey is a winger as well but I think he could play as a #10. The problem is if we decide to play a 4-5-1 (which might be a good idea considering how isolated our front three look when we use a 4-3-3) and put Dempsey as the #10 and Donovan on one side, who will play on the other side?

One option would be to put Dempsey on the other wing and have someone else play as the #10, but as the OP discusses, we don't have that player. When an attacking midfielder is used the whole team depends on him. It has to be a good player.

Diskerud is a decent player in Norway but not good enough for such a responsibility (and he isn't all that young either, I doubt he makes it to a better league). From what I hear he's more of a CM anyway. I guess I'd be willing to see JK try it but unless he really tears it up I don't think he'll be good enough for playing teams outside of CONCACAF.

Gyau is getting some PT in the 2 Bundesliga, again not a good enough league. He'd have to be a star there for us to consider handing him the keys to our offense. And I think he's more of a winger anyway.

I'd love to see Adu given a chance but he is playing on a team that can't utilize him. Wouldn't make sense for JK to call up a player struggling so much in the MLS; not to mention, JK only wants fit, hard workers on the team and Adu doesn't fit that type. He is our best hope at that position for this World Cup though.

Klejstan is a CM, IMO, not a CAM. And I don't think he's good enough to be our #10 anyway.

Conor O'Brien: see Diskerud

Bradley: he played as a CAM at Herenveen, didn't he (I could be wrong)? He poached a lot of goals there. I could see him being a poor man's Yaya Toure and disrupting the defense and making late runs and poaching goals. But the CAM's most important qualities are his creativity, dribbling skill, and passing. Pace is also important. And those are Bradley's worst qualities, as good of a player as he has become since moving to Serie A (I used to be a Bradley critic but now over the past year or so he has matured into a great player). If we played Bradley as the CAM, at CM behind the three attacking mids we would need a destroyer DM (Williams or Jones, if he can be controlled) paired with someone good on the ball and a highly capable of distributing the ball from to the attacking mids. That player is Torres, Klinsmann just needs to give him a chance at that position (his natural position) instead of playing him out of position (like Torres always has been for us). If not, Klejstan or Diskerud might work but I don't know if they're good enough. Because if we play Jones and Williams as the CM's than we'll have no ability to maintain possession or move the ball from the defense to the attacking players.

Wingers:

Gatt: our best possibility. But he needs to move to a better league to give me confidence in a starting role for him. From the little I've seen of him, all he has is pace. Hopefully he can move to the Eredevisie this January or in the summer. If not I don't know if we can trust him against top-level opposition. I also think he's much better suited for a 4-5-1 than a 4-3-3. I don't think he's the type to take on quality defenders one-on-one. He could definitely be a sub though. But of course the biggest issue is whether or not he'll be healthy. He's often injured and I don't know how many games we'll see him play for us before 2014 even if he'll be healthy then.

Adu and Gyau are a no for the reasons listed above. And I think Adu is definitely more of a CAM than a winger.

I'd be OK with giving Klejstan a chance on the wing (in a 4-5-1, he couldn't do it in a 4-3-3). But I see him as a CM, not a winger, and I don't think he's good enough as a winger to play for us there.

If Shea would have moved out of the MLS a year ago I think he could have turned into a very good player for us. Instead he couldn't leave because of that contract he'd signed and now he is languishing in the MLS and is at the age where he is nearing his ceiling. By the time he leaves it'll be too late for him to have turned into a truly quality player (wingers peak very early). And that won't happen until after 2014 anyway. I don't think his attitude is good either (again, it happens with these MLS guys when they're a big fish in a small pond, send him overseas and it'd check his ego). JK doesn't seem to have him in his plans and unless he really improves his form I don't see him making the WC squad.

Torres is not a winger or CAM. He is a deep-lying playmaker CM. He was never given a fair shot or utilized properly under Coach Bob (for ulterior motives, I'd argue, but that's a different story) and Klinsmann has only played him out of position (usually as a left winger playing high up the pitch in a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, a couple other times as the CAM in a 4-5-1). He isn't suited for an advanced role, he needs to be sitting deeper. He would be perfect as a CM in a 4-3-3 or one of the CM's in a 4-5-1. If I were the coach he'd be starting there but that's also a different topic.

Zusi: We could put Donovan on the left and Zusi on the right. I'd be OK with JK trying that again because Zusi played well last time. I just don't know if Zusi is quite international quality. And he isn't young either, he just had one really good season (which happens in the MLS, where form is pretty random). And he is a CM anyway, not even a natural winger. I don't think he's the answer.

Pontius: I think he should be given a shot on the wing. But I don't know if he is international quality. I don't think we can rely on either him or Zusi to deliver against top-flight opposition. And isn't he more of a withdrawn forward, anyway? I'll be honest, I don't watch a whole lot of MLS (I'm a busy guy).

Holden: has to get healthy first, and he'll be playing in the Championship, unfortunately, until the World Cup. If he does and gets some PT at Bolton I'd be happy to see him get a call-up. He's been a CM for a while though. I don't see him as a winger in a 4-3-3, though possibly in a 4-5-1.

Castillo: I think a lot of this criticism of him was over-the-top and unjustified but I don't think he's quite good enough to play against top-flight international opposition. He could only play as a winger in a 4-5-1 though, not in a 4-3-3.

Fabian Johnson: that means someone else playing LB and I don't know if that's a good idea. Maybe we could put Chandler on the left and Cherundolo on the right (if he isn't too old by 2014, which I think he will be)? If not, we can try Castillo on the left but he isn't too good defensively and I don't know if I trust him against top-flight opposition. And like Castillo, Johnson could play as a winger in a 4-5-1, not in a 4-3-3.

Eddie Johnson: He's not a natural winger, he's not skilled, and he won't provide good service. He isn't getting any younger either. I don't think we can rely on him against the types of teams we'll be facing in the World Cup.

Gomez: this is a possibility, but he isn't a natural winger. I can see him playing on the left in a 4-3-3 but not in a 4-5-1. And he'll be 32 by 2014 and slower. I could see him coming on as a sub at striker but not playing on the wing.

Robbie Rogers: not good enough.

Jones/Williams/Bradley: these guys are CM's, NOT wingers, and I hate it when JK plays them on the wing.

That's all I'm able to come up with off the top of my head, and it looks like the moral of the story is that we don't have 3 attacking players we could use in a 4-5-1. That shows the sorry state we are in right now. This team is very much in transition and its core (Donovan, Dempsey, Bocanegra, Cherundolo, Howard) is getting old. If it weren't for the Germans we'd be in pretty dire straights. I don't know what is going on with our youth system. The sport has grown exponentially in the US over the past ten years. We've started academies. Yet no one on the horizon looks to be anywhere near the caliber of Reyna, Ramos, O'Brien, etc. or the guys produced more recently, Dempsey and Donvoan. We obviously need to take a serious look at why our youth system is only getting worse despite the conditions for soccer improving so much.

Conclusion: unless Gatt really emerges as a player good enough to start for us, we can't play a 4-5-1. We're going to have to play with a 4-3-3 with Altidore up top and Dempsey and Donovan on the wings. The problem is that Donovan might not even be playing soccer come 2014. If he is he'll have lost his pace, his biggest asset by far, and won't be able to go a full 90. We'll need a sub, or even a starter (and for Donovan to replace him), and I think that'll have to be Gomez. Gomez will be 32 though and I don't know if he'll be still playing at a high level come in 2014 and he'll have lost some pace by then for sure (crucial for wingers in a 4-3-3). The other guys that might be able to step in are Gatt (and I like him better in a 4-5-1 than a 4-3-3), Pontius, Zusi, Johnson and MAYBE Shea if he gets his act together. So basically we're relying on a guy playing in Norway who is often injured and MLS guys who couldn't make it to Europe.

Of course the other possibility is to play a different formation: one with two strikers. None of the best teams are doing this right now though, especially at the international level. You get outnumbered in the middle of the park if you do that. Unless, however, you play a 4-4-2 diamond with CM's instead of wingers. This is our other possibility. And it makes sense too because we'll get to play with 3 CM's (our deepest position) and without wingers (our most shallow position). We'd play Altidore and Gomez up top with Boyd and maybe Johnson for subs. Dempsey would play as the CAM. As for the 3 CM's behind him, the middle one would have to sit deeper as a destroyer DM. This would be Jones or Williams. At LCM we'd use Torres. He'd be playing at his natural position and occasionally would move out wide. He does have experience playing as an LM in a flat 4-4-2 so he is well-suited for the role. Bradley would be the RCM. He is possibly our best CM right now and has played wide right for a bit for us and looked OK. The key to this formation is having fast and fit outside backs who can bomb forward and provide width. Now that Chandler has committed to us, we have that. Johnson and Chandler play those roles perfectly (Cherundolo will be too old for that type of work and I don't think Lichaj is cut out for it).

Gomez Altidore
Dempsey
Torres Bradley
Jones
Johnson Cameron CB????? Chandler
Howard

Subs: Boyd, E. Johnson, Jones (maybe Edu), Klejstan (maybe Diskerud), Cherundolo, a CB, Guzan

Only problem is we tried this formation against Jamaica and we were terrible. Part of that was the pitch and environment. But mainly it's because the two CM's need to be good distributors and one needs to be gifted technically. We just lined up with 3 DCM's behind Dempsey that game. That won't work.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #10
Wednesday November 21, 2012 5:15pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,136
Original post from dolcem

Donovan is not a CAM. We tried that a lot under Bradley and he wasn't effective in that position. He isn't that good of a distributor and doesn't shoot from distance. His speed and fitness are his strengths and he is definitely a winger. Dempsey is a winger as well but I think he could play as a #10. The problem is if we decide to play a 4-5-1 (which might be a good idea considering how isolated our front three look when we use a 4-3-3) and put Dempsey as the #10 and Donovan on one side, who will play on the other side?

One option would be to put Dempsey on the other wing and have someone else play as the #10, but as the OP discusses, we don't have that player. When an attacking midfielder is used the whole team depends on him. It has to be a good player.

Diskerud is a decent player in Norway but not good enough for such a responsibility (and he isn't all that young either, I doubt he makes it to a better league). From what I hear he's more of a CM anyway. I guess I'd be willing to see JK try it but unless he really tears it up I don't think he'll be good enough for playing teams outside of CONCACAF.

Gyau is getting some PT in the 2 Bundesliga, again not a good enough league. He'd have to be a star there for us to consider handing him the keys to our offense. And I think he's more of a winger anyway.

I'd love to see Adu given a chance but he is playing on a team that can't utilize him. Wouldn't make sense for JK to call up a player struggling so much in the MLS; not to mention, JK only wants fit, hard workers on the team and Adu doesn't fit that type. He is our best hope at that position for this World Cup though.

Klejstan is a CM, IMO, not a CAM. And I don't think he's good enough to be our #10 anyway.

Conor O'Brien: see Diskerud

Bradley: he played as a CAM at Herenveen, didn't he (I could be wrong)? He poached a lot of goals there. I could see him being a poor man's Yaya Toure and disrupting the defense and making late runs and poaching goals. But the CAM's most important qualities are his creativity, dribbling skill, and passing. Pace is also important. And those are Bradley's worst qualities, as good of a player as he has become since moving to Serie A (I used to be a Bradley critic but now over the past year or so he has matured into a great player). If we played Bradley as the CAM, at CM behind the three attacking mids we would need a destroyer DM (Williams or Jones, if he can be controlled) paired with someone good on the ball and a highly capable of distributing the ball from to the attacking mids. That player is Torres, Klinsmann just needs to give him a chance at that position (his natural position) instead of playing him out of position (like Torres always has been for us). If not, Klejstan or Diskerud might work but I don't know if they're good enough. Because if we play Jones and Williams as the CM's than we'll have no ability to maintain possession or move the ball from the defense to the attacking players.

Wingers:

Gatt: our best possibility. But he needs to move to a better league to give me confidence in a starting role for him. From the little I've seen of him, all he has is pace. Hopefully he can move to the Eredevisie this January or in the summer. If not I don't know if we can trust him against top-level opposition. I also think he's much better suited for a 4-5-1 than a 4-3-3. I don't think he's the type to take on quality defenders one-on-one. He could definitely be a sub though. But of course the biggest issue is whether or not he'll be healthy. He's often injured and I don't know how many games we'll see him play for us before 2014 even if he'll be healthy then.

Adu and Gyau are a no for the reasons listed above. And I think Adu is definitely more of a CAM than a winger.

I'd be OK with giving Klejstan a chance on the wing (in a 4-5-1, he couldn't do it in a 4-3-3). But I see him as a CM, not a winger, and I don't think he's good enough as a winger to play for us there.

If Shea would have moved out of the MLS a year ago I think he could have turned into a very good player for us. Instead he couldn't leave because of that contract he'd signed and now he is languishing in the MLS and is at the age where he is nearing his ceiling. By the time he leaves it'll be too late for him to have turned into a truly quality player (wingers peak very early). And that won't happen until after 2014 anyway. I don't think his attitude is good either (again, it happens with these MLS guys when they're a big fish in a small pond, send him overseas and it'd check his ego). JK doesn't seem to have him in his plans and unless he really improves his form I don't see him making the WC squad.

Torres is not a winger or CAM. He is a deep-lying playmaker CM. He was never given a fair shot or utilized properly under Coach Bob (for ulterior motives, I'd argue, but that's a different story) and Klinsmann has only played him out of position (usually as a left winger playing high up the pitch in a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, a couple other times as the CAM in a 4-5-1). He isn't suited for an advanced role, he needs to be sitting deeper. He would be perfect as a CM in a 4-3-3 or one of the CM's in a 4-5-1. If I were the coach he'd be starting there but that's also a different topic.

Zusi: We could put Donovan on the left and Zusi on the right. I'd be OK with JK trying that again because Zusi played well last time. I just don't know if Zusi is quite international quality. And he isn't young either, he just had one really good season (which happens in the MLS, where form is pretty random). And he is a CM anyway, not even a natural winger. I don't think he's the answer.

Pontius: I think he should be given a shot on the wing. But I don't know if he is international quality. I don't think we can rely on either him or Zusi to deliver against top-flight opposition. And isn't he more of a withdrawn forward, anyway? I'll be honest, I don't watch a whole lot of MLS (I'm a busy guy).

Holden: has to get healthy first, and he'll be playing in the Championship, unfortunately, until the World Cup. If he does and gets some PT at Bolton I'd be happy to see him get a call-up. He's been a CM for a while though. I don't see him as a winger in a 4-3-3, though possibly in a 4-5-1.

Castillo: I think a lot of this criticism of him was over-the-top and unjustified but I don't think he's quite good enough to play against top-flight international opposition. He could only play as a winger in a 4-5-1 though, not in a 4-3-3.

Fabian Johnson: that means someone else playing LB and I don't know if that's a good idea. Maybe we could put Chandler on the left and Cherundolo on the right (if he isn't too old by 2014, which I think he will be)? If not, we can try Castillo on the left but he isn't too good defensively and I don't know if I trust him against top-flight opposition. And like Castillo, Johnson could play as a winger in a 4-5-1, not in a 4-3-3.

Eddie Johnson: He's not a natural winger, he's not skilled, and he won't provide good service. He isn't getting any younger either. I don't think we can rely on him against the types of teams we'll be facing in the World Cup.

Gomez: this is a possibility, but he isn't a natural winger. I can see him playing on the left in a 4-3-3 but not in a 4-5-1. And he'll be 32 by 2014 and slower. I could see him coming on as a sub at striker but not playing on the wing.

Robbie Rogers: not good enough.

Jones/Williams/Bradley: these guys are CM's, NOT wingers, and I hate it when JK plays them on the wing.

That's all I'm able to come up with off the top of my head, and it looks like the moral of the story is that we don't have 3 attacking players we could use in a 4-5-1. That shows the sorry state we are in right now. This team is very much in transition and its core (Donovan, Dempsey, Bocanegra, Cherundolo, Howard) is getting old. If it weren't for the Germans we'd be in pretty dire straights. I don't know what is going on with our youth system. The sport has grown exponentially in the US over the past ten years. We've started academies. Yet no one on the horizon looks to be anywhere near the caliber of Reyna, Ramos, O'Brien, etc. or the guys produced more recently, Dempsey and Donvoan. We obviously need to take a serious look at why our youth system is only getting worse despite the conditions for soccer improving so much.

Conclusion: unless Gatt really emerges as a player good enough to start for us, we can't play a 4-5-1. We're going to have to play with a 4-3-3 with Altidore up top and Dempsey and Donovan on the wings. The problem is that Donovan might not even be playing soccer come 2014. If he is he'll have lost his pace, his biggest asset by far, and won't be able to go a full 90. We'll need a sub, or even a starter (and for Donovan to replace him), and I think that'll have to be Gomez. Gomez will be 32 though and I don't know if he'll be still playing at a high level come in 2014 and he'll have lost some pace by then for sure (crucial for wingers in a 4-3-3). The other guys that might be able to step in are Gatt (and I like him better in a 4-5-1 than a 4-3-3), Pontius, Zusi, Johnson and MAYBE Shea if he gets his act together. So basically we're relying on a guy playing in Norway who is often injured and MLS guys who couldn't make it to Europe.

Of course the other possibility is to play a different formation: one with two strikers. None of the best teams are doing this right now though, especially at the international level. You get outnumbered in the middle of the park if you do that. Unless, however, you play a 4-4-2 diamond with CM's instead of wingers. This is our other possibility. And it makes sense too because we'll get to play with 3 CM's (our deepest position) and without wingers (our most shallow position). We'd play Altidore and Gomez up top with Boyd and maybe Johnson for subs. Dempsey would play as the CAM. As for the 3 CM's behind him, the middle one would have to sit deeper as a destroyer DM. This would be Jones or Williams. At LCM we'd use Torres. He'd be playing at his natural position and occasionally would move out wide. He does have experience playing as an LM in a flat 4-4-2 so he is well-suited for the role. Bradley would be the RCM. He is possibly our best CM right now and has played wide right for a bit for us and looked OK. The key to this formation is having fast and fit outside backs who can bomb forward and provide width. Now that Chandler has committed to us, we have that. Johnson and Chandler play those roles perfectly (Cherundolo will be too old for that type of work and I don't think Lichaj is cut out for it).

Gomez Altidore
Dempsey
Torres Bradley
Jones
Johnson Cameron CB????? Chandler
Howard

Subs: Boyd, E. Johnson, Jones (maybe Edu), Klejstan (maybe Diskerud), Cherundolo, a CB, Guzan

Only problem is we tried this formation against Jamaica and we were terrible. Part of that was the pitch and environment. But mainly it's because the two CM's need to be good distributors and one needs to be gifted technically. We just lined up with 3 DCM's behind Dempsey that game. That won't work.


Disagree- Donovan is no winger, and never was. Can ne play on the outside? Yes, but he is not a guy that goes the endline and crosses. He has never been that guy. Donovan has been much more effective for LA as a second striker/CAM. Bradely moved Donovan out wide because the USMNT had "no" options in wide positions. Dempsey and Donovan never played wide they came inside frequently. Donovan is more a RAM or LAM. Thats why I would put Donovan wide left as a LAM and put Zusi on the right as a RAM/winger. Zusi brings a needed element to this team which is crossing.

This would be my starting 11 in a 4-4-1-1 against Honduras:

-----------Altidore----------
----------Deuce-----------
Donovan-----------------Zusi
-------Jones-----Bradley------
Fabian---Boca-----Cam-------Dolo
-----------Howard-----------
Subs: Guzan, Chandler, Besler, Pontius, Williams, EJ, Boyd

If Donovan calls it quits then I would start Pontius and have Gatt on the bench.

USnLFCfan
Savannah GA
Post #11
Wednesday November 21, 2012 5:47pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,199
Dolcem, disagree on most and agree on a few. Also think you are getting tied up in formations too much...the responsibilities of a winger in a 4-5-1 to a 4-3-3 isn't much of a difference. As far as your CAM goes, Donovan has played well there in a few games, better than most that have played there. Gyau is a winger, period. Kljestan is a box to box or can play the center mid, he shouldn't even be in the discussion for playing the 10 spot. Adu is out of the picture till he gets his club situation going consistently. I would like to see O'Brien play for the Nats to see if he can pull off the 10 but more than likely box to box. As I said before, Mix is the closest thing we have right now that can make an impact and he is a box to box mid with some qualities that would enable him to play in the hole. As far as your wingers, when Holden comes back he comes back to play one of the 3 CM spots. I don't think Castillo is good enough to play for the Nats.

2tone, I would slightly disagree as I think Donovan is a winger especially in JK's system, the wingers in a 4-3-3 are asked to run at defenders and for the most part cut in to open up space for the outside backs to play to so they can bomb it in, sure they do it occasionally, but Donovan is more than capable of serving the ball in.

bbakerxyz
Post #12
Wednesday November 21, 2012 5:49pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 237
2Tone - Thanks for injecting some sanity here. Donovan is our best #10 ever. He plays outside because he CAN. That is, he's much more adaptable then Deuce and he's got the speed & fitness level for the wing.

I like your lineup. Outside mids are still a big question mark due to Donovan' physical condition (BTW, I think Donovan' issues are 100% physical. Any mental aspect of it is a result of him being banged up. As an old, over the hill bastard myself I can empathize.). Also, Zus just ain't good enough for a WC starting role.

I have my reservations about Jones like many others because he's such a spaz, but he's a great player so you gotta put him on the field.

And Chandler gets subbed in to cap tie him once and for all. Dolo is a better player (for now).

dolcem
Post #13
Wednesday November 21, 2012 5:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,045
Original post from 2tone

Disagree- Donovan is no winger, and never was. Can ne play on the outside? Yes, but he is not a guy that goes the endline and crosses. He has never been that guy. Donovan has been much more effective for LA as a second striker/CAM. Bradely moved Donovan out wide because the USMNT had "no" options in wide positions. Dempsey and Donovan never played wide they came inside frequently. Donovan is more a RAM or LAM. Thats why I would put Donovan wide left as a LAM and put Zusi on the right as a RAM/winger. Zusi brings a needed element to this team which is crossing.

This would be my starting 11 in a 4-4-1-1 against Honduras:

------Altidore-----
-----Deuce------
Donovan---------Zusi
----Jones---Bradley---
Fabian--Boca---Cam----Dolo
------Howard------
Subs: Guzan, Chandler, Besler, Pontius, Williams, EJ, Boyd

If Donovan calls it quits then I would start Pontius and have Gatt on the bench.


I agree with you. Donovan's natural position is as a withdrawn forward.

However, he isn't a CAM. He's a withdrawn forward who is best not having to drop back into the midfield and be a distributor. He's not a #10. He's much better at running at defenses than being a conductor. I'd rather have him play as a winger than as a #10.

Your lineup is the same I would use (making sure to sub on Chandler on cap tie him) except for one problem: the two CM's. Too workmanlike, not enough creativity or technique. We've seen the Jones Bradley pairing before: it isn't good enough at maintaining possession or moving the ball effectively between the defenders and the attacking players. They aren't able to make that killer pass to find someone open in the attack. The other thing is that I like Bradley much better in a 4-3-3. He has more room to roam and make runs into the box. If he's one of the CM's in a 4-5-1 he has to stay back and simply distribute the ball: not his strength. I never thought I'd say any of this but since he's moved to Italy he's become more than a decent feisty holding midfielder, he is a box to box player who can push the ball forward and distribute when given a lot of space.

Why not play a 4-3-3 with Altidore up top and Donovan and Deuce on the wings (and Deuce is probably better as a winger than a #10) anyway? Then Bradley can be one CM and the other can be some technically gifted who can distribute and move the ball forward: Torres (my pick), Diskerud, or Klejstan. The DM sitting behind them can be Jones or Williams.

With a 4-5-1 we have to rely on someone like Zusi and what if Donovan isn't around in 2014? At the very least I don't think he won't be good for a full 90. That means we'll need more attacking players and I don't know if Zusi and Pontius are guys we want starting in the World Cup. A 4-3-3 gets better players on the field.

I'd like to see the 4-4-2 diamond I mentioned in my post. I forgot the mention that I'd have Donovan come on as a sub for Gomez or even Dempsey (though again, I don't see Donovan as a CAM because he's not a good enough distributor). Hopefully JK tries it again.
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT LINEUP YOU USE IN FIFA
bjelks
Post #14
Wednesday November 21, 2012 6:35pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 146
Torres cant cut it for the Nats. He's timid, weak, and slow. If you're bringing him on for creativity and distribution, he's still hasnt proven to be able to do that for the US.

Zusi does not have the motor or pace to be an effective winger. He is tactically aware, however he doesnt have the technical or athletic ability to play center mid either. And against higher quality international teams, he wont have the time to get his so coveted crosses off.

If JK wants us to have any chance of success in WC 2014, he wont touch Chandler and Johnson, they are potentially the best wide back pairing we've ever had.

You can play Dempsey or Donovan as a second forward or attacking winger. It doesnt matter.

For striker, the pecking order goes Altidore, Boyd, Gomez, in that order. I'm not big on Gomez because he's not the athlete either of them are and he's not enough better technically, if better to make a difference.

I've been preaching this for years, Adu is the most talented player in American history. There is no reason he shouldnt be on the field, especially since we don't have a player that is more creative or technically gifted than him.

Shea, Gyau, Taylor, Nguyen, and Zizou are our most talented wingers. Gatt has pace but he's fragile and he lacks the ability to run at defenders and cross right now.

Last thing, I dont want to hear anything about Adu's club form with Aguedelo's club form being non existent and Joe Corona not being a consistent starter.
goalsense
2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #15
Wednesday November 21, 2012 6:44pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 5,136
Original post from dolcem

I agree with you. Donovan's natural position is as a withdrawn forward.

However, he isn't a CAM. He's a withdrawn forward who is best not having to drop back into the midfield and be a distributor. He's not a #10. He's much better at running at defenses than being a conductor. I'd rather have him play as a winger than as a #10.

Your lineup is the same I would use (making sure to sub on Chandler on cap tie him) except for one problem: the two CM's. Too workmanlike, not enough creativity or technique. We've seen the Jones Bradley pairing before: it isn't good enough at maintaining possession or moving the ball effectively between the defenders and the attacking players. They aren't able to make that killer pass to find someone open in the attack. The other thing is that I like Bradley much better in a 4-3-3. He has more room to roam and make runs into the box. If he's one of the CM's in a 4-5-1 he has to stay back and simply distribute the ball: not his strength. I never thought I'd say any of this but since he's moved to Italy he's become more than a decent feisty holding midfielder, he is a box to box player who can push the ball forward and distribute when given a lot of space.

Why not play a 4-3-3 with Altidore up top and Donovan and Deuce on the wings (and Deuce is probably better as a winger than a #10) anyway? Then Bradley can be one CM and the other can be some technically gifted who can distribute and move the ball forward: Torres (my pick), Diskerud, or Klejstan. The DM sitting behind them can be Jones or Williams.

With a 4-5-1 we have to rely on someone like Zusi and what if Donovan isn't around in 2014? At the very least I don't think he won't be good for a full 90. That means we'll need more attacking players and I don't know if Zusi and Pontius are guys we want starting in the World Cup. A 4-3-3 gets better players on the field.

I'd like to see the 4-4-2 diamond I mentioned in my post. I forgot the mention that I'd have Donovan come on as a sub for Gomez or even Dempsey (though again, I don't see Donovan as a CAM because he's not a good enough distributor). Hopefully JK tries it again.


Not a fan of Torres, and he has shown nothing in a USMNT jersey hence why Klinsmann is stopped calling him in.

Kljestan maybe, but yet again Kljestan has never really shown much in a USMNT jersey as well. Donovan, Deuce, and Zusi provide the creativity hence why you put Bradley and Jones at LCM and RCM.

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