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hamsamwich
Post #301
Tuesday September 22, 2020 12:05am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
Hard to have Roldan look good in the attacking midfield and wing when he plays CDM for the sounders. And Nick Lima as some sort of hybrid. Long as a deep dropping passive CB, instead of the high pressing commando he is at NYRB. Tim Ream playing LB when he's a CB for Fulham in both premier league and championship. It's just Greggs way of doing it his way. And that's ok. People should do what they believe in. If it came off well I'll be the first to say so (it used to look good for the Crew for the most part). If it comes off in the future I'll be the first to say Yay! But when it doesn't work and looks awkward at best, Gregg is not immune to criticism. I'll admit I don't give him the leeway I gave Bob or Jurgen because of the way he was hired. It clouds everything.

So here's a question- what constitutes current success? Everyone has their own opinion... what's yours? Mine is the most basic- come in the top 2 of qualifying and win at home vs Mexico. Go from there. These players can do that and while they do, they should grow as a group.

Samtom23
Post #302
Tuesday September 22, 2020 1:53am

Joined Jun 2018
Total Posts: 459
It is way to early to say successful or not. GB appears to base a lot of his selections on analytics, which you can rely on but not solely.

Also, GB cannot take credit for some of the players that are coming up. That would've happened either way. He happens to be the coach at a really good time historically for US soccer talent.

I agree with you that success should come up in being the top two this cycle and we should be number one next cycle. I also agree growing as a group, I don't think there should be a player over 28 years old this cycle. I would jettison a lot of players like Altidore, Bradley, Chandler, Ream, Johnson mainly because we should be looking at eight years and none of these players are going to make or break us.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #303
Tuesday September 22, 2020 1:31pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,062
Original post from hamsamwich

Hard to have Roldan look good in the attacking midfield and wing when he plays CDM for the sounders. And Nick Lima as some sort of hybrid. Long as a deep dropping passive CB, instead of the high pressing commando he is at NYRB. Tim Ream playing LB when he's a CB for Fulham in both premier league and championship. It's just Greggs way of doing it his way. And that's ok. People should do what they believe in. If it came off well I'll be the first to say so (it used to look good for the Crew for the most part). If it comes off in the future I'll be the first to say Yay! But when it doesn't work and looks awkward at best, Gregg is not immune to criticism. I'll admit I don't give him the leeway I gave Bob or Jurgen because of the way he was hired. It clouds everything.

So here's a question- what constitutes current success? Everyone has their own opinion... what's yours? Mine is the most basic- come in the top 2 of qualifying and win at home vs Mexico. Go from there. These players can do that and while they do, they should grow as a group.


Such a good question!
For myself I can accept no less than the King of Concacaf for starters. We ended the 2006, 2010, and 2014 World Cup Qualifying as the top team. We also beat Mexico the only time we have met in WC play. So I expect us to be#1 qualifier and be able to beat Mexico on neutral ground. I expect a winning record vs all other Concacaf teams.

For teams outside of Concacaf I want us to play with swagger. I know that sounds silly but it frustrates me when we play timid and afraid. I would rather get beat 6-0 than bunker and play afraid. I am not talking about conceding possession to a tactically superior team, there is a difference. I think anything less than round of 8 at the WC is failure at this point. That is pretty much it for me.

Know Nothing
Post #304
Tuesday September 22, 2020 5:46pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,830
Original post from Lilshmike

Easy to do that when you have kept the same stance and stay consistent in your logic.


Yeah, like the USSF while the house was falling down in 2018.

Lilshmike
Post #305
Tuesday September 22, 2020 7:36pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from hamsamwich

@kampgruppe- my problem is those vets looked disorganized and confused after a year with Gregg. That's he doesn't get his message from his mind to the players actions.

@lilshmike- it's very disingenuous to say since we aren't good enough anyway what's the point in all the fuss. If we aren't good enough anyway then why would doing something different be a problem.??? It seems like since we can't win the World Cup why try and be better then we currently are and be the best we can be? That's all anyone wants.

It does make a difference however that the coach is a system guy. So he's gonna pick based off of his system. And that's his prerogative. But if the best players don't fit the system we must play inferior players. Instead of a coach who molds what he does to the talent. If Gregg puts Tyler in his rightful spot as the CDM, then in my opinion he's making a concession. And he doesn't believe in it. In truth we may as well have another coach who believes in the players skill sets, not how they fit into a complicated system. That's been my consistent opinion all along. That's why it's a bad fit and why we could/should have tried other options. We settled without needing to.
You're misunderstanding my point...

I'm not saying, "we aren't good enough so who cares and whats the point in crying over it"...

What I'm saying is, "we aren't good enough because our pool (top to bottom) isn't good enough, and that has nothing to do with our manager".

We should always strive to be better and to improve. But the reality is that many fans either have no real clue as to how talented our pool truly is, and/or they have wildly unreasonable expectations as to how good we should actually be.

We are a strong CONCACAF team right now... not a team that is ready to challenge for a WC championship. We are still miles away from the teams that are at that level, the level where they should expect to challenge for and/or win a WC.

The whole reason I keep pointing this out is because everyone keeps complaining about the manager... when the fact remains that the manager has nothing to do with the fact that our player pool pails in comparison to that of the best teams in the world. When we are still debating over Zardes even so much as being considered to get a call-up for the national team... that is demonstrable proof of how far behind we are. And that has nothing to do with Berhalter... and no matter how many random kids who play in academies in Europe get called in, it wouldn't change that for us.

It is not a Berhalter/USSF issue... it is a player pool issue that people seem completely oblivious to.

When we have EVERYONE healthy and available for selection, we have a good starting 11 and a decent bench ready for a tournament. The problem, which has consistently played out for us over the last 18 months, is that if we have any injuries... then we have to resort to calling in MLS guys like Roldan and Baird and Lewis.

We have a fairly solid 20-23 man roster when everyone is available... but after that we simply lack quality players. The plus side for all of this, is that almost all of those 20-23 players are under the age of 23, so given they continue to develop, and assuming a few more young kids in those European academies pan out, then come 2026 we should have a serious squad ready to do big things.

i.e. Berhalter is pretty much doomed from the start with a good, young squad that is highly inexperienced on the international stage.He is basically overseeing a complete transition in both the pool and the core of the team. Its not like he took over and we had some awesome squad... when he took over we were pretty much starting from scratch with 75%+ of our squad and pool. That doesn't set anyone up for great success... however, it helps to set up the next cycle in 2026.

We should make it to the WC - and I agree that anything below top 2 in qualifying should be unacceptable - but those guys are largely going to be using 2022 as a stepping stone for (what should be) a big run in 2026.

Lilshmike
Post #306
Tuesday September 22, 2020 7:37pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from Know Nothing

Yeah, like the USSF while the house was falling down in 2018.
Yeah... that makes no sense. Nice try though.

Lilshmike
Post #307
Tuesday September 22, 2020 7:42pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
@hamsamwich

Bringing it back to Adams, he should be a major player for the team moving forward. Berhalter has claimed he will be a CM. He played one game at RB over a year ago. People still complain over that, with some going so far as to say that that act alone makes our manager completely disqualified from being manager... which is pretty ridiculous and actually stupid.

I'm not trying to defend the guy (although I know thats exactly what I'm doing). But certain things are legitimately outside of his control, and (injuries, lack of quality in the pool, etc.) and understanding that is critical. I'm not a huge fan of him, I think we could have (and should have) hired a guy earlier...

...but in the grand scheme of things, Berhalter being the manager or not, USSF hiring a manager earlier or not, in no way changes the fact that we lack quality depth in our pool. None of those guys are responsible for development and success of McKennie or Pulisic or Adams or Brooks or Weah... It just takes time, and over time more kids will emerge who are better and playing overseas. And it doesn't matter how many people complain about it on an internet forum over the next 2 years, that will not change in that time.

Lilshmike
Post #308
Tuesday September 22, 2020 7:52pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from Lilshmike

@hamsamwich

Bringing it back to Adams, he should be a major player for the team moving forward. Berhalter has claimed he will be a CM. He played one game at RB over a year ago. People still complain over that, with some going so far as to say that that act alone makes our manager completely disqualified from being manager... which is pretty ridiculous and actually stupid.

I'm not trying to defend the guy (although I know thats exactly what I'm doing). But certain things are legitimately outside of his control (injuries, lack of quality in the pool, etc.), and understanding that is critical. I'm not a huge fan of him, I think we could have (and should have) hired a guy earlier...

...but in the grand scheme of things, Berhalter being the manager or not, USSF hiring a manager earlier or not, in no way changes the fact that we lack quality depth in our pool. None of those guys are responsible for development and success of McKennie or Pulisic or Adams or Brooks or Weah... It just takes time, and over time more kids will emerge who are better and playing overseas. And it doesn't matter how many people complain about it on an internet forum over the next 2 years, that will not change in that time.


cudevil
Post #309
Tuesday September 22, 2020 8:59pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,105
Original post from Lilshmike

You're misunderstanding my point...

I'm not saying, "we aren't good enough so who cares and whats the point in crying over it"...

What I'm saying is, "we aren't good enough because our pool (top to bottom) isn't good enough, and that has nothing to do with our manager".

We should always strive to be better and to improve. But the reality is that many fans either have no real clue as to how talented our pool truly is, and/or they have wildly unreasonable expectations as to how good we should actually be.

We are a strong CONCACAF team right now... not a team that is ready to challenge for a WC championship. We are still miles away from the teams that are at that level, the level where they should expect to challenge for and/or win a WC.

The whole reason I keep pointing this out is because everyone keeps complaining about the manager... when the fact remains that the manager has nothing to do with the fact that our player pool pails in comparison to that of the best teams in the world. When we are still debating over Zardes even so much as being considered to get a call-up for the national team... that is demonstrable proof of how far behind we are. And that has nothing to do with Berhalter... and no matter how many random kids who play in academies in Europe get called in, it wouldn't change that for us.

It is not a Berhalter/USSF issue... it is a player pool issue that people seem completely oblivious to.

When we have EVERYONE healthy and available for selection, we have a good starting 11 and a decent bench ready for a tournament. The problem, which has consistently played out for us over the last 18 months, is that if we have any injuries... then we have to resort to calling in MLS guys like Roldan and Baird and Lewis.

We have a fairly solid 20-23 man roster when everyone is available... but after that we simply lack quality players. The plus side for all of this, is that almost all of those 20-23 players are under the age of 23, so given they continue to develop, and assuming a few more young kids in those European academies pan out, then come 2026 we should have a serious squad ready to do big things.

i.e. Berhalter is pretty much doomed from the start with a good, young squad that is highly inexperienced on the international stage.He is basically overseeing a complete transition in both the pool and the core of the team. Its not like he took over and we had some awesome squad... when he took over we were pretty much starting from scratch with 75%+ of our squad and pool. That doesn't set anyone up for great success... however, it helps to set up the next cycle in 2026.

We should make it to the WC - and I agree that anything below top 2 in qualifying should be unacceptable - but those guys are largely going to be using 2022 as a stepping stone for (what should be) a big run in 2026.


This entire dissertation is just one giant beating of a total straw man. No one-no one-is arguing that we should be competing for a WC now or that we can/will/should compete with France, Germany, Brazil, etc. etc. This is entirely a figment of your imagination.

The question is whether GB is attempting to expand and develop the player pool, as well as advance the quality of play based on the currently available players, with an eye towards longer term development. Given the number of dead enders he repeatedly calls in and that he continues to harp on a system that leads to serious questions as to whether said system matches our best players' talents, the early returns are not positive.

The fact is that after missing out on qualifying, there needed to be a complete re-think for the next cycle. The idea that we could simply rely on a more traditional approach to player selection should have been tossed. Relying solely on club minutes/form is fine when things are relatively healthy in terms of WC qualifying-but there are too many examples to name of guys that play well for clubs, but not the national set up, and vice versa.

So, instead of taking a more passive approach to re-structuring the team (i.e. allowing for some type of "natural" evolution), there should have been a heavy emphasis on fast-tracking U-23, U-20, and maybe the occasional U17 kids to the senior team. That might have meant taking some lumps in friendlies, Gold Cup, etc., but that would best prepare the pool for '22.

Sarachan was actually doing that, even if I had some complaints where it was apparent that he was playing for a result versus taking a developmental approach. I think it's a stretch to suggest that GB has done that.

And before you raise yet another straw man/red herring-it isn't about whether any specific younger player was called in. It's the macro level approach/philosophy that is clearly lacking.

Your position is that it isn't on the Nats to develop players. I can generally agree with that sentiment as long as we qualify for the WC and aren't getting outplayed by CONCACAF opponents not named Mexico or Costa Rica. Once that happens, priorities and methodologies need to change. Player development and plunging to the very depths of the player pool should have been the order of the day.

hamsamwich
Post #310
Tuesday September 22, 2020 9:19pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
How the player pool is used is the entirety of the debate/disagreement.

Know Nothing
Post #311
Wednesday September 23, 2020 1:04pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,830
Original post from Lilshmike

Yeah... that makes no sense. Nice try though.


Sure it does, you just don't want to admit it.

Original post from cudevil

And before you raise yet another straw man/red herring-it isn't about whether any specific younger player was called in. It's the macro level approach/philosophy that is clearly lacking.



@cudevil gets it.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #312
Wednesday September 23, 2020 1:16pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,062
Original post from Know Nothing

Sure it does, you just don't want to admit it.

@cudevil gets it.


Playing a little bit of devils advocate here but . . To be fair lets not forget that when GB took over nations league and WCQ were just around the corner. Covid has changed a lot. Yes Sarachan had the luxury of playing a bunch of young guys, he didn't have any meaningful matches to worry about either.

hamsamwich
Post #313
Wednesday September 23, 2020 2:11pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
They shouldn't have been "just around the corner". He was tabbed to be the guy and it took an extra year than it should have to bring him in. That's on the ISSF, but it's not an excuse for Gregg.

Lilshmike
Post #314
Wednesday September 23, 2020 3:01pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
@cudevil

Serious question...

What fringe euro guys specifically have not been called in who should have been? You claim my argument is a straw man... but who has not been called in under GGG who should have been (assuming they were healthy and available for selection), or was performing to a standard where not calling them in was indicative of some type of bias or poor judgement? Please, enlighten us.

Kamphgruppe
Michigan
Post #315
Wednesday September 23, 2020 3:38pm

Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts: 1,062
Original post from hamsamwich

They shouldn't have been "just around the corner". He was tabbed to be the guy and it took an extra year than it should have to bring him in. That's on the ISSF, but it's not an excuse for Gregg.


So what would you have done as head coach? Your just hired after the biggest fiasco in US Soccer history. Fans are angry and you have Nations league matches and wcq matches all in a few months. You're telling me you would have brought in a bunch of untested young players!

I can't fault GB for his early decisions. I am frustrated when he continues to bring in guys that have proven to be useless like Trapp, etc. I guess we really won't know until the November friendlies if he has moved on from that.

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