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Lilshmike
Post #76
Thursday July 18, 2019 9:22pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,178
Original post from Know Nothing

So your argument then is that we should reward players of moderate to above average skills that have a comfortable time of it in MLS and in all likelihood will not improve? And conversely we should punish players like Dest that are training at prestigious clubs and have to compete with other top level talents for just the opportunity to train with the first team?

Yes, I am being overly dramatic. By all means if a player is playing at a good level then there should be criteria for replacing him (Reggie Canon would deserve to start over Dest). But if there is a player that is not performing to the required level, we should look to replace him and try to find the best player, regardless of situation.

And some times a players club situation dictates their ability to move. Two summers ago Kyle Scott was making the bench for Chelsea's PL matches. He had pushed for a loan move to Reading, a move which may well have got his career started in a more upwardly motion than it is now. The move was denied by Chelsea because they needed midfield cover for the foreseeable future. Sometimes the situation is out of the players hands.
First, when did I reference MLS in any of this? I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth. I clearly stated they needed to be playing first team soccer, and said nothing about where it needed to be.

Not only that, but punish players who aren't playing for their first team? Thats a ridiculous statement. Do you understand what you just said by that? Training is not playing first team minutes. Its totally different. If Dest is only playing in the reserves and trains with the first team, then he shouldn't be in the senior national team - he should be in the U20s with his appropriate age group. If Dest breaks through, starts making the bench, gets minutes, or goes out on loan to get first team minutes, by all means call him in. But until then, he isnt there. That isn't a punishment at all, this is standard operating procedure for every national team.

I agree, if a player isn't up to the level we need and we have better options, we should look to replace. But (generally speaking) if a player isn't playing first team soccer and only is a bench/reserve/youth team option, then they clearly aren't at the level where they need to be to overtake someone who is a first team regular at their club.

The Kyle Scott example is fine. Look back on the threads and you'll see years ago that I was all about Emerson Hyndman. I thought (and still do to an extent) that he needed to be pushed into the national team and was going to be a big contributor for us. But guess what... he hasn't been doing it for his club. His move from Fulham proved a bad decision, and he hasn't done enough to get called into camps. He moved to MLS in an attempt to get minutes and be seen by coaches, and if thats what it takes, thats what it takes, but I'm not upset that he isn't getting looks because he hasn't earned it yet and nothing he has demonstrated at the club level to this point would indicate otherwise.

cudevil
Post #77
Thursday July 18, 2019 9:48pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 933
Original post from bjelks

Ibra on the quality of mls

http://bleacherreport.com/post/mexico-nationa...


That was a really weird response...

Herc: Vela has 19 goals and 12 assists, and his team is better.

Ibra: I was better when I was 29!

blaise213
Post #78
Thursday July 18, 2019 10:36pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,927
MLS is not the level of Europe, to be honest. Before, I played with players either on my level or close to it. Which makes the game connect easier. ...

Here, I am like a Ferrari among Fiats. And it can happen that the Ferrari can become the Fiat, or the Fiat can become the Ferrari.

- Zlatan Ibrahimović

navi8132
New York
Post #79
Thursday July 18, 2019 11:34pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 3,100
Oh my god that quote is wild. He actually admitted that sometimes he is playing like a Fiat. That's some humility I've never heard from Zlatan.

snipes87
Cleveland, Ohio
Post #80
Friday July 19, 2019 12:06am

Joined Jul 2013
Total Posts: 886
I mean, he's not wrong
If you don't love it, leave it, USA #1
Know Nothing
Post #81
Friday July 19, 2019 7:09am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,617
Original post from Lilshmike

First, when did I reference MLS in any of this? I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth. I clearly stated they needed to be playing first team soccer, and said nothing about where it needed to be.

Not only that, but punish players who aren't playing for their first team? Thats a ridiculous statement. Do you understand what you just said by that? Training is not playing first team minutes. Its totally different. If Dest is only playing in the reserves and trains with the first team, then he shouldn't be in the senior national team - he should be in the U20s with his appropriate age group. If Dest breaks through, starts making the bench, gets minutes, or goes out on loan to get first team minutes, by all means call him in. But until then, he isnt there. That isn't a punishment at all, this is standard operating procedure for every national team.



No, you never mentioned MLS. But, frankly, there is no need to put words in your mouth because this debate has centered around MLS players that fairly or unfairly, get a leg up simply because they play matches.

Sorry, but not SOP for every national team. Ethan Ampadu does not play regularly for Chelsea yet gets called into the Wales squad. Ola Aina was in the same boat at Chelsea and was getting Nigeria call ups. In these instances, as with Dest, they had better, more established players ahead of them at the club level. It does not affect their abilities as a player, it only affects their ability to show their talent to a wider audience.

hamsamwich
Post #82
Friday July 19, 2019 12:17pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,143
@lilshmike- I personally have been bothered by your use of "better". You mean more experienced or plays more and other people are looking at their soccer skills. We know Dest hasn't played much but he can do things Yedlin, Lima and Cannon cannot. And so people think he's better. "If you're good enough you're old enough". A lot of people see it that way.

Like when months ago I said Sargent is better than Altidore and Zardes. It's because he can do all the hold up flicks and tricks of Jozy while making all the runs Zardes can make (offense and defense). He can shoot with both feet and use his head. We've gone through ad nauseam why he hasn't played for the USA, but his soccer skills say he is better right now. (And fitter, he's an uninjured 19 year old, you can play all the time at that age.)

Before there was an argument we needed our most experienced players but right now I have to say continuing with certain guys would make no sense. It's time to add to the number of players who can operate the system because right now I see Arriola and Long.

Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #83
Friday July 19, 2019 5:02pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,404
Idk I just think there is a very valid argument that if he's doing both of those things better than Altidore and Zardes respectively, why isn't he playing consistently for his club.

blaise213
Post #84
Friday July 19, 2019 6:13pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,927
Original post from Fraser31

Idk I just think there is a very valid argument that if he's doing both of those things better than Altidore and Zardes respectively, why isn't he playing consistently for his club.


Minor League vs Major League

Sargent would start on any team in the MLS right now

Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #85
Friday July 19, 2019 6:54pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,404
You're not wrong, but making a kid who doesn't play regular football your go-to starter as a largely unproven international coach is one of those risky moves that turns heads. If it goes well he's a genius - if it doesn't he's an idiot. All I'm saying is that it makes sense why he's not getting picked just yet. In due course, if he's as good as you all believe he is, he will undeniably be our starter.

bjelks
Post #86
Friday July 19, 2019 7:11pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
[quote]Original post from Fraser31

Idk I just think there is a very valid argument that if he's doing both of those things better than Altidore and Zardes respectively, why isn't he playing consistently for his club.[/quote

Because everybody in his club is better than everyone in Jozy and Zardes League. That's the point!
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #87
Friday July 19, 2019 7:11pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,143
I'm not making that argument, I'm saying he's better at soccer. The other guys have named myriad reasons why others are playing at club. Right now it doesn't matter what the results are we have to play as many people that the coach thinks have international quality. Having one striker that can't strike, and one who isn't ever fit - those are risky moves that just backfired.
But we can argue about that crap all we want-
I'm simply saying I'm making a point about their soccer quality not whether the coach thinks they play enough or that they lack experience compared to others. The better players should always play.

Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #88
Friday July 19, 2019 7:26pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,404
It's hard for me to say what I'd do in Berhalter's position with regard to striker. I wouldn't play Zardes if I could avoid it. Would start Jozy most times, and if I brought in Sargeant it'd be for a few consecutive camps and he'd get about 30 minutes each game and would reevaluate from there. I just don't think he's done anything that would merit anything more than that. I'd rather have Novakovich at this point in time.

bjelks
Post #89
Friday July 19, 2019 7:38pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,229
Original post from Fraser31

You're not wrong, but making a kid who doesn't play regular football your go-to starter as a largely unproven international coach is one of those risky moves that turns heads. If it goes well he's a genius - if it doesn't he's an idiot. All I'm saying is that it makes sense why he's not getting picked just yet. In due course, if he's as good as you all believe he is, he will undeniably be our starter.


But does playing the washed declining vets who play in a lower league and have already failed at qualifying and lost in the GC make Gregg look like more of an idiot?
goalsense
Fraser31
Charleston, South Carolina
Post #90
Friday July 19, 2019 7:50pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1,404
Nope. First of all nothing about Jozy's MLS form suggests he's in a meaningful decline. Second, every coach the USA has ever had is an idiot if we're basing their inclusion of MLS players as a criteria for their intelligence. Third, failing to qualify doesn't kick all of the guys off the next cycle. I don't even know what you gain by suggesting that, besides a less successful team.

Also, this team is gonna look way more young and european when everyone is healthy. Bradley will be an afterthought with Adams in the midfield, Cannon is good so GTFO here with that. Dest will be in the mix if he pans out. Long is solid and in contention not only for a move to Europe but also could compete for the Brooks pairing (who's also in Europe).

LB is weird and always has been,

This team will be good, and it'll be because of both MLS and European players. More importantly, some of the most crucial players are probably MLS players for now only. Pomykal, Long, Adams was literally an MLS player last year. Cannon could and should go abroad.

I just don't really understand where your desire to burn the place some of our best players originally plied their trade in, places that cultivated some USMNT legends.

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