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Know Nothing
Post #16
Thursday July 25, 2019 9:33pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,702
Original post from navi8132

Still barely any communication with our dual nationals.


I would think that the task should be Earnie Stewart's since he is general manager. He could delegate the task or create a new position for a recruiter (lol Blaise would be all over it).

In those instances where they feel the player is close to USMNT, then GB could potentially get in contact.

Lilshmike
Post #17
Thursday July 25, 2019 9:35pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from Know Nothing

I would think that the task should be Earnie Stewart's since he is general manager. He could delegate the task or create a new position for a recruiter (lol Blaise would be all over it).

In those instances where they feel the player is close to USMNT, then GB could potentially get in contact.
Exactly

cudevil
Post #18
Thursday July 25, 2019 10:25pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from Lilshmike

You're basing this off an assumption that may or may not be true. Did he say that Tata Martino called him? No. Maybe I'm wrong, and I will admit if I am, but I'm willing to bet money he hasn't. He only said that he would go to where the opportunity would come. Right now, thats with the US (because he is in the youth setup).

We know for a fact though that he has been in contact with the youth NT staff because he is involved in the youth US setup. Maybe the Mexican youth national team has been in contact. We don't know, but he is with the US right now, so that is somewhat telling, is it not?

Again... is it the job of the senior national team manager to call every 17 year old who has a pro debut and say, "keep it up"? No, absolutely not. With more and more kids getting pro minutes at young ages, this would become an unrealistic expectation and nearly impossible to manage with his other duties. Its not the senior national team manager's job to do that... its the youth national team manager for the kids age group (which we know for a fact has happened because he is in the youth national team setup).

What you're seeming to imply also is that this needs to be done specifically for dual-nationals in order to keep them interested in the US program and possibly choose us later on down the road instead of their alternative. So what, is our manager supposed to focus strictly on dual-nationals, giving preferential treatment to them when they cross a simple milestone (meanwhile still being nowhere near at the level required for consideration for the senior national team)? That pretty much neglects the kids who aren't dual-nationals, which is unfair to them and would likely lead to those players harboring ill feelings towards those who got special treatment.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be encouraging kids to stay with the US setup if they have other options. I'm saying that its not the job of the senior manager to give phone calls to every kid who makes his pro debut who is US eligible - especially when that kid is nowhere near the level required for the senior national team.

Again, it would be different if the kid made his debut and started getting consistent minutes for a major club like Tottenham or Inter Milan or Borussia Dortmund. But that is not the case here. Its the LA Galaxy. This honestly shouldn't even be a debate yet. Now if Araujo went through the MLS season, was named to be one of the best RBs in the league and proved over the course of many months that he was cut for the senior game either right now, or was showing glimpses of being ready to make an impact in the short term future... then yeah, sure. But again, that is not the case (and thats before pointing out that there are at least 3 other options in front of him who are young and will likely be with the USMNT for the next 2 cycles). So again, this shouldn't even be a debate.

And again, I appreciate the college recruiting analogy, but this is not the same. It is apples to oranges. It is not the same thing.


When the kid has been in the youth team setups AND is getting first team minutes with the club, I think a text or a phone call from GB (and others in USAF) isn't too much to ask. How many calls would that be? 10? I mean, it's not like this is some complete rando.

Lilshmike
Post #19
Thursday July 25, 2019 11:05pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from cudevil

When the kid has been in the youth team setups AND is getting first team minutes with the club, I think a text or a phone call from GB (and others in USAF) isn't too much to ask. How many calls would that be? 10? I mean, it's not like this is some complete rando.
Again, how many kids who are youth team players make debuts for professional teams? The majority of them. Griffin Yow just got a couple of games for DC United. Should he get a call from Berhalter? No, not yet.

That isn't the responsibility of the senior manager. It should be the youth team managers first, until that player has shown that they are ready, or very close, to start contributing to the senior national team.

Again, that becomes an unrealistic expectation of the senior manager - especially as more and more young kids begin debuting at young ages.

cudevil
Post #20
Friday July 26, 2019 4:05am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 989
We are talking about dual nationals-not any and every kid.

hamsamwich
Post #21
Friday July 26, 2019 12:44pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,212
Raphael Wicky says Berhalter and he do consult on some of his players and the way the u-17s play. So it's not out of the question. As far as Araujo goes- he was on the u20 WC team, has been called into the u-23s for Olympics team practices, so it's jot like he hasn't been given opportunities. I can see it both ways as us soccer has kept him in the loop and pushed him over other players. At the same time, people acting like Lima and Cannon are way ahead of Araujo is not true either. As far as I can tell their MLS performances have been similar.

Lilshmike
Post #22
Friday July 26, 2019 2:00pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from cudevil

We are talking about dual nationals-not any and every kid.
So then only dual-nationals get special treatment. Thats not fair to the rest of the pool and sets an inconsistent standard. "If you are a dual-national, you get a call from the head coach for passing a simple milestone in your professional career. If you aren't, well, tough luck. You get no call."

Thats a great way to start creating an environment where non-duals harbor ill feelings towards duals. That isn't a good precedent to set, and can bleed over into the locker room and/or field.

All of them need to be treated the same - as Americans. If a dual is good enough to contribute to the senior team and shows that they would want to be considered, great, have GB call them. Otherwise, its either all get a call or none get a call. And as stated, its an unrealistic expectation of the head coach of the senior team to call every 17 year old who makes a debut.

Do you think any of our coaches were calling Tyler Boyd when he first made his pro debut? No, absolutely not. It wasn't until he was ready and showed an interest in representing us.

Lilshmike
Post #23
Friday July 26, 2019 2:07pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from hamsamwich

Raphael Wicky says Berhalter and he do consult on some of his players and the way the u-17s play. So it's not out of the question. As far as Araujo goes- he was on the u20 WC team, has been called into the u-23s for Olympics team practices, so it's jot like he hasn't been given opportunities. I can see it both ways as us soccer has kept him in the loop and pushed him over other players. At the same time, people acting like Lima and Cannon are way ahead of Araujo is not true either. As far as I can tell their MLS performances have been similar.
Would you say that Dest is in front of him too? That would make 4. Or Moore? And if Berhalter is set on sticking Adams at RB, that makes another...

Seriously, this was a bit of a publicity stunt and people are taking the bait. This is a 17 year old kid with limited professional experience, who is nowhere near the level required for the senior national team yet, who is making comments in the media. He is even in consideration for the senior national team yet (where this actually would matter), so this isn't even a debate...

Also, does anyone notice how this topic seems to arise with almost every dual-national who is somewhat promising? Reporters and others ask the same questions to see what type of controversy they can stir up? Come on now guys, you're taking the bait.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #24
Friday July 26, 2019 4:04pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 874
You also have to consider that you may be taking an opportunity away from a player if later on they are not good enough for our national team but are for another. You don't just want to go out and cap tie every dual-national player because he might fit in some day. Some players also have family obligations/loyalties which we don't know about. How do you know that US soccer never approached them? If a guys says his heart is with Mexico then that is probably the end of the conversation. We don't need to head hunt dual nationals, I would rather have guys that are less skilled but love wearing the shirt.

Lilshmike
Post #25
Friday July 26, 2019 4:50pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from Kamphgruppe

You also have to consider that you may be taking an opportunity away from a player if later on they are not good enough for our national team but are for another. You don't just want to go out and cap tie every dual-national player because he might fit in some day. Some players also have family obligations/loyalties which we don't know about. How do you know that US soccer never approached them? If a guys says his heart is with Mexico then that is probably the end of the conversation. We don't need to head hunt dual nationals, I would rather have guys that are less skilled but love wearing the shirt.
Exactly. That is a bad precedent to set and will be self defeating in the long run by building a poor reputation and track record that may not exactly be appealing to kids on the fence later on...

cudevil
Post #26
Friday July 26, 2019 5:35pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from Lilshmike

So then only dual-nationals get special treatment. Thats not fair to the rest of the pool and sets an inconsistent standard. "If you are a dual-national, you get a call from the head coach for passing a simple milestone in your professional career. If you aren't, well, tough luck. You get no call."

Thats a great way to start creating an environment where non-duals harbor ill feelings towards duals. That isn't a good precedent to set, and can bleed over into the locker room and/or field.

All of them need to be treated the same - as Americans. If a dual is good enough to contribute to the senior team and shows that they would want to be considered, great, have GB call them. Otherwise, its either all get a call or none get a call. And as stated, its an unrealistic expectation of the head coach of the senior team to call every 17 year old who makes a debut.

Do you think any of our coaches were calling Tyler Boyd when he first made his pro debut? No, absolutely not. It wasn't until he was ready and showed an interest in representing us.


Dual nationals are in an entirely different situation. That's just a fact. I'm also not sure why you keep leaving the part out about Araujo already being part of the youth team set ups. That's a big factor here.

Moreover, even if Boyd wasn't getting calls when he made his senior club debut, he certainly was getting different treatment when it was apparent he could play.

You have to recruit a LOT of the dual nationals. That means calling them when you wouldn't otherwise call the player. If someone that doesn't have a second passport can't understand the rationale behind that, I don't know what to tell them.

cudevil
Post #27
Friday July 26, 2019 5:44pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 989
Original post from Kamphgruppe

You also have to consider that you may be taking an opportunity away from a player if later on they are not good enough for our national team but are for another. You don't just want to go out and cap tie every dual-national player because he might fit in some day. Some players also have family obligations/loyalties which we don't know about. How do you know that US soccer never approached them? If a guys says his heart is with Mexico then that is probably the end of the conversation. We don't need to head hunt dual nationals, I would rather have guys that are less skilled but love wearing the shirt.


A lot of these guys are already provisionally cap tied. But no one here is suggesting that Araujo be called up to the senior team immediately (and I frankly wouldn't care if he lost opportunities with another national team because we tied him to the senior team. It would be his choice to accept the call up).

What is being suggested is that you make the kid feel wanted so that if he is good enough, he would be more likely to choose the US team. It's really not that difficult. How long would it take to make that phone call or send that text to someone in Araujo's circumstances? Again, I am not saying that Berhalter and others at USAF should be calling every kid with eligibility. But a dual national that's been with the youth teams and that is playing for the first team with his club? Yes, we should be in contact with that kid, and that includes Berhalter if necessary.

Lilshmike
Post #28
Friday July 26, 2019 6:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
Original post from cudevil

Dual nationals are in an entirely different situation. That's just a fact. I'm also not sure why you keep leaving the part out about Araujo already being part of the youth team set ups. That's a big factor here.

Moreover, even if Boyd wasn't getting calls when he made his senior club debut, he certainly was getting different treatment when it was apparent he could play.

You have to recruit a LOT of the dual nationals. That means calling them when you wouldn't otherwise call the player. If someone that doesn't have a second passport can't understand the rationale behind that, I don't know what to tell them.
Dude... seriously?

Do you have problems with reading? I made note of this multiple times and also said that its not the senior managers job, its the youth managers job first until that player demonstrates they are ready (or will be shortly) for the senior game. Go back and look, buddy. You'll see what I have said, and I very much included that. Don't pull a bjelks.

And of course Boyd got special treatment when it was apparent he could play. You're literally proving my point. The senior manager gives them the attention when its clear they can play and can contribute to the senior team, instead of giving special treatment to every young dual national who exists and plays professional soccer somewhere. At the youth ages, thats the youth managers job... not the senior manager.

And again... there is nothing wrong calling up a dual national and giving them positive words. The issue is, calling a 17 year old who is still a far far way from the national team when he makes his pro debut. If the kid was going to be in a position to contribute to the senior team in the next 12 months or so, sure. But he isnt. As a result, that should be the job of the youth manager... which we know has happened since he is in the US youth setup.

The rationale is that you don't just call up every dual national who makes a debut simply because they are US eligible. There are US eligible players all over the place who hold more than one passport or are eligible for multiple nations. You give them calls and encourage them when they show that they are both open to playing for the US, and are in a position to where they can contribute to the senior team. Although Araujo says he is open to the US, he is nowhere near a position to contribute to the senior team yet.

And again, I take issue with making it a priority to focus strictly on dual nationals for the reasons mentioned in my previous post. Not only that, but how many of our best players right now are legitimate duals? Brooks and Boyd? McKennie, Adams, Pulisic, Steffen, Long, Yedlin, Altidore, I'll even throw in Sargent, are all full blooded Americans. Sure, we have some other duals in the mix, but they shouldn't be getting any special attention or treatment from the manager until they are ready, or looking to be ready shortly, to contribute to the senior team.

You're arguing something that really is a non-factor at this time and shouldn't be a debate considering the individual we're talking about (Araujo) and the context (he is nowhere near ready for the senior game and he has multiple people in front of him).

Lilshmike
Post #29
Friday July 26, 2019 6:48pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,301
@cudevil
Original post from Lilshmike

You're basing this off an assumption that may or may not be true. Did he say that Tata Martino called him? No. Maybe I'm wrong, and I will admit if I am, but I'm willing to bet money he hasn't. He only said that he would go to where the opportunity would come. Right now, thats with the US (because he is in the youth setup).

We know for a fact though that he has been in contact with the youth NT staff because he is involved in the youth US setup. Maybe the Mexican youth national team has been in contact. We don't know, but he is with the US right now, so that is somewhat telling, is it not?

Again... is it the job of the senior national team manager to call every 17 year old who has a pro debut and say, "keep it up"? No, absolutely not. With more and more kids getting pro minutes at young ages, this would become an unrealistic expectation and nearly impossible to manage with his other duties. Its not the senior national team manager's job to do that... its the youth national team manager for the kids age group (which we know for a fact has happened because he is in the youth national team setup).

What you're seeming to imply also is that this needs to be done specifically for dual-nationals in order to keep them interested in the US program and possibly choose us later on down the road instead of their alternative. So what, is our manager supposed to focus strictly on dual-nationals, giving preferential treatment to them when they cross a simple milestone (meanwhile still being nowhere near at the level required for consideration for the senior national team)? That pretty much neglects the kids who aren't dual-nationals, which is unfair to them and would likely lead to those players harboring ill feelings towards those who got special treatment.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be encouraging kids to stay with the US setup if they have other options. I'm saying that its not the job of the senior manager to give phone calls to every kid who makes his pro debut who is US eligible - especially when that kid is nowhere near the level required for the senior national team.

Again, it would be different if the kid made his debut and started getting consistent minutes for a major club like Tottenham or Inter Milan or Borussia Dortmund. But that is not the case here. Its the LA Galaxy. This honestly shouldn't even be a debate yet. Now if Araujo went through the MLS season, was named to be one of the best RBs in the league and proved over the course of many months that he was cut for the senior game either right now, or was showing glimpses of being ready to make an impact in the short term future... then yeah, sure. But again, that is not the case (and thats before pointing out that there are at least 3 other options in front of him who are young and will likely be with the USMNT for the next 2 cycles). So again, this shouldn't even be a debate.

And again, I appreciate the college recruiting analogy, but this is not the same. It is apples to oranges. It is not the same thing.

As you were saying...?

hamsamwich
Post #30
Friday July 26, 2019 10:10pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,212
Yes I'd say right now there's Yedlin, and then an age and experience gap to the next set of players which includes Dest, Moore, Lima, Cannon etc. I do think Araujo is a very good player and think he is worth a call against a squad like Cuba..... but it's not a big deal if he doesn't. Nobody as of yet has described this kid as a transcendent type of player- the way a pre injuries Gedion Zelalem looked and played for example. I think losing Araujo if he flipped wouldn't be nearly as big a deal as Dest would be.

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