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hamsamwich
Post #616
Sunday March 24, 2019 7:18pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,212
I'm not sure option A exists but if it did I would rank my options C), A), B).

but the player that has moved to MLS that I would be referring to would one who does get minutes for his club team in Europe but has come back to MLS for whatever reason, money potentially being one of them.

The problem with the English league is they have to be proven players to get a work permit and it's much harder to get one as an American (hence why Steffen is still at Columbus or why myriad other players can't get signed there.

The bundesliga is a very high quality league and probably my favorite to watch. But just being at those clubs doesn't guarantee you minutes for the national team.

Each player selected should be done on a case by case basis. Like many would say Haji Wright and Josh Sargent are roughly equivalent (forgetting Sargents age): they play for midtable (Schalke hopes) bundesliga teams, get in as substitutes and have scored a few goals. But anyone who has seen them play can see the difference. But I have no problem with a Lletget for example (option B) making the team even though he is not the type of player I was referring to (I was thinking Bradley, Jozy, Dempsey type guys who were full national team players, not a cap here or there).... Lletget is maybe who you were referring to but if he is showing he can play let it happen until he stinks.

bjelks
Post #617
Sunday March 24, 2019 7:55pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,414
I understand that MLS fans love Lttetget. What I don't understand is, what has he shown to not even consider that Holmes or Sonora are better?

Or how are guys like Lovitz, Baird, Omar worthy of a call up?

I'll reserve my criticism until the next camp
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #618
Monday March 25, 2019 1:15pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,212
A day away from the game.... without Adams and McKennie the buzz is gone. Pulisic by himself doesn't bring enough interest it's the youth movement in general. Whether he earns the callup or not @bjelks (that's just a matter of opinion)... Lletget doesn't move the needle with the fans that's for sure.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #619
Monday March 25, 2019 2:31pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 905
Original post from hamsamwich

A day away from the game.... without Adams and McKennie the buzz is gone. Pulisic by himself doesn't bring enough interest it's the youth movement in general. Whether he earns the callup or not @bjelks (that's just a matter of opinion)... Lletget doesn't move the needle with the fans that's for sure.


Speak for yourself, the buzz isn't gone for me. Anxious to see if we can continue to progress we have shown.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #620
Monday March 25, 2019 3:45pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,504
I'm excited to continue to see the progression. Would love to see Zardes continue to play well. Because quite frankly the #9 spot is not a solid position. For me Altidore is not an automatic starter, Sargent is still a young prospect and has learning to do(especially since watching him with the u23's), Wood isn't playing, will Morris be tried at #9 or will he continue to be a wide fwd? And Novakovich could push for a Gold Cup spot if he continues to score goals down the stretch for Sittard. Gyasi is not as bad as others would have you believe. In fact I would start him over Jozy right now.

bjelks
Post #621
Monday March 25, 2019 4:25pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,414
Progression is a funny way to describe the men's national program at this point.

Our best team ever made it to the 2002 WC Quarterfinals and went toe to toe with Germany with a very controversial hand ball being allowed at the goal line to give Germany the victory.

I would say our 2nd best team ever lost 3-2 to Brazil in the 2009 Confederations Cup.

The 2002 team had 8 Euro starters not including Landon Donovan.

The 2009 team had 9 Euro starters, excluding Clark who was sold to the Bundesliga the next season and Donovan who was loaned to Bayern Munich for 2 months the prior season.

It seems like there's a pattern with picking our top players who predominantly play in Europe or just in more quality leagues over lesser players who play in MLS and getting results.

If the last cycle is any indication compounded with the rosters we've brought in, it appears our program is regressing more than anything.
goalsense
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #622
Monday March 25, 2019 6:05pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 905
Original post from bjelks

Progression is a funny way to describe the men's national program at this point.

Our best team ever made it to the 2002 WC Quarterfinals and went toe to toe with Germany with a very controversial hand ball being allowed at the goal line to give Germany the victory.

I would say our 2nd best team ever lost 3-2 to Brazil in the 2009 Confederations Cup.

The 2002 team had 8 Euro starters not including Landon Donovan.

The 2009 team had 9 Euro starters, excluding Clark who was sold to the Bundesliga the next season and Donovan who was loaned to Bayern Munich for 2 months the prior season.

It seems like there's a pattern with picking our top players who predominantly play in Europe or just in more quality leagues over lesser players who play in MLS and getting results.

If the last cycle is any indication compounded with the rosters we've brought in, it appears our program is regressing more than anything.


I am talking about progression since that debacle at T&T where we failed to qualify for the WC. I am talking about progression since it took us over a year to hire a head coach. Were playing more one touch possession style football than I have ever seen us play. Get so tired of watching hoof ball all the time. Can we continue vs a solid Chile team. Also most teams have up and down times, that is why we have terms like, "Golden Generation", because were not making the quarters of every world cup does not mean our program is regressing. We do need to have a look at some of these guys that have not yet been incorporated into the fold yet. I know GB has said 3 or 4 new faces a camp. Maybe we could be a little patent since this is camp#2 since he has been hired.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #623
Monday March 25, 2019 6:17pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,504
Original post from bjelks

Progression is a funny way to describe the men's national program at this point.

Our best team ever made it to the 2002 WC Quarterfinals and went toe to toe with Germany with a very controversial hand ball being allowed at the goal line to give Germany the victory.

I would say our 2nd best team ever lost 3-2 to Brazil in the 2009 Confederations Cup.

The 2002 team had 8 Euro starters not including Landon Donovan.

The 2009 team had 9 Euro starters, excluding Clark who was sold to the Bundesliga the next season and Donovan who was loaned to Bayern Munich for 2 months the prior season.

It seems like there's a pattern with picking our top players who predominantly play in Europe or just in more quality leagues over lesser players who play in MLS and getting results.

If the last cycle is any indication compounded with the rosters we've brought in, it appears our program is regressing more than anything.


Huh.... Uhm progression under Berhalter. Not since the beginning of the program. Also progression for a program is never linear. Just like development and progression of youth players is never linear.

BMD15
Boston
Post #624
Monday March 25, 2019 6:58pm

Joined Oct 2015
Total Posts: 148
Original post from Kamphgruppe

I know GB has said 3 or 4 new faces a camp. Maybe we could be a little patent since this is camp#2 since he has been hired.


In today's climate of instant gratification, patience is a virtue most are lacking.

I get where people's frustrations are coming from, but I'm with you in that GB needs time to implement his system. He had the MLS guys in camp for 3 weeks where they learned what was expected of the team, the movements, tactics, and positional responsibilities. It seems to me he's using a trickle-down effect where he brought in a bunch of those guys to help teach/integrate the main contingent of Euro guys (Pulisic, Adams, McKennie, Brooks, Miazga, Yedlin) how he envisions the team playing since it was an especially short camp.

Hopefully next camp he'll cycle in a handful of new faces and continue to do so as we work towards 2022, fine tuning the squad as we go. There are plenty of guys who deserve a look but no one who was left out of this camp is suddenly putting us on par with the perennial world soccer powers. But people are quick to judge and three wins in three is apparently not good enough. There were both positives and negatives to take away from all three games in the GB era thus far, let's at least see how we build off of this foundation before jumping to conclusions and calling for his head.
NETID
cudevil
Post #625
Monday March 25, 2019 7:18pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,007
Original post from BMD15

In today's climate of instant gratification, patience is a virtue most are lacking.

I get where people's frustrations are coming from, but I'm with you in that GB needs time to implement his system. He had the MLS guys in camp for 3 weeks where they learned what was expected of the team, the movements, tactics, and positional responsibilities. It seems to me he's using a trickle-down effect where he brought in a bunch of those guys to help teach/integrate the main contingent of Euro guys (Pulisic, Adams, McKennie, Brooks, Miazga, Yedlin) how he envisions the team playing since it was an especially short camp.

Hopefully next camp he'll cycle in a handful of new faces and continue to do so as we work towards 2022, fine tuning the squad as we go. There are plenty of guys who deserve a look but no one who was left out of this camp is suddenly putting us on par with the perennial world soccer powers. But people are quick to judge and three wins in three is apparently not good enough. There were both positives and negatives to take away from all three games in the GB era thus far, let's at least see how we build off of this foundation before jumping to conclusions and calling for his head.


This whole "system" argument is starting to jump the shark. Berhalter doesn't have some difficult to comprehend system, particularly for Euro guys that have been exposed to consistent high level coaching. The idea that he'd use guys from Camp Cupcake, which has always consisted of fringe-y domestic guys (for the most part) to "teach" the most talented players in the pool is terrifying.

bjelks
Post #626
Monday March 25, 2019 7:59pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,414
Original post from cudevil

This whole "system" argument is starting to jump the shark. Berhalter doesn't have some difficult to comprehend system, particularly for Euro guys that have been exposed to consistent high level coaching. The idea that he'd use guys from Camp Cupcake, which has always consisted of fringe-y domestic guys (for the most part) to "teach" the most talented players in the pool is terrifying.


THIS Bahahahahaha!
goalsense
Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #627
Monday March 25, 2019 8:29pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 905
Original post from cudevil

This whole "system" argument is starting to jump the shark. Berhalter doesn't have some difficult to comprehend system, particularly for Euro guys that have been exposed to consistent high level coaching. The idea that he'd use guys from Camp Cupcake, which has always consisted of fringe-y domestic guys (for the most part) to "teach" the most talented players in the pool is terrifying.


So you have personal knowledge of GB's system and you know it's not difficult to comprehend? Please tell me what level of playing skill it take to teach something? Where do you think that GB's play skill is at right now? He took a core group of guys and kept some of them around to teach the new players being introduced to the system. How has that "jumped the shark" after 2 camps? TBH I didn't want GB as our national team coach, I wanted Tata Martino who now coaches Mexico. However I have been pleasantly surprised by some of what he has been able to accomplish, the team is 3-0 what results were you hoping for?

cudevil
Post #628
Monday March 25, 2019 9:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,007
Original post from Kamphgruppe

So you have personal knowledge of GB's system and you know it's not difficult to comprehend? Please tell me what level of playing skill it take to teach something? Where do you think that GB's play skill is at right now? He took a core group of guys and kept some of them around to teach the new players being introduced to the system. How has that "jumped the shark" after 2 camps? TBH I didn't want GB as our national team coach, I wanted Tata Martino who now coaches Mexico. However I have been pleasantly surprised by some of what he has been able to accomplish, the team is 3-0 what results were you hoping for?


Because in my opinion soccer systems are inherently on the simple side due to the free flowing nature of the sport. It's not like calling a play in football. Hell, even basketball is decidedly more rigid when it comes to having a "system". Moreover, if there is one area where US soccer lags really, really lags behind other soccer nations it's in the technical/tactical expertise at the coaching/managerial level. I find it really difficult to believe that Berhalter has such an advanced tactical mind that he's developed a system that is particularly unique or difficult to grasp (most particularly for the European guys).

And how has it jumped the shark? Everything constantly falls back to the "system" and wanting to "integrate" guys into the system. It's silly.

I don't really care about results right now. I want to see an expansive player pool, so that we can figure out who can play at the international level and who can't. If we win along the way, great. If we play well, but don't get a result. Great.

I also think cohesiveness at this juncture is entirely overrated, particularly when it's cohesiveness on the back of Camp Cupcake. Even if the system IS that complex somehow, we need to get as many people exposed to it as possible as quickly as possible so that we can tap into as many options as possible when building a roster. I'd need to see some kind of real evidence that it's particularly beneficial to have continuity provided by guys that are on their way out of the team or are still on the fringes called in because they happened to get 3 weeks with Berhalter due to the "off schedule" nature of the MLS calendar. That's not being called in based on merit. That's just being a crutch.

bjelks
Post #629
Monday March 25, 2019 10:49pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,414
Original post from cudevil

Because in my opinion soccer systems are inherently on the simple side due to the free flowing nature of the sport. It's not like calling a play in football. Hell, even basketball is decidedly more rigid when it comes to having a "system". Moreover, if there is one area where US soccer lags really, really lags behind other soccer nations it's in the technical/tactical expertise at the coaching/managerial level. I find it really difficult to believe that Berhalter has such an advanced tactical mind that he's developed a system that is particularly unique or difficult to grasp (most particularly for the European guys).

And how has it jumped the shark? Everything constantly falls back to the "system" and wanting to "integrate" guys into the system. It's silly.

I don't really care about results right now. I want to see an expansive player pool, so that we can figure out who can play at the international level and who can't. If we win along the way, great. If we play well, but don't get a result. Great.

I also think cohesiveness at this juncture is entirely overrated, particularly when it's cohesiveness on the back of Camp Cupcake. Even if the system IS that complex somehow, we need to get as many people exposed to it as possible as quickly as possible so that we can tap into as many options as possible when building a roster. I'd need to see some kind of real evidence that it's particularly beneficial to have continuity provided by guys that are on their way out of the team or are still on the fringes called in because they happened to get 3 weeks with Berhalter due to the "off schedule" nature of the MLS calendar. That's not being called in based on merit. That's just being a crutch.


Spot on!
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #630
Monday March 25, 2019 11:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,319
Original post from cudevil

Because in my opinion soccer systems are inherently on the simple side due to the free flowing nature of the sport. It's not like calling a play in football. Hell, even basketball is decidedly more rigid when it comes to having a "system". Moreover, if there is one area where US soccer lags really, really lags behind other soccer nations it's in the technical/tactical expertise at the coaching/managerial level. I find it really difficult to believe that Berhalter has such an advanced tactical mind that he's developed a system that is particularly unique or difficult to grasp (most particularly for the European guys).

And how has it jumped the shark? Everything constantly falls back to the "system" and wanting to "integrate" guys into the system. It's silly.

I don't really care about results right now. I want to see an expansive player pool, so that we can figure out who can play at the international level and who can't. If we win along the way, great. If we play well, but don't get a result. Great.

I also think cohesiveness at this juncture is entirely overrated, particularly when it's cohesiveness on the back of Camp Cupcake. Even if the system IS that complex somehow, we need to get as many people exposed to it as possible as quickly as possible so that we can tap into as many options as possible when building a roster. I'd need to see some kind of real evidence that it's particularly beneficial to have continuity provided by guys that are on their way out of the team or are still on the fringes called in because they happened to get 3 weeks with Berhalter due to the "off schedule" nature of the MLS calendar. That's not being called in based on merit. That's just being a crutch.
If players can't break into the first team at their clubs... then they aren't ready to play at the international level. I don't really think that can be debated.

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