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bjelks
Post #136
Saturday February 16, 2019 4:42pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,086
I hate to beat the dead horse, but I will never understand how someone who has never played a second of top flight football has proven that they're better than a much younger player that has and is.
That's like me saying because someone has played 100 NBA-d league games is better than someone who has played 10 NBA lol.
This is the biggest problem with how many fans and US media view soccer compared to other sports.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #137
Saturday February 16, 2019 4:48pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Also, it's worth noting that from a coaching perspective, its necessary to play players who are playing and playing consistently. People keep calling for guys like Sargent to start, I've seen calls for Wright, etc. I'm sorry... but if we have a competitive or meaningful game then that's just dumb.

The reason for this is that you only get 3 subs. It sounds so simple, but too many people either don't take it into consideration or are too ignorant to even competently make claims.

If you start a guy who is only getting a random sprinkling of 20 minutes here, 15 minutes there, 30 minutes in a cup game, etc, then do you really think they'll be match fit for a full 90? No, absolutely not. So from the perspective of coaching, if you start that player, you go in knowing that you'll have to burn a sub on them... which effectively gives you 2 real subs to work with and dramatically limits your ability to make adjustments during the game. And for arguments sake, if an injury occurs or red card is given before that player is to be subbed... well, now you've got 1 sub to work with and you're kind of screwed.

It's a handicap. That's why its necessary to have players who are match fit. Sure, player A playing in league X may be better and playing at a higher level than player B... but if player B is playing week in and week out, is fully match fit, and player A is merely a bench player for his team and only gets minutes here and there... then player B will likely be a better option to play in a game than player A because he may give more flexibility and options to the manager when picking a lineup and making adjustments throughout the course of a match.

Where and who you play for is important. But the most important thing - and cross reference any comment from any respected manager for any national team - is that you're playing week in and week out for your club. If a player isnt, then they are less valuable than one who is.

Lilshmike
Post #138
Saturday February 16, 2019 5:01pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from bjelks

I hate to beat the dead horse, but I will never understand how someone who has never played a second of top flight football has proven that they're better than a much younger player that has and is.
That's like me saying because someone has played 100 NBA-d league games is better than someone who has played 10 NBA lol.
This is the biggest problem with how many fans and US media view soccer compared to other sports.
Read my above post.

You keep calling for guys who are bench warmers and only get sub minutes in games. Candidly, to call a bunch of those guys in and start them, would be ridiculous. Sure, they may perform well for 60 minutes or so... but then they'll be gassed and the game becomes a matter of fitness... and the team who is more fit will have a greater chance of prevailing.

This isn't controversial. This is legitimately what coaching and managing is about. And here's an example you should resonate with since your love for Adu has been well documented on this site...

Freddy Adu... for a while when he came back to MLS he was still pretty good. Had good skill, a good touch, one of the more technical players around... but dude... he was not fit and gaining weight by the day. Sure, he had some qualities and creativity... but when you can only run around at 100% for 45 minutes before rapidly losing steam... you're of no help to anyone.

At that point, you're of no use other than as a substitute. And then, when your role is as a substitute, you should and will get paid as a substitute. Freddy wanted to get paid like a starter, no MLS teams were willing to fork out the cash he wanted, and now hes in USL. That is a topic for another day, and not trying to get anything further mentioned on Adu because this was simply an example, but you get my point.

bjelks
Post #139
Saturday February 16, 2019 7:24pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,086
Original post from Lilshmike

Also, it's worth noting that from a coaching perspective, its necessary to play players who are playing and playing consistently. People keep calling for guys like Sargent to start, I've seen calls for Wright, etc. I'm sorry... but if we have a competitive or meaningful game then that's just dumb.

The reason for this is that you only get 3 subs. It sounds so simple, but too many people either don't take it into consideration or are too ignorant to even competently make claims.

If you start a guy who is only getting a random sprinkling of 20 minutes here, 15 minutes there, 30 minutes in a cup game, etc, then do you really think they'll be match fit for a full 90? No, absolutely not. So from the perspective of coaching, if you start that player, you go in knowing that you'll have to burn a sub on them... which effectively gives you 2 real subs to work with and dramatically limits your ability to make adjustments during the game. And for arguments sake, if an injury occurs or red card is given before that player is to be subbed... well, now you've got 1 sub to work with and you're kind of screwed.

It's a handicap. That's why its necessary to have players who are match fit. Sure, player A playing in league X may be better and playing at a higher level than player B... but if player B is playing week in and week out, is fully match fit, and player A is merely a bench player for his team and only gets minutes here and there... then player B will likely be a better option to play in a game than player A because he may give more flexibility and options to the manager when picking a lineup and making adjustments throughout the course of a match.

Where and who you play for is important. But the most important thing - and cross reference any comment from any respected manager for any national team - is that you're playing week in and week out for your club. If a player isnt, then they are less valuable than one who is.


You make good pts, but I don't agree that just because a player isn't playing 90 every wk doesn't mean he isn't fit or capable.
Joel Sonora doesn't play 90 every week, but showed very well in 90 against a top 4 team in Argentina.
Haji doesn't play 90 every wk, but when called on played 90 and was serviceable. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sarg doesn't play 90 every wk but has been productive in his appearances.
I'm not calling on any of these 3 start, but I feel like they must be included because of their quality and ability.
In the same vein, if CP, Mckennie and Adams don't play 90 every wk, are they not 1st choice automatic starters? We don't have the luxury to not play guys that much more talented than their counterparts.
My pt is these guys are world class professional athletes and in peak physical condition. I expect them to be ready to go 90 when called.
goalsense
hamsamwich
Post #140
Saturday February 16, 2019 8:33pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,984
@lilshmike- you stick to your guns I'll give you that. But you now rank Sargent with haji wright and Emmanuel Sabbi? We get on @bjelks for hyping guys he hasn't seen but I can't believe you rate Sargent alongside Sabbi and Wright. That's a joke.

Lilshmike
Post #141
Saturday February 16, 2019 9:56pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from hamsamwich

@lilshmike- you stick to your guns I'll give you that. But you now rank Sargent with haji wright and Emmanuel Sabbi? We get on @bjelks for hyping guys he hasn't seen but I can't believe you rate Sargent alongside Sabbi and Wright. That's a joke.
No, you misunderstood it.

Per Dave's comment, the sample size for Sargent is too small to really tell how he will pan out. That's not controversial. That's truth. Wright falls into that category where the sample size is too small to call him in or make any claims about him being one of our better forwards.

Also per his comment, Sabbi just isnt at the level yet where he warrants a call up. Wright falls into that category as well.

I know you love Sargent, that's well documented. But my comment was not about Sargent, it was about Wright. I didn't make any claims about rating Sargent alongside Sabbi and Wright. Get off the high horse.

2tone
Ten-Towns
Post #142
Saturday February 16, 2019 10:48pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 10,178
Personally I think Bremen should be playing Sargent a lot more than they are. But yet again they see him day in and day out. I'm sure they have a better grasp than I do.

As for Haji Wright? Just not sold about him at all. I hope he turns it around. But I could see him coming back to the US with an MLS team in a couple of years.

Sabbi has a lot of athleticism, but just needs to be more consistent with his performances.

hamsamwich
Post #143
Sunday February 17, 2019 4:10am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,984
Florian Kohfeldt wants Sargent to beat guys out and take that spot. That's good coaching. I don't disagree with that at all. Sargent does somehow seem to play as a sub in almost every game now. Bremen have good options all across their frontline and Sargent is pushing them to be better.

I've always rated Altidore but yet again he isn't healthy. Expecting him to go a full 90 is much more than asking Sargent to do that at this point in their careers. Bremen have options more experienced and that are producing ahead of Sargent but for USA the same can't be said about Jozy, Wood, Zardes or whoever else. If they are all in the same boat, the youngest and most talented should play.

Anyone who has seen Haji Wright play (or Sabbi) would know that at almost three years older than Sargent he is worse in every category. Good luck to Haji but he's just another Zardes to me.

Lilshmike
Post #144
Sunday February 17, 2019 1:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from hamsamwich

Florian Kohfeldt wants Sargent to beat guys out and take that spot. That's good coaching. I don't disagree with that at all. Sargent does somehow seem to play as a sub in almost every game now. Bremen have good options all across their frontline and Sargent is pushing them to be better.

I've always rated Altidore but yet again he isn't healthy. Expecting him to go a full 90 is much more than asking Sargent to do that at this point in their careers. Bremen have options more experienced and that are producing ahead of Sargent but for USA the same can't be said about Jozy, Wood, Zardes or whoever else. If they are all in the same boat, the youngest and most talented should play.

Anyone who has seen Haji Wright play (or Sabbi) would know that at almost three years older than Sargent he is worse in every category. Good luck to Haji but he's just another Zardes to me.
I'm calling you out right now... you blasted me for "using the qualifier first off the bench" with respect to Sargent and his development at Bremen. That was in the Josh Sargent thread. Sorry, but look where he is... hes developed and is pushing into the "first off the bench" role as a forward for Bremen. Exactly as I has said, and it gives him a solid footing moving forward for his development.

You sip too much of the koolaid. Candidly, hes done nothing until he becomes a starter and scores week in, week out at the highest level. Until then, hes nothing more than a promising youth prospect. Yes, he has potential and its apparent, but for now hes just a bench warmer at his club (same as Haji Wright).

Glad you brought up the point about having Sargent beat guys out and take the spot/push others to be better. You're right, that is good coaching. That's also the reason why Sargent shouldn't be starting for the USMNT yet. He needs to do more to push out Jozy, Wood, etc. and earn his spot instead of having it be given to him based on potential rather than skill, form, fitness, or merit. That's bad coaching. That's also just common sense.

And watch what you say about Wright. I made the same claim (and rightfully so) about Wright being a lesser version of Zardes and bjelks head exploded.

hamsamwich
Post #145
Sunday February 17, 2019 3:00pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,984
He's not the first off the bench. But he plays.

None of the guys you and I both like have done anything in the past two years to say they are better than Sargent, they just haven't. He's playing at a higher level than the others, that's it.

I've seen all these guys play as younger players and now older guys. I have my own opinions on players. Wood maybe plays less for a worse team and does nothing while out there and Jozy is currently injured. How can you say Sargent has less skill or fitness than Altidore or Wood? That's ridiculous. Both those two are one more injury from retirement. If you aren't playing (Jozy) you can't be in form. At the current moment in our pool, potential (even though he rates ahead of the other guys in the categories you just said as well) means everything. It's why everyone is so butthurt over Bradley. Because as Berhalter himself said "every decision made will be with 2022 in mind and working backwards from there."

Lilshmike
Post #146
Sunday February 17, 2019 4:40pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from hamsamwich

He's not the first off the bench. But he plays.

None of the guys you and I both like have done anything in the past two years to say they are better than Sargent, they just haven't. He's playing at a higher level than the others, that's it.

I've seen all these guys play as younger players and now older guys. I have my own opinions on players. Wood maybe plays less for a worse team and does nothing while out there and Jozy is currently injured. How can you say Sargent has less skill or fitness than Altidore or Wood? That's ridiculous. Both those two are one more injury from retirement. If you aren't playing (Jozy) you can't be in form. At the current moment in our pool, potential (even though he rates ahead of the other guys in the categories you just said as well) means everything. It's why everyone is so butthurt over Bradley. Because as Berhalter himself said "every decision made will be with 2022 in mind and working backwards from there."
Yeah, if you want to be specific about it, Sargent is not currently first off the bench. But as I said in my post, he is pushing into that role. Not that he is there now, but he is pushing into it.

Also, find a quote where I said that Sargent has less skill and fitness than Jozy and Wood. You won't be able to, because I didn't.

Don't pull a bjelks and start putting words in people's mouths or try to make claims about what's someone means instead of what they clearly state. I clearly stated that his potential is apparent but he needs to earn his spot on the USMNT by pushing out the guys currently there. That's it, and that's not controversial. Again, you're sipping the koolaid. Get off the high horse.

hamsamwich
Post #147
Sunday February 17, 2019 8:46pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,984
Original post from Lilshmike

. He needs to do more to push out Jozy, Wood, etc. and earn his spot instead of having it be given to him based on potential rather than skill, form, fitness, or merit. That's bad coaching. That's also just common sense.
the four metrics you are using he is over Jozy and Wood. If the argument is our player pool is shallow I agree. USA isn't in Bremen's situation, we don't have six experienced productive veterans ahead of Sargent. We are very short at striker. And like I said, Berhalter (and Jozy in his interview with Herc Gomez) is looking at 2022 and the younger players.

Lilshmike
Post #148
Monday February 18, 2019 5:46am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from hamsamwich

the four metrics you are using he is over Jozy and Wood. If the argument is our player pool is shallow I agree. USA isn't in Bremen's situation, we don't have six experienced productive veterans ahead of Sargent. We are very short at striker. And like I said, Berhalter (and Jozy in his interview with Herc Gomez) is looking at 2022 and the younger players.
Dude... I wasn't using those four metrics as a way to rate Sargent against Jozy and Wood. I used those as examples as to why a player should be selected to be a starter instead of selecting a player based purely off of potential. Theres more than just four things I could have listed too, but I was providing an example. You're trying to read into things that legitimately just aren't there.

Again, I never made the claim that Sargent has less skill of fitness than Jozy or Wood. And again, get off your high horse.

hamsamwich
Post #149
Monday February 18, 2019 6:29am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,984
No I'm responding to what you typed. You have a condescending attitude to those who don't agree with you. Nobody here has backed Altidore like I have for a good 5-6 years, but he's basically done. To be brought in for competitions but not to be the focus of the squad. If running and pressing are the names of Berhalter's #9 game an argument could be made for Zardes and not the more static Altidore. As for Bob Wood, I called him that back when people hated on young Bobby as Jurgens pet, so I renamed him Bob because he plays a mans game. But he's never been a special player. Again, he had a good chance last cycle and did nothing with it. And his current club play is no better than that of the younger player.

The pool is shallow, and you're right @lilshmike. I do have my favorite. But there's a reason why. Wood has not held off Sargent and Jozy isn't healthy again. So who else in reality deserves to play?

Lilshmike
Post #150
Monday February 18, 2019 7:18am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,068
Original post from hamsamwich

No I'm responding to what you typed. You have a condescending attitude to those who don't agree with you. Nobody here has backed Altidore like I have for a good 5-6 years, but he's basically done. To be brought in for competitions but not to be the focus of the squad. If running and pressing are the names of Berhalter's #9 game an argument could be made for Zardes and not the more static Altidore. As for Bob Wood, I called him that back when people hated on young Bobby as Jurgens pet, so I renamed him Bob because he plays a mans game. But he's never been a special player. Again, he had a good chance last cycle and did nothing with it. And his current club play is no better than that of the younger player.

The pool is shallow, and you're right @lilshmike. I do have my favorite. But there's a reason why. Wood has not held off Sargent and Jozy isn't healthy again. So who else in reality deserves to play?
Sure, you're right. I said and think that Sargent doesnt have the skill or fitness of Jozy or Wood. I clearly stated it, you caught me.

Not trying to be condescending now, but can you point out to where we were disagreeing during that exchange, other than where you were claiming that I was saying things that I wasn't?

If you disagree, whatever. But I personally don't care for when people either start putting words in someone's mouth or try to make claims about what someone implied instead of what they actually stated.

You can take my posts as condescending if you'd like. It's tough to understand what someone is intending when you only read what they've typed instead of hearing that person say it in person. It's not my intention, but if that's how it comes off and is interpreted by someone on the other end reading, then they're free to feel however they want about it.

And just for full transparency, I keep telling you to get off the high horse because on a number of different threads when criticism (perceived or actual) has come in against Sargent, you're one of the first to jump in and comment. Just like how we started this exchange. I made a comment to Dave about Wright, not about Sargent, but somehow that got turned into me ranking Sargent with Sabbi and Wright? I mean, come on now... that's the type of stuff bjelks does and has developed a reputation for.

And yeah, I called you out after that post because you blasted me in the Josh Sargent thread for when I made a comment about Sargent doing well and looking like he is pushing himself into a first off the bench striker role at Bremen and you interpreted that as some kind of negative bash against him. But that's pretty much what is happening now with Sargent (which is a good thing)... so I spiked the football.

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