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Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #331
Wednesday September 23, 2020 8:05pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,062
Original post from cudevil

For me, the Nations League was absolutely the perfect time to bring in young, inexperienced players and give them all sorts of playing time. I don't expect a coach to do significant experimentation in WCQ. But Nations League? That's a nothing tournament that should almost 100% be used for player development.


Nice discussion we are having here, I am really enjoying it!

I would agree with you if we hadn't just suffered the T&T loss, I don't think the Coach or USSF could afford anything but first place in that group at that time.

As far as what you are saying about the system and playing players out of position. I hated it when JK did it and I don't like it when GB does it either. GB has shown some flexibility with his, "system" in some of our competitive matches so I am still hopeful there. I stated in another post that round of 8 at the WC was what I considered acceptable for the US team. I personally don't think that GB can get us there. I sure hope that I am wrong.

hamsamwich
Post #332
Wednesday September 23, 2020 8:52pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
I personally liked Jurgen and appreciated his contribution. And following him we've had a string of good old boy network decisions and hirings. At least to me. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but the rejection of Jurgen back to dinosaur Arena was an acknowledgement from the USSF that they wanted to do it their way. But that's just my reading of it. Everyone sees the same thing differently.

Lilshmike
Post #333
Wednesday September 23, 2020 9:27pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
@hamsamwich

It wasn't USSF trying to do it their way. They panicked and went with what they perceived to be a safe hire. A guy who was familiar with our player pool, knew the grind of qualifying, and had been to multiple WCs.

The thought was "he'll at least get the job done and we can worry about the next guy later after the WC". It was simply a band aid, not some good ole boy system or anything like that. But it was short sighted, because they weren't firing one guy with Klinsmann... they were firing 2. And when we failed to qualify, it compounded the issues created from that decision.

blaise213
Post #334
Wednesday September 23, 2020 11:55pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 3,184
Original post from hamsamwich

I personally liked Jurgen and appreciated his contribution. And following him we've had a string of good old boy network decisions and hirings. At least to me. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but the rejection of Jurgen back to dinosaur Arena was an acknowledgement from the USSF that they wanted to do it their way. But that's just my reading of it. Everyone sees the same thing differently.


Juren was good at first but should've been let go after the 2014 World Cup. His favoritism for certain players were handicapping the team and he made bizarre substitutions. The Jones/Bradley pairing didn't work at all. Should've never had them on at the same time.

hamsamwich
Post #335
Thursday September 24, 2020 12:36am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
That's your reading of it @lilshmike, I disagree.

I agree with that about Bradley and Jones - the truth is Jurgen wasn't a good enough coach. And neither was Bruce after that. And so we hope for Gregg.

Know Nothing
Post #336
Thursday September 24, 2020 4:43am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,830
Original post from Lilshmike

I don't necessarily disagree.

Check my statements on the kid. I don' think he should have gotten called in. That being said, the reason Kayo was called in in the first place was because his contract expired Jan 1 for his club team, and he was already set to sign a contract in Germany... he just had to wait until he turned 18. He was brought in for training purposes and to evaluate where he was and keep him fresh prior to moving overseas.

Calling in some young academy kid in Europe is what so many people, yourself included, have called for. In the case of Kayo, it was done and everyone, yourself included, slammed it.

The only difference between these Euro youth team kids and Kayo... Kayo plays in USL in the USA. Thats legit it. Bias??

And for the record... Kayo didn't even dress for the game.


Fair enough...but show me in my statement or anywhere else where I said any of the Euro kids had to dress either.

I would advocate continuing to evaluate one ore two promising players from the younger teams each camp, acclimate them to the team culture so they are not overwhelmed the first time they are selected to dress. The added bonus is it puts the guys on the fringes of the team on notice and nobody should take their place in the team for granted. And this goes for all youngsters regardless of where they play.

Lilshmike
Post #337
Thursday September 24, 2020 5:39pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from Know Nothing

Fair enough...but show me in my statement or anywhere else where I said any of the Euro kids had to dress either.

I would advocate continuing to evaluate one ore two promising players from the younger teams each camp, acclimate them to the team culture so they are not overwhelmed the first time they are selected to dress.
The added bonus is it puts the guys on the fringes of the team on notice and nobody should take their place in the team for granted. And this goes for all youngsters regardless of where they play.
So are you saying that you want us to yank academy kids away from their clubs, when they are working to crack into the first team, in order to train and not even dress for the game?

During windows of time when (ideally) first team players would be pulled away to international teams where it gives younger players the opportunity to get pulled into training with the first team and make an impression?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense, and on the surface is more detrimental to the kid and their development at club than it is to the progress of our national team...

Know Nothing
Post #338
Thursday September 24, 2020 7:02pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,830
Original post from Lilshmike

So are you saying that you want us to yank academy kids away from their clubs, when they are working to crack into the first team, in order to train and not even dress for the game?

During windows of time when (ideally) first team players would be pulled away to international teams where it gives younger players the opportunity to get pulled into training with the first team and make an impression?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense, and on the surface is more detrimental to the kid and their development at club than it is to the progress of our national team...


Is it really detrimental though? Youth players routinely train with the first team anyway so the coaches will already have an impression. They will still be training and if it is during a window will not be missing a match. All they would miss would be travel time.

Dave
Post #339
Friday September 25, 2020 2:22am

Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts: 1,111
Original post from hamsamwich

That's your reading of it @lilshmike, I disagree.

I agree with that about Bradley and Jones - the truth is Jurgen wasn't a good enough coach. And neither was Bruce after that. And so we hope for Gregg.


While JK was never a great at strategy, he was a decent coach.
IMO where JK failed us was at the Copa America in 2016, where he held onto Beckerman, Jones, Bedoya, Zusi, Besler, Howard, etc...
That tournament was a perfect opportunity to risk/test the next group of players ahead of the qualification process for the 2018 WC. This is where Williams, Morales, Nagbe, Acosta, Hamid, and others should have been given extended runs to prepare them to take the lead in the 2018 qualification cycle.
Arena just perpetuated the problem by relying on the same players as JK...but with more reliance on MLS players (Gonzalez over Cameron & Villafana over Fabian).
-
I'm still worried about Gregg's approach to player selections. We've been stalled due to Covid, but if he continues to call players like Roldan, Lovitz, Bradley, into Camps when there are better/younger options than it'll be clear he's following Arena's path of relying on Veterans over Talent.

hamsamwich
Post #340
Friday September 25, 2020 2:15pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
Just yesterday Gregg said "now you have to start winning. When you have that kind of quality, it's possible." He was referring to the talent playing in the Champions League, etc. So Gregg hasn't thrown in the towel. He is saying his goal is success, now, with this squad. So why am I supposed to give himself a pass when he doesn't give himself one? Back in the day Gregg reached about the highest level for playing that our talent standard could reach, and I'm sure that's because of his drive and determination. I just don't understand your viewpoint at all @lilshmike.

hamsamwich
Post #341
Friday September 25, 2020 2:19pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
@dave- I'm not worried that Gregg won't call in the good players or whatever. Of course he will call everyone when they are available. But can he communicate his message effectively while also putting the players on the field in a system and position that optimizes their performance. All I can think about when remembering the past year was Pulisic being subbed off shaking his head as we were about to lose against Canada, and the post Mexico Aaron Long quotes about not knowing what to as a team when Mexico pressed high because he wanted to kick it long to Jozy and Gregg said no. It's how he uses the guys not who he calls. Also some of you are taking for granted a fully healthy non quarantined euro squad for every game. We might have to play an entire XI of Roldan and Lovitz and MLS guys. Again, they didn't look cohesive before and that's on Gregg.

Lilshmike
Post #342
Friday September 25, 2020 4:02pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from hamsamwich

Just yesterday Gregg said "now you have to start winning. When you have that kind of quality, it's possible." He was referring to the talent playing in the Champions League, etc. So Gregg hasn't thrown in the towel. He is saying his goal is success, now, with this squad. So why am I supposed to give himself a pass when he doesn't give himself one? Back in the day Gregg reached about the highest level for playing that our talent standard could reach, and I'm sure that's because of his drive and determination. I just don't understand your viewpoint at all @lilshmike.
What are you talking about here?

What viewpoint of mine either doesn't make sense or runs contrary to what hes said?

His goal is understandably success... but how exactly is success defined? So far, hes managed us in line with what realistic expectations. Qualifying for the 2022 WC, showing well, and possibly given a bit of luck to get out of the group stage, would be a success... but in the eyes of a lot of US fans (including some on this thread)... that's just not good enough. Given our young crop of players, and assuming they continue to progress and we have a few more pop up over the next 6 years, we should have a serious team for 2026 ready to do big things - regardless of if GGG is still in charge or not (hopefully not).

We have some quality in our top guys... and my viewpoint is that he gets unfairly treated by fans for his selections when for the most part, top players either haven't been healthy and available for selection, or the Euro fringe guys and young kids they're crying about have either been called in, aren't good enough yet to make it into our senior mens team and/or there are other players in front of them who are either better or had a better reason to call in at the time of calling them in. Except Roldan.

Tell me, how does that not make sense? You're targeting the messenger, not the message, because what I'm saying is pretty straight forward.

bjelks
Post #343
Friday September 25, 2020 4:16pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 1,767
It doesn't make sense bc you're taking Gregg's judgement that players aren't good enough when he has political incentive to not pick the best players.

It doesn't make sense bc you're telling us that players aren't good enough even tho they play at higher levels and you've never seen them with the nats 1st team before.

It doesn't make sense bc you're giving Gregg an excuse to lose against teams we're even with or better than.

It doesn't make sense bc we have the most talented 18 players and for sure 11 we've ever had and you're conceding that making it out of the group would be an achievement.

It doesn't make sense bc we could see at least 10 players in Euro competition and you're downplaying the quality in the side.

It doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons lol.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #344
Friday September 25, 2020 4:29pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from bjelks

It doesn't make sense bc you're taking Gregg's judgement that players aren't good enough when he has political incentive to not pick the best players.

It doesn't make sense bc you're telling us that players aren't good enough even tho they play at higher levels and you've never seen them with the nats 1st team before.

It doesn't make sense bc you're giving Gregg an excuse to lose against teams we're even with or better than.

It doesn't make sense bc we have the most talented 18 players and for sure 11 we've ever had and you're conceding that making it out of the group would be an achievement.

It doesn't make sense bc we could see at least 10 players in Euro competition and you're downplaying the quality in the side.

It doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons lol.
I'm going to completely neglect everything else you've said because its a bunch of nonsense, except for what I put in bold.

Hate to break it to you... but thats not fact, and I'm willing to bet that lots of people, especially on this board, may beg to differ.

Compare what we have to 2002 or 2010 or times in between.

Dest and Yedlin are good... but I'm taking Cherundolo any day of the week at RB if we are comparing him to where they are now.

Peak Onyewu and Bocanegra?

Steffen compared to Howard or Friedel or Keller... that one isn't even close.

Sargent now compared to peak McBride or Dempsey?

Peak Bradley and Jones compared to McKennie and Adams now? Thats a tough one as well, not an easy one... and we don't have the luxury of comparing against a Adams and McKennie midfield because we've not seen it yet (Adams has been hurt, there have been limited windows).

Antonee Robinson compared to Fabian Johnson or Beasley at LB? I'm not sold on Robinson just yet...

Pulisic is in a class of his own... but other than him, there is nobody in our pool who would be able to top peak Donovan out wide... I'll even go so far as to say peak Beasley as well...

But of course... knowing you and how you handle differing opinions, me saying any of this would be called some sort of fanboyism or racism.

Know Nothing
Post #345
Friday September 25, 2020 5:30pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,830
Original post from Lilshmike

I'm going to completely neglect everything else you've said because its a bunch of nonsense, except for what I put in bold.

Hate to break it to you... but thats not fact, and I'm willing to bet that lots of people, especially on this board, may beg to differ.

Compare what we have to 2002 or 2010 or times in between.

Dest and Yedlin are good... but I'm taking Cherundolo any day of the week at RB if we are comparing him to where they are now.

Peak Onyewu and Bocanegra?

Steffen compared to Howard or Friedel or Keller... that one isn't even close.

Sargent now compared to peak McBride or Dempsey?

Peak Bradley and Jones compared to McKennie and Adams now? Thats a tough one as well, not an easy one... and we don't have the luxury of comparing against a Adams and McKennie midfield because we've not seen it yet (Adams has been hurt, there have been limited windows).

Antonee Robinson compared to Fabian Johnson or Beasley at LB? I'm not sold on Robinson just yet...

Pulisic is in a class of his own... but other than him, there is nobody in our pool who would be able to top peak Donovan out wide... I'll even go so far as to say peak Beasley as well...

But of course... knowing you and how you handle differing opinions, me saying any of this would be called some sort of fanboyism or racism.


I would agree for the most part except for Steffen. In the modern game the ability for a keeper to be able to competently play the ball with their feet is must and Steffen is far superior to the others in that regard. I would say of the others only Friedel was a better shot stopper.

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