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hamsamwich
Post #106
Saturday July 20, 2019 4:46pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,176
The nations league games are:
Friday October 11- Cuba (H)
Tuesday October 15- Canada (A)
Friday November 15- Canada (H)
Tuesday November 19- Cuba (A)

I asked before if people thought Gregg would revert to a more experienced lineup for these games (though I agree with @db707 it would be a crime to play our best players down in Cuba on that last game day) in the nations league.... but I'm not sure there's a consensus he tries new players against Mexico on Sept 6th or whoever the unannounced team will be a few days later.

I'm sure we will all have something to say on roster selection day but honestly he could do anything. I'm hoping Palmer-Brown gets a chance to try out for the national team.

cudevil
Post #107
Saturday July 20, 2019 5:09pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 962
Original post from db707

We are not calling in kids with no senior team experience in games that count. Just no. Actually, scratch that, hell no.


I don't think the Nations League counts. It's a nothing tourney, where we should be using mostly U20 and U23 guys. For me, the Gold Cup is a hair above that, unless it's to qualify for the Confed Cup.

db707
Post #108
Saturday July 20, 2019 5:28pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 993
If those U20 and U23 players are on their senior club teams, they are welcome. My point was kids on their clubs' youth teams should not be called up. Let them make it as a pro first. Everyone should be earning their spot at senior level before being called to the senior national team, and then maintain form to be called back in, and yes that includes Berhalter's favorites from MLS who he called up regardless of form (Morris).

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #109
Saturday July 20, 2019 6:00pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 829
Original post from db707

If those U20 and U23 players are on their senior club teams, they are welcome. My point was kids on their clubs' youth teams should not be called up. Let them make it as a pro first. Everyone should be earning their spot at senior level before being called to the senior national team, and then maintain form to be called back in, and yes that includes Berhalter's favorites from MLS who he called up regardless of form (Morris).


Amen to this.

cudevil
Post #110
Saturday July 20, 2019 6:38pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 962
Original post from db707

If those U20 and U23 players are on their senior club teams, they are welcome. My point was kids on their clubs' youth teams should not be called up. Let them make it as a pro first. Everyone should be earning their spot at senior level before being called to the senior national team, and then maintain form to be called back in, and yes that includes Berhalter's favorites from MLS who he called up regardless of form (Morris).


Completely disagree with this as it pertains to the Nations League ( and I don't think other national team set ups take a similar approach). All that should matter is who is the better player. Playing for the Nats isnt a lifetime achievement award.

It's like saying a true freshman, though hes the better player, in college football shouldn't play over an upper classmen because the frosh hasn't paid his dues.

blaise213
Post #111
Saturday July 20, 2019 6:40pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,964
Original post from db707

If those U20 and U23 players are on their senior club teams, they are welcome. My point was kids on their clubs' youth teams should not be called up. Let them make it as a pro first. Everyone should be earning their spot at senior level before being called to the senior national team, and then maintain form to be called back in, and yes that includes Berhalter's favorites from MLS who he called up regardless of form (Morris).


But again MLS isn't on par with these kids senior club teams in Europe. They're competing against better competition. Baseball analogy: It's like your your calling for a guy starting in the Korean baseball league (MLS) over a kid on the triple AAA team for the Yankees (Euro Youth Team).again

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #112
Saturday July 20, 2019 7:03pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,387
Original post from blaise213

But again MLS isn't on par with these kids senior club teams in Europe. They're competing against better competition. Baseball analogy: It's like your your calling for a guy starting in the Korean baseball league (MLS) over a kid on the triple AAA team for the Yankees (Euro Youth Team).again


Uhm... triple AAA does not equate to a youth team in European soccer. Triple AAA equates to the Bundesliga 2 or Championship orLa Liga 2 etc.....

blaise213
Post #113
Saturday July 20, 2019 7:15pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,964
Original post from 2tone

Uhm... triple AAA does not equate to a youth team in European soccer. Triple AAA equates to the Bundesliga 2 or Championship orLa Liga 2 etc.....


I'm still making the point that starting in MLS shouldn't be automatic over a player on a youth club team.

And again I have no problem with the younger MLS kids. I have a problem with the mid 20s/30s MLS players that have no attacking capabilities.

db707
Post #114
Saturday July 20, 2019 7:28pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 993
Original post from cudevil

Completely disagree with this as it pertains to the Nations League ( and I don't think other national team set ups take a similar approach). All that should matter is who is the better player. Playing for the Nats isnt a lifetime achievement award.

It's like saying a true freshman, though hes the better player, in college football shouldn't play over an upper classmen because the frosh hasn't paid his dues.


I argued the opposite of making a callup a lifetime achievement award if you read my post. I noted that a callup should be based on current form for guys playing at the senior club level.

Playing for the senior national team should be earned through at least the "better" player showing he is "better" than enough senior players at his club to make the senior team, or at least good enough to be loaned out to another senior team where he can beat out players there. Until that happens, he is just a prospect who may end up being great, but also may end up having a middling career or worse.

All I am saying is let the club system sort it out, have the national team manager pick the players who are showing they deserve it by how far they have gotten with senior teams at club level. The clubs are the ones who see these guys all the time, they can determine if a "true freshman" is better, and if they haven't done so yet, let's wait for it rather than call up a player who hasn't made it as a pro yet.

Know Nothing
Post #115
Saturday July 20, 2019 8:17pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,653
Original post from db707

I argued the opposite of making a callup a lifetime achievement award if you read my post. I noted that a callup should be based on current form for guys playing at the senior club level.

Playing for the senior national team should be earned through at least the "better" player showing he is "better" than enough senior players at his club to make the senior team, or at least good enough to be loaned out to another senior team where he can beat out players there. Until that happens, he is just a prospect who may end up being great, but also may end up having a middling career or worse.

All I am saying is let the club system sort it out, have the national team manager pick the players who are showing they deserve it by how far they have gotten with senior teams at club level. The clubs are the ones who see these guys all the time, they can determine if a "true freshman" is better, and if they haven't done so yet, let's wait for it rather than call up a player who hasn't made it as a pro yet.


Sorry, but IMO this is too scientific an approach...soccer is an art and does not need be constrained within parameters.

To create an analogy, you have two pianists. One is a professional lounge performer with a steady gig and the other is a student at Julliard. You have seen the professional at a bar from time to time and find his talent above average. You have heard a demo tape of the Julliard student and are blown away by his skill.

You need a pianist to play at a function and both are willing to do it at the same cost...which do you choose?

db707
Post #116
Saturday July 20, 2019 8:37pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 993
Original post from Know Nothing

Sorry, but IMO this is too scientific an approach...soccer is an art and does not need be constrained within parameters.

To create an analogy, you have two pianists. One is a professional lounge performer with a steady gig and the other is a student at Julliard. You have seen the professional at a bar from time to time and find his talent above average. You have heard a demo tape of the Julliard student and are blown away by his skill.

You need a pianist to play at a function and both are willing to do it at the same cost...which do you choose?


I'm saying we should let the teacher(s) of the student at Julliard determine if the student is ready, including if he isn't going to falter when performing in front of people, or when performing under less than optimal conditions. Then we can appropriately compare the two cases. If only raw talent determined who played the most live concerts in the '60s and '70s, it would have been Glenn Gould, but he hated performing live, was miserable doing it and retired from it at 31.

Know Nothing
Post #117
Sunday July 21, 2019 3:57am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,653
Original post from db707

I'm saying we should let the teacher(s) of the student at Julliard determine if the student is ready, including if he isn't going to falter when performing in front of people, or when performing under less than optimal conditions. Then we can appropriately compare the two cases. If only raw talent determined who played the most live concerts in the '60s and '70s, it would have been Glenn Gould, but he hated performing live, was miserable doing it and retired from it at 31.


Then you are relying on someone elses criteria which in no way match your own.

The teachers at Julliards have incredibly high standards...much higher standards than the bar owners that hire the other pianist. As such, the Julliard student may be the best option for what you need yet you are relying on the opinions of people that have been around prodigies their entire life and are tough critics. For the student to pass muster at Julliard he/she must go through even more than the other pianist, even though he is more talented.

db707
Post #118
Sunday July 21, 2019 11:30am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 993
Original post from Know Nothing

Then you are relying on someone elses criteria which in no way match your own.

The teachers at Julliards have incredibly high standards...much higher standards than the bar owners that hire the other pianist. As such, the Julliard student may be the best option for what you need yet you are relying on the opinions of people that have been around prodigies their entire life and are tough critics. For the student to pass muster at Julliard he/she must go through even more than the other pianist, even though he is more talented.


You're relying on the criteria of someone who knows the student, or player, the best of anyone. If you're just selecting for the national team based off of who looks great dribbling around cones in practice, or in a scrimmage against other young players (or even a meaningless friendly against senior players), you're not considering the totality of what is required to evaluate a player.

Your original analogy is flawed as the most talented pianist is not going to always be the same as the best performer, and I'd argue that's even more true for soccer players, as pianists don't have to deal (generally, or to the same extent) with other pianists trying to stop them mid-performance, threatening, hostile crowds, or different styles of officiating they aren't familiar with. Soccer's also only a team game whereas a piano player can be a soloist or part of a team performance. If you have a pianist who is brilliant but on a completely different wavelength from the orchestra regarding how a concerto should be played, it's going to bring the full performance down.

It's for the clubs to determine when a player is ready and for the player to experience growing pains there, not with the national team. For example, Sebastian Anderson has been playing for Colorado at 16. He scored the opener last night, but then got himself sent off for a sloppy, needless challenge. He'll learn from it (hopefully) and get better, but that's where he should be learning about things like what types of challenges you can and can't make in a professional game, at club level, and then with a sufficient base of evidence the national team can evaluate the player fairly against other professionals.

hamsamwich
Post #119
Sunday July 21, 2019 3:21pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,176
If I were to think about our forward positions in the front 3:

***If the coach persists with playing the RW as a sort of second forward, and he continues with Morris, then there are a few other options to challenge him:

Tim Weah - the natural choice for next up. I would pick him as he can play out wide or as a second striker. Gives him a chance to get into the nats right away.

Bob Wood - has played all over a front 3 for USA and in Germany, not done yet but needs a second chance.

***the system calls for someone to play as a real CF and link play. If the coach continues with Altidore, I give these two guys a chance:

Josh Sargent - again, the natural choice. His familiarity with Weah is a big plus.

Novakovich - slower, like Jozy. But has good technique and has "earned it at club level".

***If the coach wants to keep playing Arriola, then there are only two guys for me right now:

Tyler Boyd - can create out wide better than Arriola.

Christian Pulisic - maybe he's permanently a 10, but his best moments have been wide for USA.

bjelks
Post #120
Sunday July 21, 2019 4:44pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,291
Gregg has to figure out and fast if he wants 3 forwards who will have very little defensive responsibility or 1 true striker and 2 two-way wings.

If the goal is 3 forwards, our best bet is: Weah-Sarg-Pulisic

If the goal is 1 striker and 2 midfield wings: Boyd-Sarg-?
goalsense
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