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Lilshmike
Post #121
Wednesday November 7, 2018 7:51pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 820
@Know Nothing

Not sure how I'm not proving myself wrong on anything? And yes, it could. And a lot of that comes down to...? Right, player salaries. Cash is king my friend. This is a job, and players (a lot of times driven by their agents) typically tend to go to the highest bidder. Their careers are limited, so they aim to maximize their earnings while they can.

As far as players that the MLS has right now, its leaps and bounds above where it was about 3 or so years ago. If you don't pay attention to the league, then you wouldn't have a clue. Here is a list of some guys many would consider "top-talent" currently in the league:
  • Miguel Almiron
  • Josef Martinez
  • Hector Villalba
  • Ezequiel Barco
  • Diego Rossi
  • Eduard Atuesta
  • Andre Horta
  • Felipe Gutierrez
  • Kaku
Every guy I mentioned is 25 or younger. Almost all either currently play for the youth or senior national team for their country. Paraguay, Chile, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay. Notice that this list doesn't include names like Vela, the Dos Santos bros, Raul Ruidiaz, Laurent Ciman, etc. Those guys are low hanging fruit. No Rooney (who although is past it is still a good player) nor Ibrahimovic (who, lets face it, could start at almost any team in the world he wanted with the exception of maybe 15 clubs or so) nor van der Wiel. I left off the aging players for reasons that are self explanatory.

There is an entire pool of talent from South America who, spoiler alert, face many of the same obstacles to playing in Europe as players in the USA do. MLS, although has historically carried the reputation of being a "retirement league", is moving towards a league feeding off top South American youth prospects - paying them higher salaries than they are making in their home countries and offering them a higher quality of life. This has all taken place in the last like 18 months, and will likely continue unless the rules for DP slots change.

Anyone who does not see or understand this either doesn't pay attention to whats going on, doesn't watch the league, or doesn't really get it.

Is MLS the same quality as the Prem? No. But I will continue to defend the assertion being accurate that the league, generally speaking, it is at least on par with the Championship. And Atlanta, on paper, is of the same quality with respect to starting lineups as the teams I mentioned in the Prem.

Do some research on the guys I listed, look at their highlights, whatever it is you do to analyze players. Guaranteed you will be surprised. Not trying to be a big MLS defender here, but it is genuinely better than most realize and understand. And when comparing players/quality from other leagues, we should attempt to put that into perspective.

Lilshmike
Post #122
Wednesday November 7, 2018 7:53pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 820
Original post from hamsamwich

I'm not a Trapp guy but he hasn't "been awful every game". Morales was given his chance by Jurgen Klinsmann himself, who for sure knows German players when he sees one. There's no difference in Brooks or Johnson or Morales etc they are all Germericans. Just because you think he deserves another shot doesn't mean this is some earth shattering call. It's not Benzema kicked off the France team, it's not Naingolan being left out of the World Cup for Belgium. It's none of those things. Im not a fan of USSF but they have people more qualified than any of us following the player pool and in their opinion the guy isn't good enough. He wasn't last I saw him- and I'm a fan of his style. Morales is a fringy veteran and that is what it is. If anything you should want the best young MLS players to get a platform to play and get a move to a place that will help them get better. Fringe dual national type players are never going to make or break the program, just give it a small bump from time to time. I personally don't see Morales as a Thomas Dooley or Jermaine Jones or John Brooks. To use your logic, if he was that good someone would have noticed by now not relegation fodder. For perspective, if Adams get the move many think, our top 3 midfielders would be playing for better teams than have ever offered Morales a contract (Motales is old by European standards). Why is every roster call up a referendum on a fringe player who isn't tearing up trees. I disagree on gall but at least he does stuff every other week to make you think he could improve the usmnt- what has Morales done besides run around and play defense for shitty teams??? We already have guys for that. Say what you want about Trapp (I may agree) but he can pass Morales off the park and USA are trying to play better. Makes sense to me.
Good points

Know Nothing
Post #123
Wednesday November 7, 2018 8:09pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,439
@hamsamwich

I agree Morales has not taken his opportunity...but you could also say he played no worse than Trapp has. In my estimation he has played one eye catching pass (the one to Saief back in March or so in the 1-0 win).

As you say he can pass Morales off the Park. But we have players that are not being given a chance like Scott that if given the chance could show they can pass Trapp off the the park.

I know you will say Scott is more of an attacking midfielder...and he probably does prefer that role. But he has played in a holding type role as well and he is decent in a tackle and has good tactical awareness.

Know Nothing
Post #124
Wednesday November 7, 2018 8:33pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,439
@lilshmike

But you are judging Atlanta by what they have done against the rest of MLS while at the same time judging Burnley, Huddersfield, and Fulham by what they have done against the Premier League. Please explain how this is a fair comparison?

I also believe you are placing too much emphasis on individual skills and not taking into account tactical awareness. On paper, the Arsenal sides of the last few years had more talent than a few of the teams that finished above them, but they failed to win the league.

Who knows about the Championship comparison, but I think that may also be a stretch. It is a very physical league.

This is my final post on this matter (queue giant sigh of relief).

Lilshmike
Post #125
Wednesday November 7, 2018 9:24pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 820
Original post from Know Nothing

@lilshmike

But you are judging Atlanta by what they have done against the rest of MLS while at the same time judging Burnley, Huddersfield, and Fulham by what they have done against the Premier League. Please explain how this is a fair comparison?

I also believe you are placing too much emphasis on individual skills and not taking into account tactical awareness. On paper, the Arsenal sides of the last few years had more talent than a few of the teams that finished above them, but they failed to win the league.

Who knows about the Championship comparison, but I think that may also be a stretch. It is a very physical league.

This is my final post on this matter (queue giant sigh of relief).
You're clearly an Arsenal fan haha.

My comparison is fair. I never said anything about Atlanta comparing them against their MLS counterparts or performance. I stated that on paper they have a team/starting lineup of the same caliber of the teams I mentioned. I never made a single point, assertion, or statement judging any team by what they have done in their league. Quote me if you'd like... you won't find anything. Please try not to put words in my mouth like bjelks.

I'll turn the tables. If you'd be willing to explain, please detail how my assessment is inaccurate?

I am at least giving examples, citing reasons, bringing up actual players, etc. I do it every time too. I have yet to see anyone legitimately explain how the Championship or 2 Bundesliga are better than MLS or how any of the teams/players in those league would compare to certain MLS teams/players. Its always "how can you prove MLS is as good as X league", never "I can prove that X league is better than MLS because..."

The only arguments that I have ever heard from anyone is pro/rel and Champions League. But again, that's dumb because the existence of pro/rel does not by default define the quality of teams or make a team or league better than another. And also, yeah, Champions League is definitely noteworthy, but it does not by default define how good a league is - especially when the top league in virtually every country in Europe has a shot at sending a team to it. Is the Azerbaijan Premier League better than MLS because Qarabag goes to Champions League? No.

hamsamwich
Post #126
Wednesday November 7, 2018 10:23pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,743
@knownothing- I'm all for giving everyone a chance. I'd like to see McKennie and Adams get a chance to play that position instead of Trapp whose athleticism is in question. Soccerwise he is fine but does he have the physical ability for the modern game??

It'll be interesting to see what the coach does with the all the players at his disposal. One thing is clear: these guys have a chance to prove themselves against England and Italy- for better or worse. A few of our players have much to gain with not much to lose out there.

Scott, Holmes, Hyndman. There are more names than that but right now it would be throwing names at a wall and hoping they stick. Hire a damn coach already.

Know Nothing
Post #127
Wednesday November 7, 2018 10:50pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,439
Original post from Lilshmike

You're clearly an Arsenal fan haha.



Far from it. My first match seen overseas was at Stamford Bridge in 1999. I am just using Arsenal as an example that talent alone is not an indicator of success. Tactics and mettle do play some part.

I will break my promise.

The speed of play in the Premier League, and even the Championship, is much faster than MLS. You can see it in the play of Trapp at the international level. He is too ponderous with the ball. He is not used to players pressing him quickly to the point the only safe option available to him is the pass back. This is indicative of most MLS players. Yes, there are more giveaways in the PL and Championship, but that is usually a result of the pressure causing a player to play it safe downfield.

Teams like Atlanta look much better in possession because the default in MLS is to back up and absorb pressure. The game in the midfield from the matches I have seen is much more pedestrian. Some of it it because they play in the summer heat, but that is only one factor.

The pitch would also be a factor. How many artificial fields are there in MLS? Makes for a truer bounce and better traction. Atlanta also plays in a dome. Matches in February?

Lilshmike
Post #128
Wednesday November 7, 2018 11:54pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 820
@Know Nothing

I laughed at the Arsenal point. I have a number of Gooner friends, and I always have that debate with them. For the record, I don't really think any Arsenal player is cracking the starting lineup of any top 6 team other than Ozil, Laca and Auba. Even then, depends on what team, and what position they would play in. Maybe Leno as well.

Fair points, but I wouldn't say that artificial turf helps makes a "truer" bounce. It actually makes it bouncier (which is somewhat unrealistic) and slows the ball down. And speaking from experience, field turf actually helps you run a bit fast. Slower ball, faster running, double negative. Not much of a factor. There are a number of European teams that play on turf too, just non in England.

A lot of teams play a lot of different styles. For example, Burnley sits back and just lets teams attack. Thats why they get hammered most games. Have you watched Atlanta? They play fast... very fast. The speed of play (by which I mean the ball) in the Prem is definitely faster than MLS. Not sure if I feel the same way about the Championship.

hamsamwich
Post #129
Thursday November 8, 2018 12:48am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,743
I'd say both the championship and MLS have their haves and have-nots. For every Atlanta, NYRB and LAFC there are your Chicago, San Jose and Colorado squads. Just like Boro or Derby vs Rotherham or Ipswich. MLS has gotten a lot better but you get the sense from watching it that the players are jumbled together. There is no "MLS level" so to speak the same way there is a "Championship level" player. For every Almiron there are plenty of college washouts mixed in. The coaching in MLS had gotten better and there is more money to throw around. But I wouldn't say it is the equivalent of the championship - it's a very different league in every way.

I would bet on Duane Holmes ripping up MLS. Not sure that's gonna happen in the championship the way it did in league one. Which is another "level" down. "MLS level" player on the other hand doesn't really exist.

Know Nothing
Post #130
Thursday November 8, 2018 3:37pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,439
Gareth Southgate at his news conference...

"This fixture from my point of view is to look at some players I need to see. We then have the game with Croatia. Everyone knows the importance of that game to us and so I want to protect that squad as much as possible in the first game."

So as expected we will see their fringe players

hamsamwich
Post #131
Thursday November 8, 2018 4:04pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,743
Original post from Know Nothing

Gareth Southgate at his news conference...

"This fixture from my point of view is to look at some players I need to see. We then have the game with Croatia. Everyone knows the importance of that game to us and so I want to protect that squad as much as possible in the first game."

So as expected we will see their fringe players
But see we've been arguing about our fringe players... englands fringe players are a step and a half above ours. The difference between Ross Barkley and Marky Delgado for example is vast. I'm looking for some of our guys to show in a big atmosphere and make a name for themselves rather than some specific formation or tactic. Show the USA fans you want to play on the biggest stage and play with passion. The game itself will be a big jumble. Maybe Robinson, CCV get to start as well as a side note.

hamsamwich
Post #132
Thursday November 8, 2018 6:13pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,743
The England squad is stacked. This is their full team.

Know Nothing
Post #133
Thursday November 8, 2018 6:46pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,439
Original post from hamsamwich

The England squad is stacked. This is their full team.


Yes it is, but I doubt we will see the likes of Kane, Sterling, Alli.

We would kill to have the over the hill version of Rooney to call upon.

hamsamwich
Post #134
Thursday November 8, 2018 7:50pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,743
I agree we will get their second tier (featuring a guy in sancho who is ahead of/equal to our best player Pulisic) but Loftus-Cheek, Barkley, Winks etc will give us problems.

I actually think the game will be action packed, it's on our guys to be up for the occasion of Wembley and trying to match the English in 50/50 situations. Their quality is much higher and for our guys it's about proving themselves to Euro scouts. With no coach yet, there's nothing else for the players to do.

EKneezy
Atlanta
Post #135
Thursday November 8, 2018 8:20pm

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 3,007
Original post from hamsamwich

I agree we will get their second tier (featuring a guy in sancho who is ahead of/equal to our best player Pulisic) but Loftus-Cheek, Barkley, Winks etc will give us problems.

I actually think the game will be action packed, it's on our guys to be up for the occasion of Wembley and trying to match the English in 50/50 situations. Their quality is much higher and for our guys it's about proving themselves to Euro scouts. With no coach yet, there's nothing else for the players to do.


Perfect game for Adams( unless Leipzig comes calling) and others. Im excited. We havent played England in 8 years it should be a fun match.

I know Bristol City came sniffing around at Steffen but a good performance could really skyrocket him to even the Premier League. The January transfer market is around the corner.

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