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chris_thebassplayer
San Jose
Post #61
Friday August 3, 2018 6:38am

Joined May 2013
Total Posts: 1,415
Well, Boyd couldn't stay healthy, which was a shame. He was never the same after multiple knee injuries. Imo, Jozy won't make the next WC final 23

But down the road, I'm really hoping Maurice Malone gets very excited to play for the US.

I think we're going to see wonderful things from Sargent...with Puliisc underneath. Those guys read the game at the same high level. I think their combo play will be something special.

bjelks
Post #62
Friday August 3, 2018 7:55am

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Philip

There doesn't have to be a clear difference in talent, there is a clear undeniable difference in production and at the end of the day that is what matters. If we were talking teenagers then talent matters but we aren't. These guys are the finished product, they aren't getting any better regardless of what league or country they are playing in. Whatever the reasons for Wondo or anyone else to be on the team are irrelevant. We aren't talking Beckerman vs Morales here. You are deflecting because in all objective measures Altidore was superior to Boyd and that will never change. I will say this though if Boyd had superior talent then that is reason for him to be kept as far away from the young guys on the team now as possible. Altidore did more with less, he had less talent, less drive, weaker mentality, poor work rate and yet he still produced more than Boyd. Based on your analysis of their talent, Boyd clearly has some other issue that prevents him from succeeding. I don't want him teaching any of these kids to be like him. I would rather they learn to perform above their talent level like Altidore did. We might have our first true American soccer star.


Poor poor @philip. You can't objectively compare the call ups of someone who developed in the US system with with someone who didn't and struggled with serious injuries. Production is a result of opportunities, health, and quality. You can't compare the production of someone who got more opportunities due to familiarity with the system with someone who didn't develop in the system. Wondo etc were examples of less talented players than Jozy that developed in the system that received unmerited favor in call ups. You sound like someone who has never played the game or understands how national programs work. Altidore was the biggest transfer in mls history at the time and an example of someone who became the biggest failure in us Soccer transfer history. When I say less drive and a weaker mentality, I'm specifically speaking to his decision to go to MLS and take a big payday instead of fighting for a spot in a top Euro league and earn respect at the highest level. Again, We've already covered that Boyd was breaking through Bundesliga squads before 3 season ending injuries. Jozy had 70 appearances and 3 goals
earning worst premier league player ever. The current players are more technical and ambitious than Jozy which means if any vet fwd will be a good influence, it should be someone with not only the technical ability to play at the highest level but the mental fortitude to continue to fight for your place when the situation isn't ideal.
goalsense
Philip
Post #63
Friday August 3, 2018 11:59am

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from bjelks

Poor poor @philip. You can't objectively compare the call ups of someone who developed in the US system with with someone who didn't and struggled with serious injuries. Production is a result of opportunities, health, and quality. You can't compare the production of someone who got more opportunities due to familiarity with the system with someone who didn't develop in the system. Wondo etc were examples of less talented players than Jozy that developed in the system that received unmerited favor in call ups. You sound like someone who has never played the game or understands how national programs work. Altidore was the biggest transfer in mls history at the time and an example of someone who became the biggest failure in us Soccer transfer history. When I say less drive and a weaker mentality, I'm specifically speaking to his decision to go to MLS and take a big payday instead of fighting for a spot in a top Euro league and earn respect at the highest level. Again, We've already covered that Boyd was breaking through Bundesliga squads before 3 season ending injuries. Jozy had 70 appearances and 3 goals
earning worst premier league player ever. The current players are more technical and ambitious than Jozy which means if any vet fwd will be a good influence, it should be someone with not only the technical ability to play at the highest level but the mental fortitude to continue to fight for your place when the situation isn't ideal.

Boyd is not fighting for his place, he went home where he was comfortable. He went to play in 2.Bundesliga where he knows he belongs. There are plenty of players who did not come up through the MLS system and still made huge impacts with the USMNT. They were given one chance and they took it. Boyd was given 14 chances and he failed to capitalize. That is on him.
I will say I was disappointed when Bradley and Altidore chose to sign with Toronto and I think it affected their level of play. I do understand why they would do it though. They are professionals athletes and as all professional athletes in every sport they have a very small window of time to make the money they will need to take care of themselves and their families. The best that they can hope for is to play until they are 40, but that stills leaves them with another 40 or more years of life to take care of. They don't know what they will be able to do after they are done playing, they need this big pay day to ensure their families are taken care of. You assume that Altidore is weak and Boyd is not based on the country that they are playing in, but there are many factors that go into that decision that you are completely ignoring.

Lilshmike
Post #64
Friday August 3, 2018 1:53pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
Original post from bjelks

Poor poor @philip. You can't objectively compare the call ups of someone who developed in the US system with with someone who didn't and struggled with serious injuries. Production is a result of opportunities, health, and quality. You can't compare the production of someone who got more opportunities due to familiarity with the system with someone who didn't develop in the system. Wondo etc were examples of less talented players than Jozy that developed in the system that received unmerited favor in call ups. You sound like someone who has never played the game or understands how national programs work. Altidore was the biggest transfer in mls history at the time and an example of someone who became the biggest failure in us Soccer transfer history. When I say less drive and a weaker mentality, I'm specifically speaking to his decision to go to MLS and take a big payday instead of fighting for a spot in a top Euro league and earn respect at the highest level. Again, We've already covered that Boyd was breaking through Bundesliga squads before 3 season ending injuries. Jozy had 70 appearances and 3 goals
earning worst premier league player ever. The current players are more technical and ambitious than Jozy which means if any vet fwd will be a good influence, it should be someone with not only the technical ability to play at the highest level but the mental fortitude to continue to fight for your place when the situation isn't ideal.


Lilshmike
Post #65
Friday August 3, 2018 2:04pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
@bjelks

But actually, you're beating a dead horse at this point. Just stop with this BS. You constantly contradict your argument and shift away from all points that prove what you're saying to be nonsense. And just to point out, you say that Boyd is "one good season away from the Premier League"... well, pretty much any player in the world is only "one good season away". That applies to Altidore as well (they are the same age you know). And you constantly choose to ignore Jozy's time in Holland while referring to his time in England. Well guess what, he walked into a bad situation at both Hull and Sunderland, and as you have said, sometimes performance and stats don't tell the entire picture. I watched most of his games (that were televised) when he was at Sunderland, and although he wasn't scoring, he was involved in a lot of their goals, he just wasn't the one who had the last touch of the ball. Your own argument is working against you. So again, what you are saying is nonsense.

@Philip

You are right, and I agree with most of what you are saying. Like you, I am not advocating for Altidore to be a starter or saying he is our best forward. He isn't in my opinion. However, he should at least be on the bench and if we are talking about our striker pool and the forwards who will score the most this year (which this thread is about), Altidore needs to be included in that discussion. And until a player is playing consistently at the senior level and scoring goals (which Boyd is not) they should not be in the discussion. If that changes, sure. But until then, they are irrelevant.

bjelks
Post #66
Friday August 3, 2018 4:26pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Philip

Boyd is not fighting for his place, he went home where he was comfortable. He went to play in 2.Bundesliga where he knows he belongs. There are plenty of players who did not come up through the MLS system and still made huge impacts with the USMNT. They were given one chance and they took it. Boyd was given 14 chances and he failed to capitalize. That is on him.
I will say I was disappointed when Bradley and Altidore chose to sign with Toronto and I think it affected their level of play. I do understand why they would do it though. They are professionals athletes and as all professional athletes in every sport they have a very small window of time to make the money they will need to take care of themselves and their families. The best that they can hope for is to play until they are 40, but that stills leaves them with another 40 or more years of life to take care of. They don't know what they will be able to do after they are done playing, they need this big pay day to ensure their families are taken care of. You assume that Altidore is weak and Boyd is not based on the country that they are playing in, but there are many factors that go into that decision that you are completely ignoring.


@phillip FYI, Boyd was playing in the Bundesliga and his team was relegated. He never went to play in the Bundesliga 2. He decided to stay in the Bundesliga 2 because he knows that with promotion he'll automatically be playing Bundesliga again. I never said there were players that weren't developed in America that never made impacts, but every case is different and every non American developed player doesn't get the same amount of chances. I will say that he hasn't the opportunities Jozy has had because of lack of familiarity with the managers. What I can say, is that, Bradley got many more chances after bad games than J Jones who was our best player in the WC. To say that Boyd played 14 bad guys, is nonsense. If he has, tell me which games and what he did wrong. I can easily say Jozy had at least 50 bad or avg games, but that's overkill. There is nothing to assume based on country played in. If Jozy cared about the level of his football, he'd be in a 2nd division trying to get back to a first in a top league like Boyd. That's how everyone outside of America looks at the game.
goalsense
bjelks
Post #67
Friday August 3, 2018 4:37pm

Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts: 796
Original post from Lilshmike

@bjelks

But actually, you're beating a dead horse at this point. Just stop with this BS. You constantly contradict your argument and shift away from all points that prove what you're saying to be nonsense. And just to point out, you say that Boyd is "one good season away from the Premier League"... well, pretty much any player in the world is only "one good season away". That applies to Altidore as well (they are the same age you know). And you constantly choose to ignore Jozy's time in Holland while referring to his time in England. Well guess what, he walked into a bad situation at both Hull and Sunderland, and as you have said, sometimes performance and stats don't tell the entire picture. I watched most of his games (that were televised) when he was at Sunderland, and although he wasn't scoring, he was involved in a lot of their goals, he just wasn't the one who had the last touch of the ball. Your own argument is working against you. So again, what you are saying is nonsense.

@Philip

You are right, and I agree with most of what you are saying. Like you, I am not advocating for Altidore to be a starter or saying he is our best forward. He isn't in my opinion. However, he should at least be on the bench and if we are talking about our striker pool and the forwards who will score the most this year (which this thread is about), Altidore needs to be included in that discussion. And until a player is playing consistently at the senior level and scoring goals (which Boyd is not) they should not be in the discussion. If that changes, sure. But until then, they are irrelevant.


If you're going to blatantly be biased with your American fanboying and ignore the benefit of prospective promotion from division 2 to 1, we won't be able to communicate civilly. When I say Boyd is one good season away from Bundesliga or Premier League, he literally can be promoted if he finishes in the top 3 if the league. Also, because the league is respected by the top 4 division 1 leagues, if he has a good yr, he will be bidded on by a top league team. Jozy on the other hand has had 4 good yrs in a row in MLS and we've seen no reports of bids. This is an example of why not everyone is one good season away from a promotion. Either scouts don't respect MLS or don't think his ability translates to higher levels. Now, Boyd is in a more respected league for being rated and if he can stay fit and score goals, he should be in the discussion. That's how football works.
goalsense
Lilshmike
Post #68
Friday August 3, 2018 5:17pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
Original post from bjelks

@phillip FYI, Boyd was playing in the Bundesliga and his team was relegated. He never went to play in the Bundesliga 2. He decided to stay in the Bundesliga 2 because he knows that with promotion he'll automatically be playing Bundesliga again. I never said there were players that weren't developed in America that never made impacts, but every case is different and every non American developed player doesn't get the same amount of chances. I will say that he hasn't the opportunities Jozy has had because of lack of familiarity with the managers. What I can say, is that, Bradley got many more chances after bad games than J Jones who was our best player in the WC. To say that Boyd played 14 bad guys, is nonsense. If he has, tell me which games and what he did wrong. I can easily say Jozy had at least 50 bad or avg games, but that's overkill. There is nothing to assume based on country played in. If Jozy cared about the level of his football, he'd be in a 2nd division trying to get back to a first in a top league like Boyd. That's how everyone outside of America looks at the game.
"@phillip FYI, Boyd was playing in the Bundesliga and his team was relegated. He never went to play in the Bundesliga 2. He decided to stay in the Bundesliga 2 because he knows that with promotion he'll automatically be playing Bundesliga again."

Dude, you're so wrong. RB Leipzig was in 2 Bundesliga when Boyd left Rapid to join them. They were in 2 Bundesliga for the first 2 seasons he was there. He played nothing more than reserve team football until he went to Rapid, then went back to 2 Bundesliga. He got injured, didn't play. They got promoted to the Bundesliga, then he left because he was not going to play for them because they had better players. Again, you are incorrect with your facts.

Seriously, dude. Follow your own advice and do some research.

Lilshmike
Post #69
Friday August 3, 2018 5:38pm

Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts: 863
@bjelks

And one more thing, let's assume that Darmstadt gets promoted, and that Boyd plays consistently and does respectable (which is something I hope happens, just FYI).

If Darmstadt gets promoted, that means that they will get a big bump in pay for having joined the Bundesliga. And if history and common sense tells us anything, the first thing they are going to do with that money is invest in new players to make their team better. And more times than not, the first position that teams upgrade is at forward. So there is a STRONG possibility that if the stars align for Darmstadt, Boyd will end up either on the bench or leaving to a lower team (2 Bundesliga likely) to get playing time.

Congratulations, your arguments are still working against you.

hamsamwich
Post #70
Friday August 3, 2018 10:46pm

Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts: 2,765
Overseas the talk is about a player "finding their level". Jody Altidore himself was a championship level player over promoted to the premier league. He's a 2nd tier player like Boyd, Green and many other American players, regardless of where they play. This is a 4 year old argument in my opinion, and maybe 4 years ago Boyd was consensus choice, maybe not. For all of Altidores faults, one thing that can be said is that the midfielders and outside backs and other forwards never really got their heads up to find him in the box. Poor possession and poor ideas lead to poor stats. Something they also have in common is bad timing of injuries. Altidore hasn't been bad for USA, for the most part he's been unavailable in the big tournaments in his career due to injury so it's hard to completely hate on the guy considering.

Josh Sargent, Weah and down the line guys like de la Fuente and others will push to be a more dynamic forward than the hold up play we get from a Boyd or Jozy. Or historically, the great Brian mcBride. I look forward to Sargent breaking through for Bremen sometime this year, he has what the two guys we argue about don't, the ability to make plays for himself and others.

Philip
Post #71
Friday August 3, 2018 10:52pm

Joined Sep 2012
Total Posts: 18
Original post from hamsamwich

Overseas the talk is about a player "finding their level". Jody Altidore himself was a championship level player over promoted to the premier league. He's a 2nd tier player like Boyd, Green and many other American players, regardless of where they play. This is a 4 year old argument in my opinion, and maybe 4 years ago Boyd was consensus choice, maybe not. For all of Altidores faults, one thing that can be said is that the midfielders and outside backs and other forwards never really got their heads up to find him in the box. Poor possession and poor ideas lead to poor stats. Something they also have in common is bad timing of injuries. Altidore hasn't been bad for USA, for the most part he's been unavailable in the big tournaments in his career due to injury so it's hard to completely hate on the guy considering.

Josh Sargent, Weah and down the line guys like de la Fuente and others will push to be a more dynamic forward than the hold up play we get from a Boyd or Jozy. Or historically, the great Brian mcBride. I look forward to Sargent breaking through for Bremen sometime this year, he has what the two guys we argue about don't, the ability to make plays for himself and others.

Agreed.

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The final stretch of the English league season is upon us, with several Americans on the verge of relegation with their teams.
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