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blaise213
Post #331
Friday November 23, 2018 7:38pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 2,710
Original post from Lilshmike

The guys you mentioned should not have been called in until they crack their first team.

Also, just because some random guy on Twitter compares Scott to de Jong doesn't mean anything. Fake news.

And here's a hot take... if we keep giving call ups to reserve team players and youth kids who haven't really done or proven anything, then how does that drive them to continue to succeed in their profession?


Damn you guys need to get paid for all this effort. I'm gonna back a point bjelks brought up that a lot of these reverse sides our youth players are playing in (Europe) could beat most of the MLS teams. There's too much over value in playing for MLS. Werder Bremem U-23 would beat a lot of MLS teams.

Know Nothing
Post #332
Friday November 23, 2018 8:27pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from blaise213

Damn you guys need to get paid for all this effort. I'm gonna back a point bjelks brought up that a lot of these reverse sides our youth players are playing in (Europe) could beat most of the MLS teams. There's too much over value in playing for MLS. Werder Bremem U-23 would beat a lot of MLS teams.


Exactly.

We want them to get first team minutes, but if they were to return or move to MLS we would in turn consider them failures and taking the easy way out.

Lilshmike
Post #333
Sunday November 25, 2018 3:12pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

Sorry, still don't see it. While you lay out an argument well, it proves nothing and quite frankly is a farce. Your argument seems to that playing for the national team is the pinnacle of a players career. If that was the ultimate goal, why would anyone go overseas to train?
The pinnacle of any players career is playing in the World Cup. In order to play in the World Cup, one must play for the national team. Therefore, yes, the pinnacle of a players career is playing for their national team (assuming that national has the ability to qualify for and compete in the WC).

I would like for you to find any player who disagrees. Outside of Carlos Vela, I highly doubt you will find anyone. The only players who legitimately might say otherwise are those who have already featured for their national teams, played in a WC, and retire from national team duty to focus on a club career.
Original post from Know Nothing

You talk about competitive drive...the need to improve. For Parks, Akale, Holmes and Scott, they need to be good week in week out or they will be passed by by someone younger and hungrier and will ride the pine in the reserves and will cease to train with the first team. Getting a call to the national team for these guys would be just another accomplishment while the goal will ultimately be a spot on the first team. That is what drives them and what should drive them.
Yes, with your first statement you are agreeing with my point. If they don't perform and others at their clubs are better, they need to prove that they are good enough or get passed by someone younger and hungrier.

Again, the ultimate goal is to get to the WC. Again, find a player who says otherwise. I would love to know what prominent professional player says otherwise (with the exception of players who have a national team that has no chance of qualifying).

The problem here is with your next statements. "Getting a call to the national team would just be another accomplishment while the goal will ultimately be a spot on the first team". Hmm... how about this, you don't get that accomplishment unless you break into the first team to begin with. Disagree if you want, but I don't view playing for the national team and representing your country as "just another accomplishment". It is a privilege that should be reserved for those who have earned it. And in order to earn it, you should bare minimum be breaking into the first team at your club team.

You, like most others on this site, lack real world examples when making these claims. So... here is one for you - Gio Dos Santos. Mexico started promoting him when he was young and in the Barcelona academy. He left Barcelona to go to Tottenham, and began a career of bouncing around clubs.

There was a time when Gio was honestly on par if not better than Modric when he was at Tottenham. But he never played for them. Want to know why? Consensus at the time was that he had an attitude problem. He thought that because he was a product of La Masia that he was better than everyone else. He was a Mexico starter at the WC, played in every game, outperformed his counterparts at club level, and was voted runner up for young player of the tournament. He didn't really care for "pushing himself" or have the "drive" for first team minutes at Tottenham. The national team accolades were not just "another accomplishment". They were THE accomplishment. And Mexico fueled it.

Is Gio a good player? Yes, absolutely. But considering what his trajectory was, the potential he once had, he has failed to realize it. Why? Well, in part due to him being a national team regular with Mexico and thinking that he was better than others around him as a result. Maybe Mexico should have shown him some tough love.

This is only one example, and I could list off countless examples of US players who we tried promoted/hyped when they were young, only to have them not pan out or come to fruition. I think you understand the point I am making here though.
Original post from Know Nothing

While we are talking about motivation and complacency...where is the motivation for MLS players to improve? Salary cap restrictions stagnate teams to the point where there is little competition for places so a player can coast at a certain level and get by. Players used to playing at a certain level will have difficulty rising to the next one. At least these "reserve" players are exposed to a higher level with their teams so they know what they must do to reach that next level and if they do not they know the consequences. What are the consequences for the aforementioned MLS players if they have a drop in form?
I'm not sure why you are bringing this up here?

First, MLS is a complex league and there are many reasons why players choose to enter the league, as well as stay in it. There are reasons why players get stuck in MLS that are beyond the "well they should just go somewhere else or another team will buy them if they are good enough'. That type of argument demonstrates what little knowledge and understanding one has of both the league itself and the transfer dealings of clubs both domestic and abroad.

Second, I didn't mention any MLS players in the post you are referring to, nor did you in the lead up to this statement. So...?

Lastly, any reserve player should not be called up to the national team. Certainly there can be an exception to the rule, but by and large, that should not be commonplace. We don't want to reward young talent the way Mexico praised Gio and push them towards that trajectory, do we?

Also, if a player isn't performing, or if there is a drop in form, or they play in MLS and sit the bench or aren't performing, then the solution is quite simple - they do not get called into the national team.
Original post from Know Nothing

Trapp, Delgado, and Roldan have their places cemented in their teams and yet they are lacking at the international level. They may be hungry to make it to the next level, but nobody is knocking down the door to offer them the chance and they will never get that playing in MLS.

Here is a hot take for you...calling in these players may force the likes of Delgado, Trapp, and Roldan to realize they have competition in the wings so they had better get their act together and improve. Motivation works both ways and in this respect is much healthier for the USMNT because it will be about talent and not the fact they are playing first team minutes.
I never brought up these players, so I don't understand why you are bringing them up now? Low hanging fruit, or throwing the monopoly board up in air maybe?

Newsflash - much of our pool is lacking at the international level right now. This is part of the fantasy problem that many seem to have. That a bunch of kids who are in reserves and not yet good enough to make the bench for their first teams in Europe are somehow going to make us a world power. That all we need to do is play them and everyone will see their quality and we will somehow magically become really really good and all of those players will go on to being starters at their clubs and become shining examples of the talent in our youth ranks. All we have to do is just call in these kids who aren't even rated by their club teams yet and we will be in good shape.

Yeah... and I crap rainbows and fart fairy dust.

The reality is that talent is about first team minutes. Generally speaking, if a player is good enough they will be playing first team football somewhere. If they are good enough, they will at least be on the bench for their club team and get minutes. The reality is that if the player is not doing that, and is stuck in the youth/reserves, then they aren't good enough. Not yet at least. And if they were, the coaches who see them day in and day out would think otherwise. Of course there are some exceptions - but that really won't be disputed by any reputable soccer mind - coach or player (not armchair analyst).

And if they are in the reserves and not playing, we should not be calling them up. Want to progress with your club career (aka make more money)??? Well, an easy way to do that is by featuring for you national team. If you are a national team regular, it increases your exposure to potential suitors and increase the values for your services in both transfer price and wage. If a player want to progress, make it clear that we aren't calling in reserves, have them fight for their place to get minutes for their clubs, reward that fight and first team experience with a call to the national team, which in turn they can parlay into higher wages and better opportunities for clubs.

You (and many others) want to talk about the European model. Point blank - European teams follow this model. They do not call in you and reserve team players. They do not call in guys who are "promising" but have yet to break the first team. They call in players who are getting first team minutes. And if players are not - tough. Its on the player to prove to the national team that they are good enough.

Talent, first team minutes at the club level, and national team call-ups all go hand in hand.
Original post from Know Nothing

I have not called for any of these players to be regulars, just to have them called in to give them the same opportunities given to players I perceive to be their inferiors. If the goal is just to qualify for the World Cup, then by all means keep doing things the way we have and may have a decent shot at making that happen. If the goal is to win a World Cup, then we need to do more and identify ANY player that can help.
If we want to win the WC, why not follow the model of the nations who have accomplished that? Nations who have won the WC do not follow the model you are suggesting. Sorry, they just don't.

If you would like to fact check me or find any reputable or example that counters my statements, I would be more than happy to see it. But as of now, sorry, your argument is a farce.

Lilshmike
Post #334
Sunday November 25, 2018 3:27pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from blaise213

Damn you guys need to get paid for all this effort. I'm gonna back a point bjelks brought up that a lot of these reverse sides our youth players are playing in (Europe) could beat most of the MLS teams. There's too much over value in playing for MLS. Werder Bremem U-23 would beat a lot of MLS teams.
This honestly might be one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on this site.

Tell me, what were the last 5 full games of Werder Bremen U23 soccer that you have watched? Outside of Isaiah Young and Sargent, can you even name 3 guys on the Werder Bremen U23 team who you actually know (without looking at wikipedia or searching the internet for an answer)?

There might be a few reserve sides in Europe who could beat an MLS team or two. But in no way would those teams be considered better than most MLS teams.

Just as you are claiming that people are placing too much value on MLS, you are placing way too much value on Europe. See the comment in my previous post about crapping rainbows and farting fairy dust.

Know Nothing
Post #335
Sunday November 25, 2018 7:08pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
@lilishmike

So you proved my point with Gio...he was in the reserves and was good enough to play for Mexico.

Know Nothing
Post #336
Sunday November 25, 2018 7:30pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Know Nothing

@lilishmike

So you proved my point with Gio...he was in the reserves and was good enough to play for Mexico.


....and motivation is an individualistic thing. You are making an assumption that all players are like Gio, when they clearly are not. Parks could have taken the easy route and elected to join MLS but he wanted something more...which to me speaks of a high motivation to improve and succeed.

Know Nothing
Post #337
Sunday November 25, 2018 9:12pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
You want a real world example to counter Gio...Martin Odegaard. He was getting caps for Norway while in the Real Madrid reserves.

db707
Post #338
Sunday November 25, 2018 9:34pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 723
Original post from Know Nothing

You want a real world example to counter Gio...Martin Odegaard. He was getting caps for Norway while in the Real Madrid reserves.


Odegaard also had 23 senior caps for Stromsgodset in Norway before going to Real Madrid. Harry Wilson for Wales comes to mind as one guy who was picked from youth level and given at least one senior cap without having played a senior club match.

Know Nothing
Post #339
Sunday November 25, 2018 9:58pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Lilshmike

This honestly might be one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on this site.

Tell me, what were the last 5 full games of Werder Bremen U23 soccer that you have watched? Outside of Isaiah Young and Sargent, can you even name 3 guys on the Werder Bremen U23 team who you actually know (without looking at wikipedia or searching the internet for an answer)?

There might be a few reserve sides in Europe who could beat an MLS team or two. But in no way would those teams be considered better than most MLS teams.

Just as you are claiming that people are placing too much value on MLS, you are placing way too much value on Europe. See the comment in my previous post about crapping rainbows and farting fairy dust.


Well maybe not the Bremen reserves, but I dare say the Chelsea reserves and probably the Benfica reserves could.

Lilshmike
Post #340
Sunday November 25, 2018 10:11pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

....and motivation is an individualistic thing. You are making an assumption that all players are like Gio, when they clearly are not. Parks could have taken the easy route and elected to join MLS but he wanted something more...which to me speaks of a high motivation to improve and succeed.
As I said, certainly there are exceptions, but it shouldn't be commonplace. Has Mexico won the World Cup? No.

And yes, certainly every player is different with respect to what motivates them. But again, find a reputable source/player who thinks that the WC is not the pinnacle of soccer.

With respect to Parks, who cares? High motivation means nothing if a player is not good enough. Look at Marc Pelosi. Gedion Zelalem. People said the same about Freddy Adu. Do not mix up motivation with talent. Yes, although they may cross when it comes to player development, those are still two completely different things.

MLS is not the "easy" route as you, bjelks, blaise, and others keep promoting. There are factors that lead a player to choose MLS that are far beyond that statement. Again, that is a farce, it is low hanging fruit, demonstrates a lack of understanding in the entire debate over the topic of players playing overseas, and its throwing the monopoly board around the room when you have no better explanation as to why someone plays where they play.

Julian Green is from Germany. He plays in Germany.
CCV is from England. He plays in England.
Dest is from the Netherlands. He plays in the Netherlands.
Tyler Adam's is from the USA. He plays in the USA.

I could go on, but I wont. There are a number of factors that contribute to players going to other nations and playing vs staying at home. Do some research on the topic.

Also, the example of Odegaard was poor because it was inaccurate. Not only that, but what has he been doing recently? He practically fell into obscurity. Hes getting things back on track a little bit, but that's one of the problems with promoting young kids before they've really done anything.

Not only that, but do you want players to be "good enough like Gio was? Or do you want them to realize their full potential? The answer to that is pretty obvious.

Harry Wilson, sure. You could throw out a few more examples with lower to mid level national teams, but none are world powers. None are very good. Again, there are exceptions to the rule, but it is not commonplace for any respectable national team, let alone WC winning caliber, to call up reserve and youth players who are not playing first team football. It just isn't.

If you guys want to follow the European model so bad, then hop on board. What I'm saying is what the best European nations do.

Lilshmike
Post #341
Sunday November 25, 2018 10:31pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

Well maybe not the Bremen reserves, but I dare say the Chelsea reserves and probably the Benfica reserves could.
Benfica?? Come on now... Talk to any scout for the Portuguese league. Outside of Porto, Benfica and Sporting, it's no better than MLS. They import a lot of 2nd and 3rd division talent from South America (specifically Brazil). Its top heavy, and the league as a whole is not as good as people think.

Again, too much emphasis is being placed on playing in Europe.

If Chelsea were to bring back every player in loan and stick them in the reserves, then sure, they would be a decent team and one of the better - if not best - in MLS. But that's not the reality of the situation. So I doubt it.

Speaking of Chelsea, what about Marco van Ginkel? Talented, but stuck in the reserves. Have the Netherlands called him up to play since he isn't playing first team football (either at Chelsea or on loan)? Nope.

I just dont really see any U23 team in Europe "beating most MLS teams". Comparing it to MLS, Ballou Tabla left MLS to join Barca B (one may argue one of the better reserve teams in Europe), and gets consistent playing time. For those MLS haters and Euro lovers - either MLS is better than you're giving credit, or some of these Euro teams (specifically the reserves) aren't as good as you may like to think.

Know Nothing
Post #342
Sunday November 25, 2018 11:22pm

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Lilshmike

Benfica?? Come on now... Talk to any scout for the Portuguese league. Outside of Porto, Benfica and Sporting, it's no better than MLS. They import a lot of 2nd and 3rd division talent from South America (specifically Brazil). Its top heavy, and the league as a whole is not as good as people think.

Again, too much emphasis is being placed on playing in Europe.

If Chelsea were to bring back every player in loan and stick them in the reserves, then sure, they would be a decent team and one of the better - if not best - in MLS. But that's not the reality of the situation. So I doubt it.

Speaking of Chelsea, what about Marco van Ginkel? Talented, but stuck in the reserves. Have the Netherlands called him up to play since he isn't playing first team football (either at Chelsea or on loan)? Nope.

I just dont really see any U23 team in Europe "beating most MLS teams". Comparing it to MLS, Ballou Tabla left MLS to join Barca B (one may argue one of the better reserve teams in Europe), and gets consistent playing time. For those MLS haters and Euro lovers - either MLS is better than you're giving credit, or some of these Euro teams (specifically the reserves) aren't as good as you may like to think.


I spoke of Benfica, not the Portuguese league. Don't change the topic.

And yes, I meant the current Chelsea U-23 team, not the players on loan. I do think you underestimate the level of professionalism instilled in these players that are trained in Euro academies.

Marco Van Ginkel is coming off a second ACL surgery so in reality is that a fair comparison? Besides, the Dutch are in a rebuild just like us and favor Franky DeJong. Oh, and he was called up while at PSV on loan.

Ballou Tabla? The Canadian International playing in a RESERVE team? And it is laughable how you try to elevate a whole leagues quality through the talent of one one individual.

How this whole debate has become sidetracked is beyond me. The point I have been trying to make is that we need to cast a wider net since it appears we are still lacking in talent. It would be ideal if a player has current first team minutes, but at this juncture of the game we should be holding tryouts. Let's see what they can offer, make notes, hold honest discussions with the players on where they are and what we would like to see and then reevaluate every few months.

Nobody's spot should be automatic...unfortunately right now I can think of one or two players whose positions seem automatic but in my opinion not deserved.

Lilshmike
Post #343
Monday November 26, 2018 12:20am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

I spoke of Benfica, not the Portuguese league. Don't change the topic.

And yes, I meant the current Chelsea U-23 team, not the players on loan. I do think you underestimate the level of professionalism instilled in these players that are trained in Euro academies.

Marco Van Ginkel is coming off a second ACL surgery so in reality is that a fair comparison? Besides, the Dutch are in a rebuild just like us and favor Franky DeJong. Oh, and he was called up while at PSV on loan.

Ballou Tabla? The Canadian International playing in a RESERVE team? And it is laughable how you try to elevate a whole leagues quality through the talent of one one individual.

How this whole debate has become sidetracked is beyond me. The point I have been trying to make is that we need to cast a wider net since it appears we are still lacking in talent. It would be ideal if a player has current first team minutes, but at this juncture of the game we should be holding tryouts. Let's see what they can offer, make notes, hold honest discussions with the players on where they are and what we would like to see and then reevaluate every few months.

Nobody's spot should be automatic...unfortunately right now I can think of one or two players whose positions seem automatic but in my opinion not deserved.
I highly doubt Benfica's reserves would be capable of beating most MLS teams - as my statements about reserve teams said. I bring up the Portuguese league as a whole because Benfica B plays in the second division of that league... meaning that the quality is low. If MLS is seen as being inferior, then the Portuguese second division should be seen as lower than that - because the reality is that it is.

BTW, Benfica B lost to both Everton U23 and Brighton and Hove Albion U23 teams recently... yeah... So are Brighton's U23s one of the best in Europe and capable of beating most MLS teams? No.

Professionalism and talent are two different things. They are not the same thing. Players can have a high level or professionalism and suck, and vise versa.

Yes, van Ginkel was called up to the Dutch national team while he was on loan... getting first team minutes. Thats my entire point.

Yes, Ballou Tabla. Playing in a reserve team. The point was about the claim that European reserves are better than most MLS teams. I used him merely as an example.

It's fine to cast a wider net. Let's start with players who actually play first team football before casting out to youth and reserves who have not played first team minutes yet. Sabbi, fine. Gall, sure. Novakovich, sounds good.

What we shouldn't be doing is calling in every person who is in Europe, on the books for a club with a somewhat recognizable name, and overlooking players of the same age/position who play in other leagues (MLS included).

That's what many on this site are calling for. Random kids they've never seen play outside of a few highlights, maybe a youth national team game, and they read some random articles on. That's nonsense. No respectable national team would do that. We shouldn't do it either.

Look at the point I made months ago in the Camp Cupcake thread. I tend to agree with you on trying to identify more players, but it needs to be done properly and in a better manner than how the USSF is seemingly doing it up to this point.

Know Nothing
Post #344
Monday November 26, 2018 12:40am

Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts: 1,476
Original post from Lilshmike

What we shouldn't be doing is calling in every person who is in Europe, on the books for a club with a somewhat recognizable name, and overlooking players of the same age/position who play in other leagues (MLS included).

That's what many on this site are calling for. Random kids they've never seen play outside of a few highlights, maybe a youth national team game, and they read some random articles on. That's nonsense. No respectable national team would do that. We shouldn't do it either.

Look at the point I made months ago in the Camp Cupcake thread. I tend to agree with you on trying to identify more players, but it needs to be done properly and in a better manner than how the USSF is seemingly doing it up to this point.


Fair enough, but the four players I mentioned have trained with their respective first teams. Scott is getting first team minutes on loan and Holmes has played first team minutes for Derby. Surely at the very least a call to a camp to assess where they are and how they fit in would be beneficial.

Lilshmike
Post #345
Monday November 26, 2018 12:48am

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 870
Original post from Know Nothing

Fair enough, but the four players I mentioned have trained with their respective first teams. Scott is getting first team minutes on loan and Holmes has played first team minutes for Derby. Surely at the very least a call to a camp to assess where they are and how they fit in would be beneficial.
One thing I've thought might be worth while is calling in about 5-6 "training players" per camp. Call in a roster of 23 for a game, and have 5-6 guys called in who are there simply to train and take part in the camp. That way, you can get some more numbers in training/scrimmages, assess those players with the rest of the group, and integrate them into the team without fully calling them in.

This way, you could also call in some guys who are duals without the worry of them having to declare or file a one time switch.

Like this last camp, guys like Gooch, Holmes, Sabbi, Nova, Siebatcheu, Hamalainen, etc. could have been brought in simply to train with the team (assuming it did not conflict with or jeopardize their position at their clubs).

I'm sure there are reasonable objections to this, but it's just a thought.

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