RECAPS
EXTRA TIME
YANKS ABROAD LOCKER ROOM
 
Know Nothing
Post #346
Monday November 26, 2018 4:22pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Lilshmike

You (and many others) want to talk about the European model. Point blank - European teams follow this model. They do not call in you and reserve team players. They do not call in guys who are "promising" but have yet to break the first team. They call in players who are getting first team minutes. And if players are not - tough. Its on the player to prove to the national team that they are good enough.

Talent, first team minutes at the club level, and national team call-ups all go hand in hand.
If we want to win the WC, why not follow the model of the nations who have accomplished that? Nations who have won the WC do not follow the model you are suggesting. Sorry, they just don't.

If you would like to fact check me or find any reputable or example that counters my statements, I would be more than happy to see it. But as of now, sorry, your argument is a farce.


As A parting shot...I never spoke of the European "model", only of players receiving better training at a meaningful age and better mentoring than they can get at home.

And I give a list of players that constituted a WC roster and yet only one or two were playing first team minutes in a top league:

GK Tony Meola Virginia Cavaliers
DF Steve Trittschuh Tampa Bay Rowdies
DF John Doyle S.F. Bay Blackhawks
DF Jimmy Banks Milwaukee Wave
DF Mike Windischmann (c) Albany Capitals
MF John Harkes Albany Capitals
MF Tab Ramos Figueres
DF Brian Bliss Albany Capitals
FW Christopher Sullivan Győri
FW Peter Vermes Volendam
FW Eric Wynalda S.F. Bay Blackhawks
DF Paul Krumpe Real Santa Barbara
FW Eric Eichmann Fort Lauderdale Strikers
MF John Stollmeyer Washington Stars
DF Desmond Armstrong Baltimore Blast
FW Bruce Murray Washington Stars
DF Marcelo Balboa San Diego Sockers
GK Kasey Keller Portland Timbers
MF Chris Henderson UCLA Bruins
MF Paul Caligiuri SV Meppen
MF Neil Covone Wake Forest Demon Deacons
GK David Vanole Los Angeles Heat

Granted, most never reached the upper levels of the soccer world, but together as a team they proved that the right set of players in the right conditions can accomplish anything. It is just a matter of finding the players.

Another player playing "reserve" matches would be Jordan Morris. He was getting called while in Stanford...only allowed to legitimately train with his team part time. So there is recent precedent for such a call up...a call up from a coach that grew up in the European model but knew that thinking outside the box was necessary.

stoked3
Ft Lauderdale, FL
Post #347
Tuesday November 27, 2018 4:24am

Joined Oct 2014
Total Posts: 252
Original post from Lilshmike

As I said, certainly there are exceptions, but it shouldn't be commonplace. Has Mexico won the World Cup? No.

And yes, certainly every player is different with respect to what motivates them. But again, find a reputable source/player who thinks that the WC is not the pinnacle of soccer.

With respect to Parks, who cares? High motivation means nothing if a player is not good enough. Look at Marc Pelosi. Gedion Zelalem. People said the same about Freddy Adu. Do not mix up motivation with talent. Yes, although they may cross when it comes to player development, those are still two completely different things.

MLS is not the "easy" route as you, bjelks, blaise, and others keep promoting. There are factors that lead a player to choose MLS that are far beyond that statement. Again, that is a farce, it is low hanging fruit, demonstrates a lack of understanding in the entire debate over the topic of players playing overseas, and its throwing the monopoly board around the room when you have no better explanation as to why someone plays where they play.

Julian Green is from Germany. He plays in Germany.
CCV is from England. He plays in England.
Dest is from the Netherlands. He plays in the Netherlands.
Tyler Adam's is from the USA. He plays in the USA.

I could go on, but I wont. There are a number of factors that contribute to players going to other nations and playing vs staying at home. Do some research on the topic.

Also, the example of Odegaard was poor because it was inaccurate. Not only that, but what has he been doing recently? He practically fell into obscurity. Hes getting things back on track a little bit, but that's one of the problems with promoting young kids before they've really done anything.

Not only that, but do you want players to be "good enough like Gio was? Or do you want them to realize their full potential? The answer to that is pretty obvious.

Harry Wilson, sure. You could throw out a few more examples with lower to mid level national teams, but none are world powers. None are very good. Again, there are exceptions to the rule, but it is not commonplace for any respectable national team, let alone WC winning caliber, to call up reserve and youth players who are not playing first team football. It just isn't.

If you guys want to follow the European model so bad, then hop on board. What I'm saying is what the best European nations do.


In principle I agree with your argument, however reality is we are not on par with Euro Teams in terms of depth, so we do not have the luxury as Euro teams with whom we call in. MLS is referred to as easy bc of guaranteed spots. the Top 4 mls clubs could play lower level premier teams for a couple weeks until an injury or two happened, the issue is once you get out of the top 11 in most of the teams (outside of maybe atlanta) there is no depth due to salary restrictions. So younger players do not need to worry week in and out about their position. Overseas you need to excel in practice day by day just to have a chance that mentality is not instilled in mls. So inherently a reserve team overseas has better and more intense daily training. In your above you mention players playing where they live-the issue is they live in areas where there are solid leagues. There are many factors why US players can't leave mls, that is a separate topic on its own. But what most of us on this site is saying is that a younger players shows promise in mls push yourself and try a move don't settle for mls.

I am all for bringing in any player (for now) whom has shown realistic promise until we get to the point where we have 3 viable contenders for each position, then we can restrict call ups to who is starting and or in form from the best league. But this model of bringing only 1st team guys in will always slant towards mls b.c trap, bradley, jozy, wondo, will always have a starting spot- and guys who are trying to break into better clubs overseas with better, sometime world class players, will be deemed not worthy b.c they are not getting mins. That is a total oversight and we will not progress. We need guys who are testing themselves against the best and should not be penalized if they are not playing as much as mls guys. The better player should get called in, not who is getting the most mins- I used Green vs Wondo argument before-same could be used with Sargent, Weah etc for now. Again once we start qualifying ideal we would have built a solid 35 players to pick from. but for now we are just not on par with top programs
Stoked
Know Nothing
Post #348
Tuesday November 27, 2018 10:09pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Lilshmike

USSF made it a point to look at younger talent during this past year while we had no competitive games.



So it was alright to call a reserve in Sargent over Jozy but, as you argue, not the right time to look at other reserves with equally interesting pedigrees?

Lilshmike
Post #349
Tuesday November 27, 2018 10:59pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

So it was alright to call a reserve in Sargent over Jozy but, as you argue, not the right time to look at other reserves with equally interesting pedigrees?
One, this comment is posted out of context, and incorrectly in the wrong thread. Here is a link to the thread and page you are referring to:

http://locker.yanks-abroad.com/?mode=topics&t...

Here is the exact quote:
Original post from Lilshmike

It was made clear by the powers that be in the USSF that both Bradley and Jozy are still in the picture moving forward. They made it a point to look at younger talent during this past year while we had no competitive games. Also, Jozy has been injured and was actually called in to one of the camps but had to pull out.
...
With respect to your question:

"So it was alright to call a reserve in Sargent over Jozy but, as you argue, not the right time to look at other reserves with equally interesting pedigrees?"

First, I never argued for the USSF and their plan for player selections over the past year. I only stated that they made it a point to look at younger players over this past year.

Second, I never once said that it was alright to look at Sargent. Actually, I have consistently said the complete opposite. Not only that, but I think that there are a number of guys who were called in who didn't deserve it and think that others should have gotten a look instead of them.

Not sure what your point is? Mine has always been the same with respect to player selections. Look back and fact check me if you'd like, and try not to put words in my mouth.

Know Nothing
Post #350
Wednesday November 28, 2018 4:05am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Perhaps I should change my name to Shrek?

Seemed to me by your statement about going younger you were giving the USSF tacit approval of their plan, which in turn contradicts what you have said on here. That is why I believe it to be in context. Perhaps I am wrong?

And while it was not the direct quote and from a different thread, the "they" was the USSF and was still accurate.

Lilshmike
Post #351
Wednesday November 28, 2018 5:08am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

Perhaps I should change my name to Shrek?

Seemed to me by your statement about going younger you were giving the USSF tacit approval of their plan, which in turn contradicts what you have said on here. That is why I believe it to be in context. Perhaps I am wrong?

And while it was not the direct quote and from a different thread, the "they" was the USSF and was still accurate.
Fair enough. But yes, unfortunately you're mistaken.

I wasn't endorsing or giving approval for anything from USSF, merely stating that they made it a point to bring in younger players this past year. That's directly from the horse's mouth - and quite clear based on player selections (generally speaking).

I'm all for looking at younger players, and I have said it many times... if they're getting first team minutes at a club in a league that is as good or better than MLS.

I think Sarachan (broadly speaking) did a decent job of calling in some younger guys and taking a look at/giving caps to younger/newer players. There were a few things I didnt like though - which might be a topic for another thread. But I'd spitball and say that I had no issues with about 80% of player selections over the last year. This is independent of, and not to be confused with, any feelings I have over lineups, formations, tactics, etc.

db707
Post #352
Wednesday November 28, 2018 10:02am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 723
My biggest issue remains with guys, of whatever age, being called in while riding the bench at their clubs. Young players, taking a look at them once or twice, particularly as we build an Olympic roster, I have no issue. A club like PSG, ok, I understand bending a bit there. But guys like CCV and Moore not playing for Swansea and Reus respectively, who are already on loan and thus have been deemed not good enough for two first teams, guys whose minutes are diminishing being called up regularly, that I take issue with. Merely existing on a European team's roster shouldn't be good enough to get you regular call-ups to the senior national team.

Lilshmike
Post #353
Wednesday November 28, 2018 1:11pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from db707

My biggest issue remains with guys, of whatever age, being called in while riding the bench at their clubs. Young players, taking a look at them once or twice, particularly as we build an Olympic roster, I have no issue. A club like PSG, ok, I understand bending a bit there. But guys like CCV and Moore not playing for Swansea and Reus respectively, who are already on loan and thus have been deemed not good enough for two first teams, guys whose minutes are diminishing being called up regularly, that I take issue with. Merely existing on a European team's roster shouldn't be good enough to get you regular call-ups to the senior national team.
Exactly

blaise213
Post #354
Thursday November 29, 2018 8:01am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,710
Original post from db707

My biggest issue remains with guys, of whatever age, being called in while riding the bench at their clubs. Young players, taking a look at them once or twice, particularly as we build an Olympic roster, I have no issue. A club like PSG, ok, I understand bending a bit there. But guys like CCV and Moore not playing for Swansea and Reus respectively, who are already on loan and thus have been deemed not good enough for two first teams, guys whose minutes are diminishing being called up regularly, that I take issue with. Merely existing on a European team's roster shouldn't be good enough to get you regular call-ups to the senior national team.


Better them than the MLS agenda to call up mediocre players

Everyone knows Will Trapp sucks but yet still gets a call up ???

blaise213
Post #355
Thursday November 29, 2018 10:06am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,710
Original post from db707

My biggest issue remains with guys, of whatever age, being called in while riding the bench at their clubs. Young players, taking a look at them once or twice, particularly as we build an Olympic roster, I have no issue. A club like PSG, ok, I understand bending a bit there. But guys like CCV and Moore not playing for Swansea and Reus respectively, who are already on loan and thus have been deemed not good enough for two first teams, guys whose minutes are diminishing being called up regularly, that I take issue with. Merely existing on a European team's roster shouldn't be good enough to get you regular call-ups to the senior national team.


NBA analogy: I'd rather have a guy on the bench in Europe (NBA) than call up a player starting in the NBA D-League (MLS)

db707
Post #356
Thursday November 29, 2018 10:11am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 723
Original post from blaise213

Better them than the MLS agenda to call up mediocre players

Everyone knows Will Trapp sucks but yet still gets a call up ???


Newsflash, blaise: CCV and Moore are mediocre players. Almost everyone in our pool is mediocre by top international standards. All I am saying is let's call the mediocre players who are in form and playing rather than the ones who are lacking game action and have done nothing to merit being called up.

db707
Post #357
Thursday November 29, 2018 10:45am

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 723
Original post from blaise213

NBA analogy: I'd rather have a guy on the bench in Europe (NBA) than call up a player starting in the NBA D-League (MLS)


Poor analogy in this case, CCV and Moore are in second tier leagues on the bench. All of Europe isn't equivalent to the NBA, only top leagues and clubs.

hamsamwich
Post #358
Thursday November 29, 2018 2:51pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,768
I'd rather have a guy tearing it up in the D-League (Europe soccer 2nd tier where everyone is technically gifted and knows the game from birth) than Eurobasket (equivalent to MLS basically: some top tier talents, middle of the road guys, and then players who would look out of place at an NBA practice let alone a D-League game. Or even high level college ball.

hamsamwich
Post #359
Thursday November 29, 2018 2:53pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,768
Let's keep it to soccer though.... Would it have made a difference to have a coach with a plan? I say yes. The players played worse than the sum of their parts.

The parts however need an upgrade, right now we aren't running a 67 chevy it's more like a rusty Buick.

Know Nothing
Post #360
Thursday November 29, 2018 4:23pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
I am not a gamer but am curious what a dispassionate computer simulation would do with this question.

Take a team of MLS players with less than 15 caps (Camp Cupcake) and play it against a European based team of players with less than 10 caps (excluding Weah and Sargent) and not playing first team soccer in a top league

So my Euro team would be something like...

Horvath
Moore, EPB, CCV, Robinson
Parks, Scott
Gall Akele Gyau
Novakovich

I will leave someone that knows MLS to choose a team on that criteria

Page 24 of 25
«« First « Previous 19 20 21 22 23 24 25  Next »

The final stretch of the English league season is upon us, with several Americans on the verge of relegation with their teams.
RECENT POSTS
Tale of Two Young Yanks in Europe
Wagner Nears Premier League Goal
YA lineup prediction vs. T&T
vom Steeg lands at Fortuna