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Know Nothing
Post #256
Thursday September 17, 2020 7:22pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,830
I must say I am enjoying your debate.

Great point about Favre having faith in a young Reyna. It is Favres job to build his team and find the best talent available. I believe what is lost in Ham's point is that GGG has had ample time to sit back evaluate, and start building a team. Sarachan did all the heavy lifting and took a hit playing a lot of young unproven guys. Some showed great promise like Robinson, but his opportunities went away when GGG decided to further dredge the pool. I would question why he felt the need to rebuild again after Sarachan gave him the beginnings of a rebuild.

Keep up the good work Ham! Enjoy the Kool Aid @lilishmike

cudevil
Post #257
Thursday September 17, 2020 9:12pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,105
Original post from Samtom23

I think we are all really just waiting for the next roster to be announced to find out what really will be core players


Sure. I'm just not holding my breath. My personal guess is that GB uses the lost time as an excuse to call in most of the same guys that he's been calling in because of familiarity with "the system". I'll be happy to be surprised, though. The biggest "chance" he will take is Reyna, even though he's a no brainer.

Lilshmike
Post #258
Thursday September 17, 2020 9:23pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from cudevil

It's also a fact that Berhalter played Adams at that goofy ass hybrid RB position so that Bradley could be on the field, when Bradley wasn't part of the best 11. The fact that Adams played out of position for RB as well (dude is not a RB) doesn't justify Berhalter's decision.
Tyler Adamas has played once under Berhalter, against Ecuador. In that game he played at RB. Michael Bradley, although called in, did not start the game.

So, to clarify, that is not a fact and you are incorrect.

Since then, Berhalter has publicly stated that Adams is a CM. And again, since he has played it at RB for his club (more than once might I add), it seems as though Berhalter wasn't too far off in his early assessments. But regardless, I'm sorry... you're wrong.

Lilshmike
Post #259
Thursday September 17, 2020 9:34pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from hamsamwich

I'm not into falling into anything short sighted.... Did Gregg sign young Americans when he was managing in Scandinavia to help him succeed on the field? No. That was a long time ago wasn't it? In fact he's never signed young American players to help him succeed which was my point.

Also I don't have a problem with Roldan- he's a super competent American player, very reflective of the best of the MLS.... but if he's the only guy that plays "well" after a year in the system maybe we have a problem.

I didn't bring up injuries or any of that. Those are just excuses. He changed the roster from what sarachan had to tinker with some weird lineups featuring Lovitz only to now seemingly be returning to what Dave was already doing. Waiting for Olosunde, Moore and Green to return by the way. It's not out of the question to ask now: what could the national team look like if a proper coaching search had been done???

Since according to you @lilshmike (and I agree) that "players develop at their club". So why the Clarence Darrow or if you like Johnnie Cochran routine every time a criticism is lodged at Berhalter???
Are we talking about Berhalter the club manager, or the national team manager?

Again, bringing this full circle and back to your original statement about the following coaches doing the hard work for GGG...
Nagelsmann - Adams
Gaultier - Weah
Pirlo - McKennie
Favre - Reyna

Are you upset because these guys haven't been called in? I'm confused??

Upset because Weah and Adams haven't been called in more when they have been perpetually injured the last year and haven't been available for selection?

Upset for not calling in Reyna, after he cracked into the first team at Dortmund right before a global pandemic in which we have not had any international windows for player selection?

You're deflecting to other issues. I am clearly honing in on that statement in particular (other managers doing the hard work for Gregg) and calling it out for being ridiculous when you put everything in context (who was available for selection during windows, were they friendlies or competitive games, where were the games, etc.).

Again, everything I have stated is factual.

Lilshmike
Post #260
Thursday September 17, 2020 9:40pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from Know Nothing

I must say I am enjoying your debate.

Great point about Favre having faith in a young Reyna. It is Favres job to build his team and find the best talent available. I believe what is lost in Ham's point is that GGG has had ample time to sit back evaluate, and start building a team. Sarachan did all the heavy lifting and took a hit playing a lot of young unproven guys. Some showed great promise like Robinson, but his opportunities went away when GGG decided to further dredge the pool. I would question why he felt the need to rebuild again after Sarachan gave him the beginnings of a rebuild.

Keep up the good work Ham! Enjoy the Kool Aid @lilishmike
What Kool Aid am I sipping? Which one of my statements is wrong? What point did I make that wasn't rooted in some sort of fact?

That those players have either been called in, were going to be called in, or weren't due to injury? That clubs are responsible for developing players, not the national team? For calling out Ham over being mad at GGG for not calling in McKennie (when he has)? Playing Adams at RB in one game over a year ago and has since stated that he will play CM? For not calling in Weah (when he has been consistently injured)? For not calling in Reyna (when Reyna has only just recently broke into his senior team at club and GGG stated he would be called in next window, and this was pre-pandemic)?

I'm confused, where is the Kool Aid? Legitimately everything I am saying is spot on.

Scout92
Lone Star State(Gun State)
Post #261
Thursday September 17, 2020 10:22pm

Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts: 1,500
OOOHHHHH YEEEAAAAHHHH!!!

hamsamwich
Post #262
Thursday September 17, 2020 10:22pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 3,454
No. I said these guys should be celebrated for playing our guys (instead of a planets full of countries) while developing them, on teams that compete. You turned it into I was upset certain guys weren't called up. No. I never said that. I expanded on what you asked what the "hard work" was.

And instead of rebutting me - Andwer these questions:

1) did Gregg do the same as club manager? Why/why not?

2) should club managers be celebrated for bringing in our guys when there has long been at best a stigma and at worst an absolute bias from Europe about American players?

3) why do you feel the need to defend an amply compensated coach?..., one who is in a public job where criticism comes his way, is judged on his ability to lead and develop a program, and most importantly Is the face of US Soccer.

4) Would a larger than one candidate pool have helped find different coaches that may have a track record at club level of developing young players while winning? Is winning while developing even important?

cudevil
Post #263
Friday September 18, 2020 3:24am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,105
Original post from Lilshmike

Tyler Adamas has played once under Berhalter, against Ecuador. In that game he played at RB. Michael Bradley, although called in, did not start the game.

So, to clarify, that is not a fact and you are incorrect.

Since then, Berhalter has publicly stated that Adams is a CM. And again, since he has played it at RB for his club (more than once might I add), it seems as though Berhalter wasn't too far off in his early assessments. But regardless, I'm sorry... you're wrong.


You're right...he put Adams at RB to play Will Trapp...it's even worse.

I could care less that he played RB for his club. He isn't a RB (any more than McKennie should be a defender, even though he played center back and RB for Schalke).

Lilshmike
Post #264
Friday September 18, 2020 4:21pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from Scout92

OOOHHHHH YEEEAAAAHHHH!!!
Hahahaha great reference

Lilshmike
Post #265
Friday September 18, 2020 4:26pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from cudevil

You're right...he put Adams at RB to play Will Trapp...it's even worse.

I could care less that he played RB for his club. He isn't a RB (any more than McKennie should be a defender, even though he played center back and RB for Schalke).
And Trapp no longer plays. Something everyone wanted to see, it has happened, yet everyone still complains. Move on.

And yes, Adams is a CM. Berhalter has publicly stated he is a CM. So again, what is your point? Are you irritated that Berhalter hasn't been calling in Adams because Adams hasn't been available due to injury? Or is it that you have some notion that the next time he gets called in hes going to stuff him at RB... when the manager himself has stated that won't happen? Again, I'm confused?

cudevil
Post #266
Friday September 18, 2020 5:04pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,105
Original post from Lilshmike

And Trapp no longer plays. Something everyone wanted to see, it has happened, yet everyone still complains. Move on.

And yes, Adams is a CM. Berhalter has publicly stated he is a CM. So again, what is your point? Are you irritated that Berhalter hasn't been calling in Adams because Adams hasn't been available due to injury? Or is it that you have some notion that the next time he gets called in hes going to stuff him at RB... when the manager himself has stated that won't happen? Again, I'm confused?


It was stupid that Berhalter ever, once, played Adams in any position other than a 6 or 8. It was stupid that he did it for Trapp because Berhalter apparently wanted someone that could pick a pass-something that Adams can do as well as Trapp ever could. It was a dumb decision at the time. So dumb, in fact, that it 100% taints whether GB should ever be given the benefit of the doubt-particularly when he has continued to call in dead-enders subsequent to that.

Lilshmike
Post #267
Friday September 18, 2020 5:04pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from hamsamwich

No. I said these guys should be celebrated for playing our guys (instead of a planets full of countries) while developing them, on teams that compete. You turned it into I was upset certain guys weren't called up. No. I never said that. I expanded on what you asked what the "hard work" was.

And instead of rebutting me - Andwer these questions:

1) did Gregg do the same as club manager? Why/why not?

2) should club managers be celebrated for bringing in our guys when there has long been at best a stigma and at worst an absolute bias from Europe about American players?

3) why do you feel the need to defend an amply compensated coach?..., one who is in a public job where criticism comes his way, is judged on his ability to lead and develop a program, and most importantly Is the face of US Soccer.

4) Would a larger than one candidate pool have helped find different coaches that may have a track record at club level of developing young players while winning? Is winning while developing even important?
I'll answer each.

1) We are talking about Gregg the national team manager, not Gregg the club manager. So this is completely irrelevant. Managing a national team is completely different than a club team. They are not apples to apples. Done.

2) I agree that there is a bias against American players - particularly in England. Its bad there. That being said, its good to see managers bringing in and putting more faith in our younger players. This is something (more players overseas, and younger players getting shots in Europe) that will increase over time, but I see that as their job, and not the job of the national team manager. From that perspective, I don't see any of the club managers "doing the hard work for Gregg" when they are simply doing their job... and their job is completely independent from his as the USMNT manager. Obviously the more we have managers scouting, purchasing, and playing our guys overseas, it will inevitably help Gregg... but the two are mutually exclusive.

3) I totally agree that criticism should come when its due. Absolutely. I think there are things that GGG has done that deserve criticism, and rightly so. HOWEVER, what I will not do, refuse to do, and will call out people when they do... is blame or criticize someone for things that are outside of their control. Brooks, Miazga, Adams, Weah, Pulisic, McKennie, Antonee Robinson, Jozy, Fabian Johnson, I'm sure there are more than I can't remember at this exact moment... all of these guys have missed significant time the last 18 months due to injury. When your pool is thin to begin with, and you get hit with a ton of injuries at inopportune times... what are you really left with? Of course you're going to have to call in MLS guys who you are familiar with if you are trying to win a game. Thats not really Berhalter's fault... thats just crappy circumstance. And no... I will not fault the guy or complain about that. Throw in Reyna (which, for some reason, people are upset he hasn't been called in when he only just broke into his senior team before a global pandemic, and GGG has since said he will be called in next window) and Nagbe (who would have walked into our team, but his reluctance to play for the USMNT forces GGG's hand to play guys like Trapp and Roldan when Adams has been hurt, Morales spent some time on the shelf, and Williams completely fell off the face of the earth). I mean... come on guys. To get uptight over some of those things is just stupid and demonstrates that people either don't know what they're talking about, or just want to scapegoat the manager for any/all of our problems.

4) I will break this down into 2 points - expanding our coaching search, and developing talent. First - developing talent. It is not the job of the national team manager to develop talent. That is on the clubs. There can be some debate with the roles and whatnot, but at a macro level, thats not on the national team manager to do. You've agreed on this, so we're done here. Next - expanding our coaching search. Look, I agree it may have been good to look at more guys/interview them... but were you part of the back office meetings? No. Were any of us? No. We legitimately have no idea what was discussed. None whatsoever. But yet, everyone likes to armchair quarterback acting like they know everything that went down... when they are completely ignorant to how certain decisions were made. I wanted Tata Martino... but the reality is that he was never going to manage for us. He made it clear that he wasn't going to take our job. So... if I was an exec at US Soccer... why waste my time and resources chasing a guy who doesn't want the job? That would be pretty stupid on my part. People like to point to the whole "ItS bEcAuSe He DoEsNt SpEaK fLuEnT eNgLiSh" crap. No... thats not why. He didn't want the job because Mexico wanted him and was offering him to be the highest paid national team manager in the world. Of course he would take that. Hes more of a cultural fit with that national team, and hes paid more. Hard to beat that... and its best (as an exec for US Soccer) to not waste time on that guy and run the risk of public humiliation by publicly chasing someone, watching that person go to your most hated rival, then signing a guy who is percieved as the "backup" choice.

Do I think we could have, and should have, interviewed more candidates? Yes. But we don't know how many people were really in the running for the job, and to be frank, Gregg was one of the best options we could really get at the time we were getting. Could we have done better? Sure, but its not like he was a "bad" hire. Your have to put everything in context. And for the record... Gregg speaks fluent English, Spanish, German, and Dutch. Hard to find a guy who checks all those boxes... especially since we have a number of dual nationals who speak all of those languages as their native tongue. So... maybe he wasn't a terrible fit after all? Food for thought there.

Lilshmike
Post #268
Friday September 18, 2020 5:12pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 1,510
Original post from cudevil

It was stupid that Berhalter ever, once, played Adams in any position other than a 6 or 8. It was stupid that he did it for Trapp because Berhalter apparently wanted someone that could pick a pass-something that Adams can do as well as Trapp ever could. It was a dumb decision at the time. So dumb, in fact, that it 100% taints whether GB should ever be given the benefit of the doubt-particularly when he has continued to call in dead-enders subsequent to that.
So then are you saying that you're in favor of never experimenting with a lineup? Not in favor of trying something during a friendly?

Again, I'm confused, because so many people (yourself included) have claimed he needs to call in certain guys to give them a shot and experiment and see what happens when giving guys a chance... yet you're burning him for doing that exact same thing in one of his first games in charge (where we won)...

I'm not defending Trapp and saying he should get called in... but I mean, come on. Find something else because thats both dumb and hypocritical.

"Gregg tried something experimental one time in a friendly where we won, with one player in particular, and because of that he can never be looked at the same... oh yeah, and lets call up some random reserve team kid on a youth team in Europe and give him a shot to experiment, and if GGG doesn't call him then hes an idiot"...

Like... thats actually stupid.

whyneverme
Post #269
Friday September 18, 2020 5:48pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 94
Original post from Lilshmike

So then are you saying that you're in favor of never experimenting with a lineup? Not in favor of trying something during a friendly?

Again, I'm confused, because so many people (yourself included) have claimed he needs to call in certain guys to give them a shot and experiment and see what happens when giving guys a chance... yet you're burning him for doing that exact same thing in one of his first games in charge (where we won)...

I'm not defending Trapp and saying he should get called in... but I mean, come on. Find something else because thats both dumb and hypocritical.

"Gregg tried something experimental one time in a friendly where we won, with one player in particular, and because of that he can never be looked at the same... oh yeah, and lets call up some random reserve team kid on a youth team in Europe and give him a shot to experiment, and if GGG doesn't call him then hes an idiot"...

Like... thats actually stupid.


To add on here... If my memory is correct, we didn't really have a solid right back at the time either because Dest hadn't yet committed, so I can totally understand why one might take a flyer to experiment in this game

Spank
661
Post #270
Friday September 18, 2020 6:05pm

Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts: 142
Original post from whyneverme

To add on here... If my memory is correct, we didn't really have a solid right back at the time either because Dest hadn't yet committed, so I can totally understand why one might take a flyer to experiment in this game


If my memory serves me right, I'm pretty sure we had Yedlin at the time. We actually still have Yedlin.

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